Great discussion all around. Appreciate everyone's viewpoints & contributions. Kinda busy, but a couple of quick thoughts: As others say, I don't think we are going to significantly de-industrialize any time soon - hopefully we can move quickly towards doing it smarter. I'm not totally opposed to industry or economy of scale ...but we've got to learn to do it with more closed-loops, better designs that turn our problem 'wastes' into resources, etc. We have the know-how of how to meet our basic needs and restore ecological health. We know how to regreen the desert (Geoff Lawton) or restore degraded pasture land while grazing MORE animals (Allan Savory) - As Olpea pointed out, the political will isn't there. So much inertia built up in this approaching-train-wreck of an economic system. How much crappier do things have to get before the growth-at-all-costs nonsense gets tossed? While the rest of the world is figuring that out that growth at all costs, I work on facing up to my own consumption, which is humbling. I am doing my best to withdraw from 'feeding the beast', growing what I can at home, saving and sharing seed & seedlings. Buying what I can't grow from local & organic producers. Most of all, my wife and I just refuse to live a consumerist lifestyle. I laugh every time I take out the garbage because there really is so little of it. We could easily go a couple months without taking out the trash, the next step is cutting down on the recyclables. No-till: Fukuoka did it to good effect with rice, equalling yields of his counterparts using 'green revolution' approaches. There are pockets of Japanese farmers here and there quietly using Fukuoka's method. Hopefully, I'll have the chance to visit one of these farms next time I visit Japan. In the west, I have heard of a lot of people experimenting with no-till or perennial grains, interesting glimpses, but no stunning successes. After a few thousand years of breeding annual grains for till systems, it's not surprising that progress might take a few generations. John Jeavon's biointensive offers small-scale grain production which builds biomass every year, but that is backyard scale - beds double dug by hand. There are many different growing systems out there that will bring high yields without undermining future ability to produce. I don't think there are any one-size-fits-all solutions, but different for each situation. Lastly, I have to emphasize that, despite occasional differences of opinion, I think horticulturalists and farmers, conventional or organic, are some of the best people on earth.

I've wintersown tomatoes for years now with great success. Until this year. The tomatoes sprouted then stagnated, and I think it's because I uncovered the jugs too early when we had a few hot days. Then it got cool, damp and almost sunless for what seemed like weeks. They recovered and grew normally, well, as normally as any tomatoes did this season. We had a lot of rain in June and July and a heat wave right around the time when many plants should have been setting fruit. The result for many in my area is the worst tomato season in memory with plants just decimated by septoria. And the tomatoes I did get were so-so, even some of my favorites lacked their usual taste. But I'll be wintersowing again come late February. Any farmer or gardener will tell you that some years you win and some you lose -- you just keep trying. So give it a whirl, and you can always hedge your bets by starting a few inside for your peace of mind. I think you'll find that the wintersown ones will be smaller, but with better root systems they will quickly catch up once you transplant. Caryl

azruss, MAGTAG is one of a group of regional tomato festivals loosely organized by folks here and on the website t0mat0ville.c0m (replace zeros with letters). There's Tomatopalooza in NC, DATE in Detroit, CHOPTAG in Cincinnati, SETTfest in SE TX, the Midwest Tomato Fest, NORCATT in No. CA, SPLATT in the SC Piedmont, the Buffalo-Niagara tomato festival, etc. etc. Previous MAGTAG festivals have drawn anywhere from 30-50 attendees, depending upon the weather (one year it was 90+ and humid). Our covered pavilion holds 100 and includes four - count 'em - grills! This will be our fourth year at the Baltimore location. Although some folks have suggested otherwise, it's conveniently located near all the major highways, as we usually have attendees from Maryland, Virginia, New Jersey, NYC, West Virginia, Delaware, and Pennsylvania. We've even had folks from Hawaii and the Midwest! People bring samples of their harvests, and we have a tasting to determine the top ten favorite varieties. We also determine the largest tomato, and the food features tomato-based goodies from attendees, a BLT bar, and Greg Flynn's homebrew. I've attached a link to the thread summarizing last year's event for you. I think Liz's photos are still available for viewing, if you scroll down to "Tomato Festival" in her Webshots album. We'd all love for you to join us, if you can make it down to Crabtown for the festival! Here is a link that might be useful: MAGTAG 2008 - A Resounding Success!

Daniel, I have experienced very similar results this year in northern MN. All seeds were started at the same time, planted out at the same time, and treated the same. 2 of my early varieties (Glacier & Bloody Butcher) did beat Cherokee Purple, but only by 8 or 9 days. About 10 days after the 1st early small tomatoes, I picked a Giant Belgium that weighted 1# 8oz. At about 2 weeks after the earliest fruit, several 1# plus C.P. were being picked. The 1st fruit from my "Early Pick" variety were just starting about this same time. However, other large varieties, are very late. Mortgage Lifter, Black Krim, Super Steak, Super Beef Steak, are all very Sloooow. All plants are growing in the same conditions. This is the Giant Belgium that was only about 10 days behind to early little tomatoes: A very strange year.