Ratdogheads - my Henri Matisse stays between around 3-4 feet in a mostly sunny spot, but might be a little larger in a full hot sun location. Suffice to say that planting it behind my Champagne Moment was not one of my brighter ideas, and it involves some judicious pruning to make both of them visible. Redwolfdoc - welcome to the fun of rose growing, and always feel free to start a new thread on a topic where it might get more response. I checked the website HelpMeFind, a TERRIFIC website for roses and well worth the optional membership fee, to look up Blue Angel. Both the regular and climbing versions of Blue Angel appear to be on the edge of reported hardiness for our zone, but those are default ratings so not anything to discourage you. If that rose has survived your winters, that's already a good start. Blue Angel cl. is reported to only bloom on old wood, which means that it won't bloom well if it has to regrow from dying back to its roots or graft each year, which is typical of some types of climbers that survive but don't thrive in our zones. Still, 3 seasons is still way too soon to make a judgment about a climber. They tend to spend more time than non-climbing forms in putting down roots and preparing to make their moves, so if it grows some or is at least green and healthy-looking in the active seasons, you might give it some more time. In my world, alfalfa hay or pellets is always a good thing to add to a rose to boost its production a bit in spring. To give you perspective, my Madame Isaac Periere - that is definitely hardy in my zone - was unexciting and unremarkable for 3-4 years while it was putting down roots. Then last spring in its fifth (?) year, it absolutely ate up every rose near it and was stunning in the spring. There's a standard rose wisdom that for roses, first year sleep, second year creep, third year leap. For climbers, you have to give them another year or two of creeping or sleeping before you get leap years. Hope this helps, and welcome to GW! Cynthia

Rebecca, I've had Felix LeClerc for about 9 years and I echo the fantastic comments of everyone about him. He's among the first roses to bloom in late May here in zone 5, and he's totally cane hardy and pretty indestructible. It took about 4-5 years before he rebloomed very well, but now I get blooms pretty steadily into July, and scattered blooms off and on even into November. As for height, I think we'd be in the same boat being in close zones. Felix is hardy to zone 3 at least so I think you're still looking at cane hardiness. Mine is about 8' tall and he puts out laterals pretty well, so if you pull the main canes horizontally along your 8X4' trellis you should be able to get it fairly well covered after a while. Like all climbers, he takes a good 4 years to come into his own so be patient. Also, I find his canes to be pretty stiff so I wouldn't expect to do the zigzag canes you can do with more flexible climbers like Crown Princess Margaretha. You also want to make sure your trellis is pretty strong, given that those sturdy canes can pull down an average wood trellis in the wind. You didn't ask for pictures, but here's one of Felix trying (and not succeeding) to pull down a 6' fake iron (aluminum) fence. You can see that even 4' or so away from the fence he can easily reach the top. For years I didn't realize he was supposed to be a climber so I kept pruning him lower to keep him in line. Fortunately it made him bush out and he's forgiven me since. Mine was from HCR too and he's absolutely fine on his own roots. Have fun Cynthia

Some thoughts... The two leucothoes, 'Gerard's Rainbow' and 'Vanilla Swirl' are different plants. 'Girard's Rainbow' is L. fontanesiana and 'Vanilla Swirl' is L. axillaris. I have several for the former and they are good, sturdy plants although really gangly and open to about 6 feet tall. The difference in the foliage color between new and old foliage on 'Girard's Rainbow' is not as dramatic as it sounds like it is on 'Vanilla Swirl.' All the leaves are mottled with olive green and cream and then the new growth looks like a coppery red wash over the top of those colors. You might consider Leucothoe axillaris 'Scarletta' or 'Red Lips' which are two dwarf, red leaved varieties. Said to be hardy to zone 4. I have 'Scarletta', and, unfortunately, it doesn't color-up well in the shaded location where I've planted it--but it should do better with more sun. It is a compact, nicely shaped plant about 18'X18'. Has red new growth which gets more burgandy in the winter and then the leaves fade to dark green so it looks kind of speckled with red leaves. I like Jenny's idea about the Rhodys or Azaleas. You might try a rhody with really red petioles. Also, check out the following link with many Euphorbias that have red/reddish foliage (at least at some point in the season). Some are even hardy to zone 5! Here is a link that might be useful: Euphorbia Link

The one I have from Lazy S's has survived the winters under complete neglect,in a pot out of doors for two winters. I almost lost it and will be giving it some TLC from now on. But I still plan to winter it in a more sheltered spot out-of-doors.