Well, I am no expert but after reading your post a couple of times Paul, I saw a couple of things that could have been done differently and, perhaps, brought about a different end.

Did your friend's feeders have cover nearby for the smaller birds? Or were the feeders wide open for hawks and other predators to take advantage? In a place where hawks are commonplace, cover would be critical for birds to escape to.

Also, were your friend's feeders equipped to fend off squirrels? Were they far enough off the ground and equipped with baffles, and properly sited so that squirrels would not be rewarded? I know that squirrels are a problem for everyone but many people seem to use baffles and strategies to keep squirrels away from the feeders, and hence, not get rewarded for their efforts.

I don't think that bird feeding needs to end badly. It might have in your friend's case, unfortunately. But there are many great resources out there to help people do it successfully (and this forum is one).

I don't think you should let one experience discourage you.

I have had an ocasional hawk but I also leave brush and old weeds up during the winter. It sounds like your friend had the bird feeders out in the open. The pictures you have shown this does not appear to be a problem. Hawks will haunt bird feeders in the winter but normally will take only a few of the weaker slower birds. There are a couple of ways that you can handle this. Plant trees or bushes that are either masses of small branches or maintain greenery all year such as cedar, pine trees, holly, etc. You can build open brush piles for the birds to duck into. Make your own statuary of wire or welded metal with holes small enough for the birds but too big for the large hawks.

Squirrels will always be with us, if not what will we do with all of the nuts.

Even with what I have suggested I have two hawk stories. One winter I looked out and noticed a bunch of what looked like turtle doves but some thing just did not look right. Thinking that perhaps there was something wrong with the doves I started looking. Dove, ok. Dove, ok. Dove? Oh No kestral sitting on the same branch as the doves. Except for the head shape they all looked the same.

The other hawk story was when I heard a commotion and saw on one of my wood piles a large hawk. The crew was huddled at the bottom and he was trying to reach through the branches to get to them.

Part of the reason I leave the brush piles is that they are mostly trimmings for various fruit trees and blackberry canes. When fresh they are hard to chip but left over the winter they easily chip the next spring and some are partially composted.

If you are planning on a trip or not being able to feed for a while taper off the feeding. I concur with the squirrels eatting the house as I had the same happen when we went away for two weeks. Came back to several chewed window frames.

A hawk feeding on prey is not a bad end in nature. Realize that attracting birds to a feeder concentrates them unnaturally and just makes it easier for the hawk to feed. But hawks don't kill more than they have to eat to be sated, so it's not like all the birds will be eliminated. The birds become more wary and scarce.

I used to feed birds on an old stump outside my kitchen window, and the squirrels were plentiful. I heard a commotion, once, and looked out to see a squirrel facing off a Red fox. The squirrel fought and tried to ward off the fox, and was incredibly brave; but lost.

It was hard to watch. Like National Geographic documentaries where you know someone is going to die.

I was conflicted, too. Knowing nature, I knew that there are way way more squirrels than predators like foxes, and I am fine with the concept of predator/prey relationships. But seeing that squirrel fight for its life was tough, in addition to the feeling I had that I had created the situation by creating the feeding station.

But it was spring, and the fox had food for his mate and kits.

Elly, You put that into words so well. I read your followup and thought it expressed eloquently the tough part of seeing how nature operates. Thanks!

I think, too, that your friend exacerbated the problem by putting up 'several' feeders. Of course, any self respecting predator would come racing to the source of the excitement.

I have a bird sancuary for the winter. A feeder that is surounded by branches so that hawks do not have an easy "fly through" to pick off the birds. They like feeders in the open and speed is thier weapon. If you make the feeder hard to swoop with branches, fencing or whatever you find hawks will not be a problem....squirrels on the other hand well....I just feed them too.

Mmmmm, not so that speed is their weapon, especially for Cooper's and Sharpies. They use stealth and surprise, and are capable of flying through tangles.

But I do agree about placing the feeders like that! It's just not real insurance against predation.

Not a bird problem but considering winter storms look at your shrubs and trees to see if the ground is free from snow. Unless the birds sleep in that area at night you can use the open area to toss a small bit of seed during really bad windy storms. If the birds sleep there you could be potentially harming them by attracting coons and possums with the seed. I have a dwarf spruce that the branches on it are too thick for things to climb so toss equal opportunity feed there knowing other things need to live.

REALLY? Elly I have seen the sharpies swoop in and snatch a bird right off the feeder. When I put up the fencing covered with brancehs the carnage stopped. Maybe it slows them down enough to be detected giving the birds time to escape. I am talking BRANCHES not just a few twigs. Ill try to take a pic and e mail it to ya.

Both cooper and sharp shin hawks dine on song birds, but the sharp shin is smaller and more adapted at catching them. I sometimes seen sharp shins flying through the shrubs where larger cooper hawk can't reach. They move pretty fast compare to a sparrow.

There's good reason for hawks to be hesitate about reach through the thickets. I remember reading that they can sustain fractures if they try to reach through a thick cover.
Hmm.. Since they are likely to catch a weaker or sick bird, wouldn't get they sick eating it?

Paul

They could get sick but digestive systems are set up to destroy many things that would give you problems if you had them on your skin or inhaled. A weaker bird may just be weaker because they left the nest too late or traveled with out eating and not sick.

I'm not saying they aren't fast; but their MO is surprise and ambush. They don't soar and seek like buteos and falcons do. They watch and wait. Their bodies -short wings and long tails - are perfect for negotiating the forest.

Glad that whatever you did protected your feeder birds. But it is not a guarantee that some are not taken by the smartest, most agile accipiter.

Behavior
Built to move quickly and quietly within dense forest, the hunting Sharp-shinned Hawk approaches its prey stealthily, until it is close enough to overcome its target with a burst of speed. This agility allows the bird to hunt successfully around bird feeders. The secretive traits and inconspicuous nature that allow the Sharp-shinned Hawk to surprise its prey also make it difficult to observe. Sharp-shinned Hawks often have a plucking post near their nests, where they go to pluck feathers from prey, leaving an accumulation of feathers and whitewash at the base of a stump, fence post, or fallen tree.

http://www.seattleaudubon.org/birdweb/bird_details.aspx?id=100

Sharp-shinned hawks hunt mainly small to medium sized songbirds. Meanwhile, Coopers hawks hunt medium songbirds and birds up to the size of grouse or small ducks. Coopers hawks also hunt some small mammal prey such as rats, chipmunks and squirrels.

Both hawks are very fast in level flight, and often catch birds in mid-flight with a swift grab from their sharp talons. Incredibly, these hawks can fly at nearly full speed through dense woodlands and squeeze through gaps not much larger than their body width without even breaking stride!

Both of these species help keep birds populations healthy by taking out those who are unhealthy or unwary. Although some bird watchers express great frustration at observing these birds of prey hunting the songbirds that visit their feeders, it is important to remember that they help keep the feeder a healthier place for the birds to eat. Over-crowding at bird feeders and feeding stations can cause a variety of problems, including helping spread disease between and among species of songbirds.

http://www.wildernesscollege.com/sharp-shinned-hawk-and-coopers-hawk.html

Some people think that birds should forage for their own food and that feeding the birds is "welfare for the birds". Others think the birds would starve without feeders. I think there is probably a middle ground here and that bird-feeding can sometimes help the birds. However, it is probably more important to provide natural habitat and food sources, than bird feeders.

There are many negatives to feeding the birds, that I can think of -

- causes birds to congregate unnaturally in a concentrated area, which attracts predators
- can spread disease
- attracts rodents, or pesky mammals like raccoons or bears
- can make it more likely for birds to strike windows
- can support the populations of invasive birds like House Sparrows, pigeons, and Starlings

This is my 4th year feeding the birds. I've reduced the amount of food I feed as the years have passed and put very little food out this past summer. This was because I had Bluebirds nesting in a snag in the back yard, and I didn't want to attract House Sparrows. The Bluebirds were fine, because there were abundant insects available to feed their nestlings in the surrounding territory. Over the years, the native plants and gardens have grown and started to flower, providing more sources of natural food.

I have no problems with squirrels and predators of any kind. Let me tell you about my arrangement.

I live in the suburbs, lots are 1/2 acre, and I have seen a hawk only once, looked like an immature one. Song birds do not get hunted by anyone. Squirrels are only able to eat birdseed from the ground under the feeder.

I use a baffeled birdfeeder for many years, squirrels are not able to get at it from anywhere. I located it about 8-10 feet from the deck and similarly from a medium size pine, not permitting the squirrels to jump onto the feeder from the top. Several 2-3 ft bushes in front of the deck and the dense branches of the white pine provide good cover for the birds.

This shows you need a baffled feeder, and close cover for the birds.

Personally, I root for the hawks and foxes--they're doing their job and belong in a healthy ecosystem. And I have no problem with squirrels. However,none of you mentioned house cats, which according to a number of studies kill more songbirds than any other predator. Anything that concentrates prey, such as feeders, will attract predators, such as cats. Adding cover near the feeder only makes it easier for stealth predators like cats to catch birds!

I say, instead of hanging feeders, plant food plants such as berrying shrubs and native perennials and grasses that make seed for birds. Give the birds a flying chance--and give us all a more natural environment.

Here is a link that might be useful: follow me on twitter

Actually, not to incite a riot but there are no studies that have really proven house cats to have any more scientifically significant impact on songbird population than any other predator. Song bird feeders actually help propagate thier natural food through the station feed because song birds replant many of the feeder station seeds as they would any other "natural" food they ate. Besides, many times their natural food is not available in harsh winter months. Not particularly a house cat lover here but I also detest the spreading of unscientific information of mythical proportions. Yes...you will be able to google up a "study" to prove me wrong and I can also google and find a picture of Elvis alive and well working at a carwash in Decature IL, so please...save it. Many people who feed birds also provide a natural habit along with feeding stations. Let's not assume these people have the collective IQ of snails, shall we?

I don't think that anyone was stating that cats are the number one predator of birds - but that they are a bird predator that is worth considering. This is discussed objectively in the latest edition of "Sanctuary," Massachusetts Audubon's quarterly publication.

As to feeders vs. enhanced habitat, I agree that both have their place. I really believe that feeders help the birds in winter (living in New England with tough winters). I also believe that the best thing one can do is enhance his/her piece of property, no matter what the size, to provide a favorable habitat for birds.

Natural, undeveloped land is becoming more and more scarce, so anything we can do to keep it and nurture it is great. Whether it's a property of meadow flowers or a woodland area, or a small plot bird sanctuary, it's better than another business building or parking lot.

In general, I have found the folks on this forum (and the bird watching forum) to be very open, encouraging, and affirming to new birding enthusiasts, and I appreciate it. They have helped me greatly in a way no book could.

Whether it's a scientific research that was done regarding cats or not, the simple fact is that cats aren't supposed to be in nature. Squirrels, fox, hawks, etc, all belong in nature. House cats are a domesticated animal. I gave up feeding our native birds because of all the HOSP and EUST I would get at the feeders. Every now and again, I'd hope those were gone, and low and behold there was a cat (I have 2 feral cats here). Sitting, waiting. Neither one could have reached the feeders, but the thought that they could? Not going to happen.

The link below says it's a Scientific Study regarding cats and birds. If you don't want to believe it, that's alright by me.

Here is a link that might be useful: Conservation Library

*natursounds* made the bold statement "However,none of you mentioned house cats, which according to a number of studies kill more songbirds than any other predator.", which sounds very much to me like someone stating that cats are a number one predator of birds.
Again, in reading the above provided link, the statement says "scientific studies actually show...." but does not provide any actual study(ies) citing. I find this interesting every time I see it. Yes, cats are a domesticated species but according to smithsonian.com, scientists (hey..if everyone else can toss around uncited scientific sources, so can I)now say the cat has lived with people for 12,000 years. Folks...that's a long time for cats to be eating song birds. Seems like they would have gone through them all by now. Cats should be kept inside for any number of reasons of which would benefit their own well being.
Additionally, consider that backyard feeders are efficient places to forage because they mimic natural resource forage areas / clusters of food as found in nature when birds are not prepared to deal with sudden winter storms. Particularly due to the fact that their natural resources are running out. Because of their high metabolic rate birds need a higher caloric intake during severe winter weather than they even do during more temperate winter weather. By providing nutritious foods and clean available water it helps birds make it through harsh winter periods that may possibly not otherwise.Most of us who have been feeding birds for a long period time, both naturally and with feeders have likely noticed an increase in bird numbers when snow is heavy on the ground and natural foraging becomes difficult. When the snow melts, the feeders stay filled longer. One interesting perspective is that although feeders provide an abundance of food, daily pressures encourage birds to sample a variety of foods because any bird that becomes dependent on a single source will perish if the supply runs out. So, there would be no reason to worry that birds would be overly dependent on any particular feeding station. Eating is not only about nutrition but about consuming a lot of food quickly while avoiding predators.

To get back to the original question of this post, I would say that bird feeding does not have to end badly: that if some aspects of the bird feeding site are given special attention (i.e. providing cover for birds that they can flee to quickly but that does not enable predators to come close); also, baffles and other approaches to keep feeders from being taken over by squirrels; and, less reliance on feeders and more reliance on native plantings that will attract and provide food for birds.

Interesting about the hawks. When I lived in central FL, we had large red tail hawks who lived nearby. They would roost on my tall fence posts and wait on birds at the feeders- often getting bluejays and doves.
I switched feeders over to enclosed wire types (aka Squirrel resistant) and that deterred the larger birds. Hawks didnt seem intent on the smaller birds.
And now I live in SE TN. While getting dressed this morning, I was watching the birds at the feeders and woodpeckers at the suet, when suddenly a small hawk (one of a family of babies I watched grow up over summer) come swooping quickly maybe six feet off the ground, through the trees and brush (I naturalize). The songbirds, alerted by the woodpecker took off in the opposite direction. I'm pretty sure he got one, when he stopped for only a second at the feeder, and flew quickly back to the area where the nest was last year.
It was fast and amazing. It is nature of course.
my feeders are all set where there is plenty of cover, some in the treeline, all with squirrel preventers (I feed them cracked corn to keep them away from the feeders, they seem ok with that.)
on the subject of cats - I have four indoor outdoor cats, who have lived around feeders for ten years. As kittens, they did go after birds, but as they grew older, they could care less about birds, when there are plenty of mice and small mamals (even small squirrels have fallen 'victim'!)to be found at the bottoms of the feeders where seed falls. Very rare that they get a bird - (although they did get a few finches last year when the finches were all sick)So just because you see a cat at your feeder, may not mean he is going after a bird.
They can come in handy as rodent control if you have messy birds!

Just hadda share about hawks. Came to this forum to ask a bird question but this post subject intrigued me so I hadda check it out. I've had a hawk in my area for several years now, but only seen him in flight or sitting up on top of a dead tree a block away.

But what happend the other day was new to me. There's a small tree across the street that all my sparrows fly to after they feed at my front yard feeders. I was out in my garden and guess I got 'lucky.' All of a sudden, I saw a big bird go flying into that tree !! At first I thought it was a pigeon since I have to deal with them, as well. But it turned out to be that hawk !!

I say I got lucky, because I feel as others have said, it's nature and I've never seen a hawk THAT close to the ground!!

Anyway, birds scattered, flying out of the tree all at once, making a big ruckus. Then out flew few stragglers, then even a few more after that. Seeing some of them taking so long, I was sure he'd snagged one.

I took a chance and walked s-l-o-w-l-y across the street to see if he was feasting on one (not to sound morbid, but once again...it's nature). I wasn't even sure he was still in the tree but as I got about three feet away, out he flew and then just stopped and landed on a fence post, only several feet away from me. He even looked over at me as if to say, "HA HA, you can't catch me, but I'll let you SEE me."

He was close enough that for the first time in my life, I could see his markings, his eyes, his magnificance. I took a another step closer and of course, he flew away...towards my house, across the neighbor's roof and then off, off and away.

But it was a wonderful experience for me. I was so taken aback that I called my mom and said I wish I had a zoom camera ALWAYS hanging around my neck. My camera phone just wouldn't have done justice. I'm glad he didn't get any of my 'babies' and don't wish death on any animal, but it's survival of the fittest. It's the balance of nature.

Of course -- I need to state that I DID NOT read every post in this forum so I may be expressing something that is in total opposition to another post or even the topic at hand. If so, I apologize.....

But I just HADDA share. It was soooo cool.

bonnie aka brit5467

Yeah for the hawks! I must admit that seeing a predator suddenly swoop it on the twitchy birds that visit my feeders is a cool change of pace. I feed the birds for their movement and chatter, without which, my natural plantings would seem unnatural. The predators make it even more real. In the last month, a Northern Shrike has made a few guest appearances. He darts in like a bandit trying to snatch up the family jewels. Hasn't been able to make the grab yet, but damn, that looks like fun!

Came home today to a juvenile sharp shinned on my screened in porch. He was tired of trying to figure out how to get out but otherwise okay. He got in through a large tear in the screen that wasn't there this morning. There is nothing on the porch this time of year for him to be interested in. All I can figure out is that he must have been after the wrens which skitter along the screen sometimes and went through the screen accidentally. We gently persuaded him out the open door and he was none the worse for the wear. Poor fellow. The wren must have gotten away because there were no feathers anywhere. Do I call this ending badly? Only for me because I have to fix a screen. Did it happen because of feeders? I doubt it. We had a young Red Tail on the porch one year when there wasn't a feeder in site but there was a squirrel's nest in a neighbor's tree which sits near the property line. Most likely the Red Tail was after the squirrel and hit the screen accidentally, going through it and ending up in the porch. I'm just glad it wasn't a window he hit. That would have ended poorly.

First off, I love everyones accounts of hawk encounters. They are magnificent birds. And I agree that providing proper shelter and protection at the feeders is critical. I do provide winter feeders to supplement the native plants that I have added and were already here. Heavy snowfalls always bring them out in great numbers which is great for someone who loves to watch them and gets great satisfaction from it. Not a big fan of squirrels though I don't begrudge them a bite or two (as long as they leave my birdhouses alone!) As to cats, I have one very dumb, very slow cat that barely turns her head when one lands on the arm of the chair she's napping in. I've got to get a picture of that. The feeder hangs from a tree near the deck and I also scatter sunflower seeds on the deck for the cardinals. She sleeps in a chair not 5 feet from them. It's pretty funny for such a "predator" like cats. Not all are so lazy though.

Well, I had two hawk attack for the past two weeks:

1. A large flock of pigeon showed up to feed (like 12 or so). These guys are really large, bigger than even the squirrels. A squirrel attempt to dislodge the flock so he can get to the food. Suddenly all of the scatter and I thought it was two pigeons fighting. It turns out that one of the was a hawk (even bigger than the pigeon). He killed off the pigeon and took off with it, which was amazing itself since the hawk wasn't that much bigger. I guess he was eating well today. I can't figure out what hawk it was. It had a brown back. It was probably a cooper.

2. I notice the sharp shin hawk hiding inside the canopy of trees. He waits for 15 min or so until some unfortunate bird fly by and got snapped up. Just like before, the hawk took off with the bird. I can't tell what bird it was, except that it was brown. I hope it wasn't one of the cardinals (I have house sparrows to spare...)

Paul

I ran a search and found this large post. I'm about to start feeding birds and am interested in seeing some pictures of how you arranged cut branches and piles of plant material around your feeders.

I have a shepherd's hook that I'll hang a tower feeder on. The only shrubbery near is one eight foot Viburnum shrub which the birds use for cover. The hook is about seven feet away from the shrub. From what I read here, I need something around the hook. Any suggestions? Pictures of cover would be helpful.

I just use my trimmings to build my piles. I generally have two. One with berry and rose cuttings which I just add each years trimmings. The other is for everything else. They are just randomly piled because once you start putting stuff on a brush pile it will start tipping. To offset the tipping I add material from another direction.

In this area we normally get 1 regular ice storm each year and about every 3-5 years a major ice storm. At that time the bigger branches come down. I cut the side branches from the main branch and put those on the pile. As I trim the shrubs I add those branches. So as you can see it is random and I use whatever is available. The regular one is on the other side of my big lilac about 15 ft from the feeders. Some like it closer but I am also using it to build up the soil underneath to fill a hole where a tree had to be taken out several ice storms ago.

You do want to have small branches on the outside to prevent some of the hawks from entering the pile. Once established there should be an area for the small ones to take refuge that is below the reach of your own residential hawks. I have sparrow and peregrines so they just follow the birds in but have a hard time getting out so the wee ones escape.

You may want to start a fresh topic on this even though your question goes along with this thread.

IMO, hawks are birds too. When you put out a bird feeder expect to feed some raptors and squirrels along with the little birds.

I have moved my feeders around a bit to keep the raptors from having such an easy shot at the feeder. I have one feeder that hangs under neath the eave of the house, so the raptors can't see it from above. My other feeders are either under trees or near some tall plantings.

I grow some tall native plants (joepyeweed, culversroot, ironweed, new england asters) under the feeders and the birds really like the perches and cover the taller plants provide. And they like the seeds off the plants too.

I do have a squirrel baffle on one of my feeder poles. I got it at Wild Birds Unlimited and it works great. The feeders on that pole are protected from squirrel damage.

Just moseyd in to check on my old stomping grounds and this thread caught my eye.
For what it's worth, I started out feeding year round and slowly modified my routine to only supplement during the leaner months. We have very VERY little grass on our 20 acres, it's all bottomlands woods and brush, with lots of big lovely blowdowns that get to stay where they fall. (Regardless of what neighbors think, nature wastes nothing.)
I have noticed that even on days when there is a huge amount of activity at the feeders, if you take a look around the extended perimeter, you will see as many or more birds totally ignoring the easier food source and eagerly inspecting the carpet of fallen leaves and limbs, stumps and other forest debris for seeds and overwintering insect morsels. Even in the few rounds of snow we got here, the birds still did not totally rely on the BOSS and suet.
This is surprising to me...do the birds know they need variety, as someone suggested (hi Cathy! :) ) To totally ignore a calorie dense food source that also required minimal energy expenditure to utilize?
Perhaps the birds I was seeing out foraging had already had their fill at the feeders and were just doing supplemental activities?

But without a doubt it demonstrates the importance of having natural plantings and cover in place...