Do not plant a new plant that I've never grown before in newly tilled ground that still has a lot of weed seeds.

I decided to plant melons for the first time this year. And I put them in a patch of ground that had never been used for growing. When the seedlings came up, I could not tell the difference between them and the weed seedlings. Sigh. :(

Angie

Lindalana wrote:

>Need bigger and better sprayerâ¦

Here are some sprayers; hopefully youâÂÂll find one that youâÂÂll like:

Solo (1-Liter)

Solo (2-Liter)

Chapin (1-Gallon)

Smith (2-Gallon)

Solo (2-Gallon)

Solo (2-1/4 Gallon)

Solo (4-Gallon)

Chapin (4-Gallon)

Hudson Never Pump Bak-Pak 4 Gallon Battery Operated Sprayer

Daniel, thanks for the links! I currently have Solo 2 L and love it but need something else to add. I do use lots of foliar sprays.
I have started using a lot of aerated compost tea and was recommended Rittenhouse sprayer. Not in the budget for this year but next year for sure.

Here is a link that might be useful: sprayer

This goes with my above comment.

5) If you cut a determinate plant that's done producing back to 8-12 inches tall it will regrow into a compact bush and flower again. Will these new flowers will produce ripe fruit before the first frost? I have no idea but I'll find out.

Rodney

Rodney, I don't think the plant will regrow. You might have some 10-15 in. suckers, don't know about flowers, most likely not.

This post was edited by Daniel_NY on Fri, Aug 29, 14 at 7:26

I cut the plants back 10 days ago. They are all currently regrowing from the stems I left behind. They are still very short but the plants that are growing back the quickest currently have flowers on them.

Rodney

sey,

re: # 2: what DETS you have in mind ?

re: # 3: starting EARLIER could solve the problem ?

re: # 4: can I see some pictures of your mini portable hoops and home made W.O.A. ?

Dan, I will make some pictures and post them.
The basic construction of my mini hoop is 3ft by 6ft at the base.(framed by 2" by 3"(about) I use 5 pieces 1/2" pvc, Then of course they are enforces and locked together by 1 by 2 lumber at the peak and two ends.

For W.O.A. I got a roll of rabbit fence wire, make cages of about 12" diameter, 2 ft tall and wrap it with bubble wrap. Bigger the bubble, the better.

#2: I am growing Bush stake, Siletze, Legend, Silvery Fir Tree. But I might add few more.

#3: Starting early here can help. BECAUSE our temperatures warm up REAL slowly and RARELY take off. So every day counts. And by starting (planting out) I mean right around the LFD, with an eye on the forecast

EDIT: picture of a W.O.A

I forgot to mention that my beds will be covered with BLACK plastic. This will help to warm up the soil and prevent rain water from cooling them down. At the plant out I will just cut rounds of about 12", wherein I plant. The remainder area is covered and in such a way that rain water will dance away.

This post was edited by seysonn on Sat, Aug 30, 14 at 18:36

And here is a picture of one of my mini portable hoops. It is now taking a break.haha

It is very dandy. You can remove it when the night lows climb to mid 40s or whatever you feel comfortable with. I also use it during hardening of time

I'm talking about a Greenhouse grown Tomato plants:

The lesson that I learned this year is that - No matter what anyone says on this forum or elsewhere - I will always prune indeterminate tomato plant suckers and allow only two main stems - then four up to six stems per plant - and that is it - no more !!!

On the tomato plants we did not prune suckers or pruned less suckers than usual this year as an experiment - we had a mangled mess of foliage with lousy production and the tomato fruits were smaller - what ever works for you is great - but pruning suckers is the ONLY way to go in a GH - IMO.

Nice, interesting and creative. Tx sey.

> I forgot to mention that my beds will be covered with BLACK plastic.

I use fabric mulch. You think plastic is better than fabric ?

What about straw ?

I use fabric mulch. You think plastic is better than fabric ?

What about straw ?
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Daniel, I use black plastic, not to prevent weeds or retain moisture ; I use it to warm up the soil and keep away excessive rain water. Then I remove them by early July. I have had ZERO weeds. I am not worried about moisture retention her in our normally cool PNW. I used a lot of mulch (straw, pine straw) when I was gardening down in Georgia.

Hudson, I am a proponent of pruning. I do as you have said. I believe excess foliage make no or little contribution for fruits production. Suckers, especially the late comers are like babies that for a good while use plants' resources. Most indeterminats have a lot of foliage (leaves) to to provide the needed photosynthesis.
In my climate, by the time the late branches/suckers are mature enough to produce , there is not much time left to grow and ripen their fruits. Maybe for places that they have long, warm growing season ( 7+ months,) those suckers may actually produce ripe fruits.

seysonn wrote:

> Then I remove them by early July. I have had ZERO weeds.

You have zero weeds in July. How about... August ?

> I used a lot of mulch (straw, pine straw) when I was gardening down in Georgia.

So you don't use straw right now. What kind of mulch did you use this year ?

1. Learned that the "three legged" tomato cages are no good and there was a better 4 legged version for the same price (much more sturdy). Used the GroTall Trellis and will be using it much more for the next season, especially in whiskey barrels.
2. Start early - in March and April
3. Allow new garden beds to settle down before planting heave feeders (like someone else did on this thread). Otherwise a diligent fertilization program is required.

Here is a link that might be useful: Ready to use Tomato Stakes Trellis and Cages

I learned to "dial in" my drip irrigation system. Had a really hard time trying to get the right amount of water. Started with 1g.p.h. emitters, but began getting BER. Changed to two emitters running for approximately 30 min every second day. Great results!

Kimadano wrote:

> I learned to "dial in" my drip irrigation system.

Good for you. It will take some time for me to learn that.

> Had a really hard time trying to get the right amount of water.

You tell meâ¦

> Started with 1g.p.h. emitters, but began getting BER.

I have 1.5 gph, emitters and I have some BER, and some cracking / splitting - mostly on my cherry tomatoes.

> Changed to two emittersâ¦

IâÂÂm sorry I donâÂÂt understand. Do you mean 2 gph emitters ?

> ...running for approximately 30 min every second day.

30 min. ? ONLY ? I think that would water 1-2'' deep, which, imho, is too little.

Every OTHER DAY ? That OFTEN ?

I mean I can understand 1'' per watering, in 20 days you can have 10'' of watered soil, but after that if you keep the same rule - 1'' every other day - by day 30, imho, you might OVERWATER the tomatoes. This is a quick thought, but I'll think again.

Btw, do you use any type of mulch ?

Also, do you use a Soil Moisture Tester ?

> Great results!

Cool ! I'm happy for you.

seysonn wrote:

> Then I remove them by early July. I have had ZERO weeds.

You have zero weeds in July. How about... August ?
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Daniel
No weeds. ZERO. Weeds either grow from some perennial roots or seeds. I would say mostly from seeds. I prevent/fight the weeds going to seed in my backyard and because it is a confined area , wind cannot bring them, maybe except dandelion seeds.

1. For the first time ever, I outsmarted the squirrels.

2. Water only with rainwater. NO CHLORENE infused city water, ever. Keep them moist, avoid stress from dried out soil.

Seysonn, playing devil's advocate here... soils in areas of low rainfall generally have problems with sodium... considering that you will put black plastic sheets over the winter and then keep it for part of the growing season and providing that you use ferts with lots of salts like MG you potentially running into some problems...

Linda, Please explain what do you mean by "salt" ? You don't mean table salt (NaCl), do you.

But I don't understand where the other "SALTs" come from? MG fertilizers that I use have a 3-1-2 formulation and they are water soluble.

I know "N" does not last very long and won't build up. "K" is semi stable. Only "P" accumulates(if applied excessively) and it wont go don with water anyway.

In the course of whole season maybe I use about 5 lbs of fertilizer on about 150 sq-ft area. That is about 0.5 oz per square ft. Let us just say ONE oz per sqr-ft. How can it build up salts?

You obviously know your climate and your soil better. My concern is for applying plastic mulch for such extended period of time and how it is going to reflect on mineral content. You can google salinity of soils or this link will do...
all typical 10-10-10 ferts are usually salts, consisting of urea 46-0-0, triple superphosphate 0-46-0 and potassium chloride 0-0-60, including chloride 40-50%
Urea i.e. nitrogen makes bacteria happy which creates anhydrous ammonia, which reacts with water to produce ammonium hydroxide of pH 11.6, if they coated it with sulfur to create " slow release" fert once sulfur released and reacts to water it creates sulfuric acid which is quite toxic as well.
Thriple superphosphate is very acidic and binds calcium in the soil making them both unavailable until later breakdown by some microbial life.
Potassium chloride often increases chloride levels to 50-200 ppm when level of 2 ppm is sufficient to sterilize drinking water.
If you go to container forum you often hear suggestion on flushing your containers once in a while as not to build up all those levels as it is quite toxic to plants.
So I am getting a bit confused, how preventing rain water in and preventing water evaporation is going to be helpful in your garden.

Here is a link that might be useful: salinity

Hope it's useful.

Here is a link that might be useful: Black Plastic mulch (GardenWeb' thread)

Another link:

Here is a link that might be useful: Using Plastic Mulches and Drip Irrigation for Vegetable Gardens (Advantages & Disadvantages)

Daniel, thanks for digging up post on the black mulch! It seems everyone has to figure out for themselves whether it is beneficial for them to use it or not.
The second link to article is from 01, am sure agriculture went long way since then. Black mulch does certainly increases soil compaction as it ruins soil structure due to removal of beneficials living under.
For 2 and 5- is this better when you operate with chemical salts that do build up? How?
I get it when you created your compost pile and want to cover it for the winter to prevent leaching of nutrients but black mulch over the soil that is managed with chemical ferts is not the same IMHO

This post was edited by lindalana on Tue, Sep 2, 14 at 13:51

all typical 10-10-10 ferts are usually salts,
%%%%%%%%%%%%

Yeah, well chemically they might be categorized as "salt" but they wont become crystalized. That can only happen IFF there is an excessive accumulation far beyond the use and need of the plants.
My garden soil appears to be very healthy as reflected by the growth of the plants. I cannot see the microbes but I find a lot of earth worms in it.

Anyway, we make choices and have to live with it.

Clarification:

I DON"T use black plastic as MULCH, or in DRIP irrigation. I use them just as a means to raise soil temperature early in the season and I remove them once the weather has warmed up.
I use here b/c of our long cool spring and early summer weather. I would've not used it if I was gardening in places like GA , TX, SoCAL....

seysonn, i know what you use it for. i posted those 2 links only for reading, maybe you find something interesting.

Seysonn, I do too use èel cheapoè landscape fabric for this very reason, to warm up the early spring soil. I remove it sometime in June when soil temps are stable and apply mulches. Overall I find soil warming very useful even if it extra work. Since I am on biological gardening pathway it is really helpful to warm soil so all microbes can wake up earlier and start supplying plants with nutrients which they so need in the beginning of the cycle.
I was referring to your lesson list #4 to keep plastic from October over winter and then into spring. Would be interested to know if you will find it useful.

I was referring to your lesson list #4 to keep plastic from October over winter and then into spring. Would be interested to know if you will find it useful.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

yes , Linda.
And I do it because in those months we get about 30 inches of rain (no snow). It just floods the beds, kills even some of the perennial maybe microbes and worms too. PNW, is very very different from ANYWHER in the US. It is more like England, without the winds. .

This year I used 2 types of mulch: Landscape Fabric and

While both are good for protecting the lower leaves against rain water splashing, next year I will use ONLY fabric.

It happened to me a few times that I was watering my plants in the morning - using drip irrigation - checking the weather forecast - everything was ok - and suddenly in the afternoon OUT OF THE BLUE a 1 hr. rain.

The problem with the straw is that it allows 100% of the rainwater to go through. The fabric allows only about 10-20%. Heavier the rain - obviously - less the percentage.

So, in that rainy day, my tomatoes received DOUBLE the water they needed. So, many of my tomatoes were watery and split / cracked - especially the cherries. Later in the season I reduced the watering, and the tomatoes' taste improved dramatically.

Daniel, if you are working organically, landscape fabric could be worst tool to use as it does not allow natural processes to happen and kills microbes. When straw mulch decomposes while a lot of it goes into air, some of it becomes food for microbes.
I hear you on rain as this August was unusual for my area, we had far more rain than we normally do but again I do not water in August at all. Learned that trick from experienced gardener, really gives a boost to tomato taste. With heavy mulch tomatoes do just dandy without extra watering here. I do expect my tomatoes to put roots quite deep though by that time so they can grab water from deeper areas.

lindalana wrote:

>I do not water in August at all.

Now, that's INTERESTING. I will definitely keep that in mind next year. Thank you.

But I have a question: last summer - 2013 - in July / August we had many days in upper 80, some in 90s and a few in upper 90s. That NO watering in August would still apply, in your opinion ?

> ...landscape fabric could be worst tool to use as it does not allow natural processes to happen and kills microbes.

Could you please elaborate ?

This post was edited by Daniel_NY on Fri, Sep 12, 14 at 13:12

Well, interesting and useful thread for all engaged!

I've learned never to vacate during the growing season because things can go south very quickly, and I'm not talking about the Caribbean haha..

I've also learned that I desire more control of my environment - does that make me controlling? LoL

Daniel, what Linda was referring to was the fact that landscape fabric will block organic matter from ever reaching the soil.. Thereby starving beneficial microbes; the foundation of an organic approach.. Mulch is your best friend when it comes to organics and different types will serve different purposes. For example, grass clippings used as mulch will encourage a bacterial dominated soil food web (even more so when some are buried); while leaves or leaf mold will encourage a fungal dominant soil (unless shredded).. This has further implications: grasses, vegetables and annuals prefer their N in the form of nitrates (No3 - bacterial conversion); while perennials, shrubs and trees prefer their N in the form of ammonium (NH4 - fungal conversion).. So by using the correct mulch and creating the correct bacterial/fungal ratios within your soil food web you'll have greater success. =)

I learned, thanks to some of you guys here at the Tomato Forum, to put my tomatoes in slings to keep them from breaking off the vines. Here's a pic of one of the tulle fabric slings. Thanks for the advice, y'all!

Samhain, this is one cool set up! I had plenty of vines needing this support! Am sure going to use it!
Daniel, yep, I do subscribe as Michael said above. Sure, plenty of people use black plastic mulch, would not use it with organic approach though. I like your previous use of black fabric initially in the season and straw later. Do not know if you need your soil warmed up as you are ahead in your spring and that is only reason why I use landscape fabric in my zone.

BER really is about environment as we keep being told. I planted 2 Ananas Noire in pots. One in a 20 gallon pot and one in a 10 gallon pot. The pots were only about 3 feet from each other, were planted with identical soil and were always watered at the same time. The plant in the 10 gallon pot I got almost no fruit from, because they all had BER. And it was for most of the season. The other plant I got the largest tomatoes and almost the largest harvest of any plant this season., second only to sophie's choice for number of fruit. So, had I only grown the one in the smaller pot I might have blamed the variety. Now I know I will plant it again. I really enoyed them. The taste was good and I loved the colors.

I also learned that Ananas Noire makes really funky looking canned tomatoes. :)

Hudson...WY-

I also have a greenhouse- brand new this year and of course I totally overplanted! One bed is 3x12 and I put 7 indeterminate tomatoes in, all with the "stronger" cages. It became a huge, giant jungle mess of foliage, with branches sprawling everywhere and mixing with branches of the adjacent toms. Hubby had to help jerry-rig some metal support posts, but even then, the branches all dropped and bent over the cages a good 2-3 feet. I pruned quite a bit of foliage multiple times to increase the air circulation, so that helped. Tons of toms overall, so production is good, and some of the toms are pretty big, depending on variety. Most are still in the process of ripening.

So my question is- have you already tried the pruning method you spoke of, of having only 2 main stems and then 4-6 stems off each of those? Hubby is planning on devising some sort of system to contain the toms next year but I'm wondering if your method will take care of the problem. Thanks!

Hey drcindy,

Oh my, that must have been one heck of a jungle! Haha
In that amount of space I would have done more like 3 possibly 4 plants max.. You could probably get away with 3 indets and one det. I too have made similar mistakes and it's just so frustrating when they become entangled like that.. For that reason I stay atleast 40" apart (on center) with all my indeterminates.. It just makes the garden more organized, manageable, fun and more healthy for that matter; as an entangled canopy encourages things like pests, fungus, disease etc..

In terms of pruning down to two main stems - I'm not a proponent. I'd simply plant the appropriate amount of plants for such a space and keep up with them.. You could make some nice heavy duty cages (or the hubby can lol), or try out the Florida weave.. When it comes down to it you will be reducing your yield when you start pruning meristems (main stems).

Don't get me wrong, I prune the occasional lateral stem (often referred to as "sucker shoots" though I don't agree lol) if it's very small, or if I need to get some airspace in the center of a plant, but besides that I simply tie up most of the stems to a stake with a PVC trellis of sorts and let them do their thing..! I do prune atleast 8-10" up from the soil to keep bacteria/spores and such from splashing onto leaves when it rains.. It's asking for trouble to let stems/leaves/fruit touch the soil IMO..
Take care =)

My lessons this year:
1. Just because you have the seeds, you don't have to start them. I was lucky and found homes for my extra 300 plants but it was touch and go for a bit. I still planted 50 plants and as I can, for the third weekend in a row, am seeing the error of my ways

2. Those cute little plants become giant mangled monsters so
- don't over plant in small raised beds. They will get bigger
- keep up on the pruning unless you want a tomato jungle
- use better and more supports to keep the giants from falling over
- write down what's planted where because sharpie will wash off sticks and the plants will grow big enough to hide the name sticks

3. Hail is horrible! My beautiful plants have looked beat up for three weeks now.

4. Chickens do not belong in the garden once the tomatoes begin to ripen... Unless you want them pre- tasted

Already saving seeds and thinking about next season!!!

I prune the lower leaves at least 12'' - mostly 18'' - from the soil to avoid splashing.

And yes, I keep notes of each tomato where is planted.

I use cut up window blinds and attach them to the top of tomato cages I use. Then I also have a map for each bed. It works well for me. Black marker works quite ok, colored not so.

Hmm I like that idea Linda! I too am left with blank tags lol.. I have mapped a few times in the past.. This year wasn't one of those times haha

Pencil won't fade away. Unlike black "permanent" markers which will.

Rodney

This post was edited by theforgottenone1013 on Sun, Sep 14, 14 at 11:21

Daniel, also to question whether to skip on watering during August, this was from market grower in one of the warmer zones, so yeah, it is doable for sure. Good mulch and good soil practices will give your tomatoes long roots. If your tomatoes roots grow only 8-10 inches down then there will be need to think why and what can be changed. Those ones will for sure need frequent watering. I know I tried to dig one tomato in June and it was job and a half for me.

I learned that I love growing tomatoes!! They were the most fun, reasonably easy, and rewarding, in yield and flavor vs the store.

They were so much easier and hardier than the eggplants and peppers.

Any lesson you've learned in... 2015 ?

Probably It was re enforced previous conclusion, that I should switch more to determinants (as much as possible) and stay away from vigorous indeterminants and also grow more dwarfs in pot.Indets are too much work , not proportionally extra fruits for taking up extra garden spot/space.

Another lesson: Take it easy on fertilizing with N rich fertilizers. Plants fruit more in poor soil. hehe

Sey

Sey wrote:

> Take it easy on fertilizing with N rich fertilizers. Plants fruit more in poor soil.

Imo, plants fruit more in soil poor in... N, but rich in P and - especially - K.