Bingster,

I know you are directing this Post to Farkee, but one would of advice re: roots. The first 2 Seasons I let the plants go down into the water reservoir through the aeration holes - - and what a MESS! Terrible job to clean them our of the water reservoir at the end of the year.

For the past 2 Seasons, I have used the water permeable Landscape Fabric (mid-grade DuPont at Lowes $14.00 for 50 feet), and two layers have effectively kept all but the most determined tap roots from drilling through. I would also suggest that taste of the tomatoes has now improved and don't have a "hydroponic" flavor, as the roots are never allowed to enter the water reservoir.

Just some thoughts to consider, Bingster.

Raybo

Bingster, thanks so much for the additional info.

Raybo, I think the landscape fabric makes the mix wetter ,despite being water permeable, as it restricts airflow. I tried something similar (ie underground pipe wrap) and those boxes seemed wetter. Before when you used Miracle Gro Potting mix (predominately peat) they must have really stayed wetter with the fabric. Wetter boxes would cause all the yellowing leaves and other ramifications.

Again I am just surmising this based on limited experience with covering the peforated platform. I should do an experiment to see if this is true.

I think you are on the right track though to find a more aerated mix. That way you could still use the landscape fabric you like and still have a 'dryer' mix. I still think screening might be a better choice to keep the necessary airflow intact but I will have to experiment with that as that is the only way to know for sure. Good luck with all your trials.

Hi Raybo,

Your garden looks great as always!! You are right about the additional mess of cleanup at season's end. But what I found after my year trying this was that I had huge root masses in the reservoir. My plant stems were huge and the plants were extremely robust...better than my last 3 years. I have never found a water problem, that is, my soil being so moist that it was detrimental to the plants. Part of the fun is experimentation so maybe I'll do a couple of trial buckets to see. Hope all is well in Cal.!!

cheers

Bing

I'm also on the anti-landscape fabric bandwagon. I was testing wicking setups this past winter when I noticed that landscape fabric against small holes (1/4" and less) in plastic really restricts drainage (and wicking). I saw the same thing last year when I foolishly used it over a side drain hole in a SWC bucket (it didn't drain, raising the water level above the soil bench and drowned the plant).

This year, in most of my SWCs I'm using a layer of plain bark nuggets at the soil bench. It helps keep mix from falling through and I'm hoping will also create air pockets.

For SWC's that used a flipped bench (like the Earthtainer), I'm using fiberglass window screen with a layer of bark nuggets on top.

Now that I think about it, using a layer of bark nuggets under and over the landscape fabric might work just as well. If you look at drain tile (that black plastic pipe used in landscaping), you'll see that the holes sit down in grooves. This keeps an air pocket between the fabric and the holes.

If anyone wants to see what I'm talking about, just take a couple of plastic cups and put a 1/4 inch hole in the bottom of each. Glue a circle of landscape fabric inside the bottom of one (I used hot glue). Fill both with water and see the difference. Now add potting mix to both cups, water well, and see how the they behave over a couple of days.

I don't know if allowing water roots to run wild into the reservoir will effect taste or not. I've read opinions that it does, and opinions that it doesn't.

I think one reason why clean out of the Earthtainers is such a bear, is the cages are connected to the soil bench and really get in the way. I used a similar setup with my 18 gallon SWCs last year, and found the integrated cage made both setup and clean out more of a chore. I really like the integrated cage though, so I came up with an internal frame to support the cage:
{{gwi:28086}}

This is a dual tote 18/14 gallon SWC from last year that I retrofitted for wicks and the frame:
{{gwi:1347200}}

{{gwi:1347201}}

{{gwi:1347202}}
Note: there's also 2 pieces of 4" drain pipe underneath for support. I'm going to add uprights to the frame at the corners to eliminate these in the future. They're not needed with a flipped bench design.

{{gwi:1347203}}

The cage just slips into the frame after the plant is in and the mulch cover is in place:
{{gwi:1347205}}

When the plants get bigger, I'll probably tie down the cage to the corners. Last year, I just used the holes in the handle:
{{gwi:1347207}}

I'm not totally happy with the cost of the internal frame (mostly from the dozen 3/4" T fittings), but I really like the convenience and stability it provides (cage is supported at the ground, not the soil bench. It took some time to figure out the proper lengths needed, but once I had that figured out it was a breeze to cut a large number of pieces on my Crosscut saw and pop them together (dry fit).

I have to give credit to both Raybo (for the integrated cage idea) and Big Al (for his removable cage and bottom support Earthtainer modifications) for the genesis of the idea.

The dimensions of the middle and end cross pieces are 5-5/8", the bottom uprights are 3", and the bottom extensions are 3-1/2". I think the upper uprights are 18" for the dual tote, and 16" for the flipped bench. This setup works with the Lowes heavy duty tomato cages, that measure about 7" between legs at the bottom ring. They aren't always welded symmetrically, but the uprights have plenty of give to accommodate this. To make the holes in the soil bench, I use a 7" square of cardboard centered on the bench and make a mark at the corners, then use a hole saw to cut out for the upper uprights.

farkee,

Experimentation is what makes this hobby so much fun!

The first Season I used Landscape Fabric, I bought the "cheap" cloth fabric stuff from Home Depot. I agree that this caused additional wicking and wetness. It also did not stop the roots.

For the past 2 Seasons I have used 2 layers of DuPont mid-grade Landscape Fabric form Lowes:

{{gwi:45479}}

This brand of Landscape Fabric, while air and water permeable will NOT wick water - it is a nylon type of material that can't absorb water, only pass it through where it makes contact with the moist potting mix in the wicking basket. I am quite happy now with this Landscape Fabric, as I want to not have to empty the EarthTainers every year and clean them out: This is what happens when you let the roots grow down into the water reservoir:

{{gwi:19500}}

A real freakin mess to disassemble and clean out each year!!! Now, I can simply pull out the root ball, and trowel in a cubic foot or so of new Combo Mix at the beginning of the new Season. I plan to do this for 4 consecutive Seasons, then change out for all new Combo Mix at the beginning of Season 5.

Bingster, as you spent $270 for new Potting Mix this Season (and you indicate you will do it again at the start of every new Season), I would suggest you experiment with a few of your Containers using my approach, to see if you can re-use the Combo Mix for 4 years.

Anyway, let's keep everyone informed of our collective experiments with what works - - and what doesn't.

Raybo

Raybo,

That's exactly the brand of Landscape fabric that I have. The problem isn't that it wicks, but that when placed against plastic with smaller holes it loses a lot of it's water permeability, keeping the bottom layer of potting mix extra wet and impeding air exchange. Just try the cup test I mention in my previous post and I promise you'll be surprised.

...also, I don't recommend that anyone building an Earthtainer omit the landscape fabric will-nilly. Raybo's instructions call for landscape fabric between the wicking chamber and soil chamber. Based upon my observations, the lansdcape fabric restricts wicking to the soil chamber. If you eliminate the fabric, you may over saturate the mix, even though you have better drainage and air exchange at the soil bench (or it may balance out and work fine). So, if you want to try it without landscape fabric, you might need to keep the landscape fabric over the wicking chamber, or use any number of other ways to adjust the wicking. Just be aware.

The reason I'm exploring the issue of landscape fabric in SWCs is that one of the supposed benefits of the original Earthbox design is the extra root aeration from the holes in the soil bench improve plant health and yields. It's hard to imagine Raybo could get better yields, but you never know. If it does turn out that the fabric reduces yield, it still may be worth using it to avoid the cleanout issue, or possible taste issue. On the other hand it wouldn't surprise me a bit to find that the landscape fabric contributes to the bottom layer of mix staying saturated and even going Anaerobic, leading to that sulfur smell Raybo experienced at clean out.

Ferretbee, I agree , with 2 layers of landscape fabric (or even one) I think the mix stays wetter particularly with a peat mix hence the smell. I have experienced this myself on a box that got clogged up. Boy did it smell! But I see what you mean about leaving it over the wicking area to prevent too much saturation.

You obviously can get good yields from a mix that is overly wet because Ray has done this in the past but you run into the problems he is working on now. One bit wetter though and you drown the roots and the plant really suffers.

I know all about the roots in the reservoir but I still would worry about restricting the air flow that the holes in the platform provide. But as I said maybe a mix with more porosity (Ray is working on that) will solve the leaf yellowing and diluted taste he experienced.

I still have a feeling that screening would be better even though some roots may grow through. I have used pieces of screening in the bottom to prevent the mix from falling through around the edges of the platform where my very old earthboxes have bowed out a bit but didn't pay much attention to the effect on the mix--next time I will.

Ferretbee, I can appreciate your efforts to find a support method that detaches easily. Wouldn't want to clean out any boxes where the support took time to remove or got in the way of me setting up the boxes. But it does seem like that is an awful lot of pipe connections as you mentioned.
I just use the same concrete reinforcement wire that everyone uses in the ground though I have an idea to use galvinzed fencing but I have yet to put together what I have in mind. Keep tinkering--there is always room for improvement!