Aerated vermicompost tea: fanciful or fact??

18 years ago

This message is directed to the forum in general and Kelly in particular:

The foundations of my belief in the viability of AERATED worm or compost tea are teetering and I'm afraid, without some support, my whole vermi philosophy is about to come crashing down.

My convictions re ACT come from various published (non-advertising related) info from the web which proclaim CT "increases plant growth", "provides beneficial nutrients to plants and soil", "provides beneficial organisms", "helps to suppress diseases", and "replaces toxic chemicals". I realize that all of these claims are general and none really address the foliar aspect of ACT.

Among other articles, Kitchen Gardener published an article, reproduced by The Taunton Press, BREWING COMPOST TEA by Elaine Ingham, that extolled the virtues of ACT. Exhaltations included: ACT "makes the benefits of compost go farther", "when sprayed on the leaves", ACT "helps suppress foliar diseases", "increases the amount of nutrients available to the plant", and "speeds the breakdown of toxins". It's "even been shown to increase the nutritional quality and improve the flavor of vegetables".

In the same article: The science behind compost tea, includes the facts that "the soil is full of microorganisms that aid plant growth and plant health--bacteria and fungi, which are decomposers, and protozoa and beneficial nematodes, which are predators. But there are bad guys, too--disease-causing bacteria and fungi, protozoa, and root-feeding nematodes". WHEW.

"THE BAD BACTERIAL DECOMPOSERS AND THE PLANT-TOXIC PRODUCTS THEY MAKE ARE ENHANCED BY ANAEROBIC, OR REDUCED-OXYGEN, CONDITIONS. By making sure the tea and the compost itself are WELL OXYGENATED AND HIGHLY AEROBIC, you eliminate 75 percent of the potential plant disease-causing bacteria and plant-toxic products. To take care of the other 25 percent of potential diseases and pests, you want to get good guys into the soil AND ON AT LEAST 60 TO 70 PERCENT OF YOUR PLANTS' LEAVES. Good bacteria work against the detrimental ones in four ways: They consume the bad guys, they may produce antibiotics that inhibit them, they compete for nutrients, and they compete for space." WHEW, TOO.

When I absorbed all this, I yelled YIPPEE!!! I've found the holy grail! This is the missing part of the puzzle!

And I began to formulate THE PLAN, which I've stayed with up until now, until inferences began being made that "ACT is benign, aeration is unnecessary", etc, ad nauseum.

Pardon the brevity of my post-I could have cited many more testimonials for ACT-but the questions that have arisen by recent posts seem to dispel all the above "facts". Posters seem to be distancing themselves from positive statements about ACT. Kelly, you, in particular, continue to proclaim "do what works for you, what you feel comfortable with", "I steep tea without using aeration", etc.

If Ms. Ingham's studies have been rebuked, for what reasons, and by whom? Kelly, your ambivalence toward ACT, if I interpret your posts correctly, could use a little amplification.

I just want to know if I am spraying my ACT against the wind.

Thank you for your diligent and attentive effort to get all the way to this point in this ridiculously long post.

Chuckiebtoo

Featured Answer

arizona_wormer

9 years ago

last modified: 9 years ago

I have two thoughts on this subject. 1) I have been told that when you treat ground with AACT before planting (like all winter if you're bored) the micro organisms work their way down into the dirt and then go into a type of suspended animation. Then they warm up in spring and are waiting for the roots when they get down there. The castings you mix with potting soil when you start your seeds give help to the very young root structure. So if that in fact is correct there is a support system from start to finish.
2) After churning up your brew of AACT the stuff in the bag is still alive and viable. All you have done is force the micros to multiply exponentially and have, in effect, kidnapped them and sentenced then to "life in the garden. The remaining castings can still be saved in your castings box/bag/whatever until you need to use it.
With all this in mind all you give up by using AACT is a bit of time, a touch of molasses and a bit of electricity. Now, if you REALLY want to get to the heart of the matter you need to AACT one bunch of stuff and not the other. Say, half your bell peppers, half your tomatoes etc.. Then you will see for yourself.
In college we studied about "learning". The Prof. told us about 2 groups. The Greeks and The Romans and some of the basic differences between them. A group of people sit and look at a mountain. They ponder "How long would it take a man to walk from this spot where we are now all the way to the top." he said that The Greeks would sit, ponder, analyze, discuss and maybe even argue about it. The Romans would pick one guy and tell him to walk to the top of the mountain while the rest watched and timed him. You are free to choose the one that you want to be in order to support your position, debunk another position or even find out for yourself for the first time.

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Comments (23)

squeeze
18 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
not long, compared to Kelly's :) and tho she'll no doubt have her say here, I'll chime in too - yes ACT is wasted time and resources - I find the best way to avoid viral and fungal problems on plants is to keep them dry at all times, not wet them down w/ something that may well be a good "wetting agent", that keeps'em wet and attracts humidity - especially a concern w/ tomatos around here - and the best way to avoid insect problems is to have a healthy soil growing healthy plants

I've made compost and casting tea at different times for a fertilizing aid, and aerated or not found it didn't do much different than just using the compost dry - main problem I came up w/ [aside from the unecessary mess and fuss] is that you never know exactly what the nutrient composition of any given batch of 'tea bag' material is, and how that's affected by the length of brew time, and how the bacterial population is actually changing [unless you can do a lab analysis hourly thru each batch!]

don't know Elaine Ingham other than to know that her 'soilweb' labs are multiplying at an alarming rate, and the analysis offered ain't cheap! I find that a 'regular' soil analysis can reveal all thats required to know about a thoughtfully tended soil, and regular additions of compost [also useful to have analyzed occassionally] keep my garden soil healthy enough that I don't have disease and insect problems beyond a very minimal level to be expected on this planet, and my plants do well

the best fertilizer is indeed the footsteps of the gardener!

Bill
Kelly_Slocum
18 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Damn, Chuckie, this is really NOT a conversation I want to have on a public internet forum... I am going to answer your questions, but if you want further detail than will be presented here you'll have to phone me at 360-253-5465. You, and anyone else who is interested, are welcome to call that number any time.

Below are two links to legitimate, research-based papers/articles reflecting the lack of data and the conflicting data regarding compost teas. People post links all the time that never get read, but I would strongly encourage you to read these. They are relatively short, but are well written and cite published research that will allow you to follow up should you choose.

http://www.mofga.org/mofgm04c.html

http://www.cra-recycle.org/CCC/inthenews/June%202003%20newsletter.pdf

Lynda Chalker-Scott of WSU Puyallup is one of the researchers who disputes Elaine Ingham's claims, and whose questions are available on the internet. Below I have linked two of her WSU-published fact sheets:

http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda%20Chalker-Scott/Fact%20Sheets/Compost%20tea%20fact%20sheet.pdf

http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda%20Chalker-Scott/Horticultural%20Myths_files/Myths/Compost%20tea%20again.pdf

Please note in the above statement that I said Chalker-Scott questioned Elaine's CLAIMS, not her research. Published, peer reviewed research conducted by Elaine is not in question, but there is damned little of it, and certainly not enough to support the broad statements of the efficacy of ACT, and the claims that ACT is superior to NCT that appear to come from Soil Food Web. Consider, Chuckie, the number of lay-people and home gardeners who love compost teas, but the dearth of accolades for compost tea coming from Extension Agents, Ag and Hort advisors, farmers, orchardists, vintners and mainstream gardening experts. People who rely on research for their claims have so little on which to base an opinion of compost tea that they cannot generally advocate its use. Still, there is enough anecdotal evidence to suggest there is something to tea use that these same professionals find themselves reluctant to advise against it. So here we are, left with some confidence that tea is good, but without sufficient scientific backing to say what exactly, or how specifically tea should be used so that we ensure that the majority of those trying it will see the suggested benefit. In the absence of such data how would you suggest we procede?!? I want so badly to scream from the hilltops that tea will reliably replace chemicals and always enhance plant growth, but I have absolutely no reliable proof of that, and in the absence of proof I have a responsibility to remain cautious in how I approach the concept.

I do believe that one day hard data will enable us to start making research-based claims about compost tea. As such, I am very concerened that people are not turned off to the concept prior to this happening by inflated or misguided claims of efficacy or complicated "rules" and expensive equipment requirements for making teas without knowing if such gyrations are necessary. Thus, I suggest that folks go with their gut as opposed to listening to those who stridently criticize all tea making methods but their own.

I hope to hear from you, Chuckie, and from anyone interested in more detailed discussion or this or any other compost, vermicompost or soil related subject. My phone line remains open to you!

Kelly S
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Keeping this topic active: KellyS 's paragraph: "You've got it, actually. We are talking about value somewhere between zero and "the greatest thing since the shovel". Where, in that spectrum tea falls, leachate can fall as well, and that particular point will vary with the tea/leachate, the plant or soil to which it is applied, and the desired impact. It is why any recommendation regarding tea (or leachate) should be qualified with the statement "individual results will vary", as Susan has wisely said. " BTW I looked up ITT : It means In This Thread . (Navigating My QUESTION: does anyone on this forum besides Paul, who doesn't do Tea, have the kind of microscope that can see and photograph Life in Your Bin ? I will buy one someday if/when I get caught up on higher priorities. In the meantime, (ITM ? ) I wish someone would brew some tea and read it for me/us. Specifically, I'd like to see what happens when I/we "keep aerating". That is, why can't I keep 4 gallons, or a gallon jug, bubbling indefinitely ? And: is the foam a reliable indicator of what is happening ? If I had a microscope I could observe whether the good-guy count goes up or down with time, and whether the molasses or other food makes a difference. Further, since I do keep a bucket of horse manure tea brewing, I will, if I live long enough, look to see what is in HM tea. FYI (everyone knows that one, right ? ) Brewing HM tea breaks down the wood shavings & digested HM, until there are hardly any solids. Is that just because of the plastic net ? (the net oranges & garlic come in ) or is there bacterial action at work ? To repeat the question for the Scanners among us: Does anyone on this forum make "microbial extract" from EF castings AND look at it through a microscope ?
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chuckiebtoo
Original Author
18 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Damn, Kelly, that is exactly some of the type of information I was asking for, and I WILL phone you when I get my "castings" together.

The article I referenced has been, pretty much, my basis for using ACT, and most recent blog posts have not necessarily concurred with most of it, so I was just seeking, on a forum that seems to exist for such things, more than I've been able to come up with.

I will research the sites you so graciously provided with a new found appreciation of the controversy of the subject matter.

Chuckiebtoo
Karchita
18 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Thanks, Kelly, for winning me over from the 'ACT is snake oil' camp to the 'let's wait and see' camp.

I trust my gut with regard to the benefits of vermicompost, so I can respect that others feel the same about ACT. Can't you hurry it up with that hard data? :-)
John_I
18 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Our worm farm, Worm World, has had good results with worm casting tea on our plants. In fact, we have decided to make our our own casting tea bags and sell to the public. One bag will make 1 gallon of casting tea.

Here is a link that might be useful: Worm World
whip1 Zone 5 NE Ohio
18 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Kelly, I'm curious why you don't want to share with the forum? I'm kinda new, please excuse the ignorance if this has been discussed. I've been tinkering with the teas. My feelings are mixed, and would appreciate any insight!
Oil_Robb
11 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
LOLOL....PPPSSSSTTT.....Guttenberg invented the printing press about 500 years ago, I dare say humans have been gardening for about 30,000 years however if the compost tea fad was this great earth shattering discovery it would have been put to paper 500 years ago. get real people, you have been duped...just a small comment my plants love CO2.
PRO
equinoxequinox
11 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
chuckiebtoo - 0ne of my favorite posters.

There are more things in heaven and earth...

Being older and having seen lots of things change...
put the baby to sleep on it's back, no it's stomach, no it's back. Use a glass bottle, no plastic, no glass. In reality nature already made the best container and dispensing system.

Things that people have tossed out as old fashioned, dumb, backwards, have been rediscovered. Some people even use old fashioned 33 RPM records. Why? Because they sound better than the new stuff.

Things like those preperations buried in the ground in cow horns and ACT maybe just have not found the science behind them yet.

In the future the whole idea of a sterile operating room I think will be replaced with a one where much like spraying ACT the room is sprayed with a mixture of good bacteria thus driving out the bad bacteria for much the same reasons as listed in the first post.

You know those and hand sanitizers? Now they find out bacteria can grow in them and spread when you clean your hands.

Also the means to get extra oxygen into the solution is mechanical.
DWD2
11 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
chuckiebtoo, Vermicompost tea is the subject of a lot of research. The University of Minnesota link is helpful. Here are a few other links to research describing the positive properties of vermicompost teas. If one looks at the current literature, it seems Linda Chalker-Scott of WSU needs to read a bit more and consider modifying her opinion of aerated compost teas.

http://www.humusplantula.com/index_htm_files/produccion-con-te-de-compost.pdf
http://humusplantula.com/index_htm_files/nematodos-y-te-de-vermicompost.pdf
http://mysare.sare.org/mySARE/assocfiles/937992V7-Radovich_etal-CompostTea.pdf

Here is a link that might be useful: U MN vermicompost tea
DWD2
11 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
chuckiebtoo, Vermicompost tea is the subject of a lot of research. The University of Minnesota link is helpful. Here are a few other links to research describing the positive properties of vermicompost teas. If one looks at the current literature, it seems Linda Chalker-Scott of WSU needs to read a bit more and consider modifying her opinion of aerated compost teas.

http://www.humusplantula.com/index_htm_files/produccion-con-te-de-compost.pdf
http://humusplantula.com/index_htm_files/nematodos-y-te-de-vermicompost.pdf
http://mysare.sare.org/mySARE/assocfiles/937992V7-Radovich_etal-CompostTea.pdf

Here is a link that might be useful: U MN vermicompost tea
barbararose21101
10 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Elaine Ingram's site says tea is for foliar feeding ( & don't add molasses !) and extract is better for applying to the soil ? Apparently, however, extracting takes a special machine. And add humus ? Apparently it comes in a variety of forms. Not something I routinely see for sale.

Does anyone on this forum extract ?
barbararose21101
10 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
If I put wetted castings in a paint straining bag or a jelly cloth and squeeze out the wet, is that extracting ?
barbararose21101
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I made a mistake in the post Ingram/Chalker-Scott:

Ingram advises adding humic acid, not humus.
hummersteve
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Interesting thread-- Not sure whats true and what is not. Im getting my virgin experience this spring already used two batches and Im sure in a few weeks I will be either disappointed or praising the efftects ACT.

What little I know of the process its not effective at all after say 4 hrs. Yet places like Jims worm farm are bottling and selling. So how long would their so called ACT sit in those bottles before someone put in an order and how much longer to get it. Im sure many people will buy the stuff and be disappointed at the outcome. At any rate I have to reserve my opinion for later-- insect repellant, disease suppressant, plant invigorant, ??? . I will have an opinion later.
barbararose21101
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I read somewhere that the tea can be treated to be more stable, but that it loses some of the bacteria. I think it was the Ingram site.
pskvorc
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
For what it's worth from a vermiculture novice, but with some scientific and life experience, I'm 100% behind the concept of "Do what works for you" with regard to liquefied worm poop.

I would add several examples where "science" and "technology" have been added to some human endeavor that has been around AND functioning just fine without the science and technology for a LONG TIME. Unfortunately, too many of my personal examples are currently not politically correct, and people would simply get distracted from THE POINT.

What's THE POINT, you ask?

THE POINT is this: Science, and applied science (AKA "technology") are PROCESSES. As such the RESULTS from the PROCESS can be INTERPRETED in MANY ways. Unfortunately, today, people have been INDOCTRINATED to "believe" that IF the scientific PROCESS has been applied to a particular subject, THEN the results - REGARDLESS OF WHAT THEY ARE - can be INTERPRETED to MEAN SOMETHING.

THAT IS FALSE.

A great deal of the results of "scientific research", while "statistically significant at the 95% level", are COMPLETELY irrelevant to practical, 'real life', application. Let me see if I can abstract this a bit from worm poop.

In Great Britain, they have extraordinary complex laws about how livestock can be killed. At the moment, (it changes frequently based on "new" "science"), there is a "gun" that delivers a steel rod through the animal's forehead to the brain. The force applied to the rod; the diameter of the rod, and the length of the rod, are all specified in excruciating "scientific" detail. However, the view of 'the forest' that is lost in the trees is that "dead", is "dead". There are no "degrees" of deadness. If you are dead, you are ALL dead. You cannot be like the "Farm Boy" in The Princess Bride, "mostly dead".

Now, comes the "science" and "scientific logic". If a steel rod of "x" dimensions, driven at a velocity of "y" can kill an 350kg steer, then a steel rod of "2x" dimensions driven at a velocity of "2y" will be "better". Who can argue with that? Makes "perfect" sense, right? WRONG! DEAD IS DEAD. You can't be MORE dead because I hit you harder.

So what's this got to do with "aerating" vermicompost, you ask? Simply this:

While some "scientific" process can produce some "scientific" results that get 'sanctified' by "peer review" (ptooey, that term leaves a VERY bad taste in my mouth), the APPLICATION of the INTERPRETATION of those results to REAL LIFE may be COMPLETELY irrelevant or even ABSURD.

Until there is IRREFUTABLE evidence from ACTUAL APPLICATION - NOT "scientific" "proof" - I think one should use, and continue to use methods that they BELIEVE are "best". More importantly, they should NOT ARGUE ABOUT IT! THAT is patently ABSURD, and here's why:

LIFE is not an "engineering" project. LIFE is complex. LIFE is "variable". Furthermore, it is not only "possible" it is a CERTAINTY that what "I" do in some application will be FAR more complex than I am WILLING to keep track of. Therefore, what "you" do will CERTAINLY be "different" in ways that "I" am not interested in "tracing down".

Aerate the hell out of 'your' compost tea. DON'T touch your compost tea. Add a POUND of molasses to your tea. Don't have a jar of molasses within 500 feet of your "tea" brewery. Real Life is showing CLEARLY, that DIFFERENT PEOPLE WILL GET DIFFERENT RESULTS.

I'm damn tired of trying to "fine tune" LIFE based on ABSURD and slavish DEVOTION to "the Best" ANYTHING, especially if "the Best" is determined by some "scientific" process instead of REAL LIFE. I return to: "What are you going to believe? My peer reviewed, "scientific" EVIDENCE, or your lying eyes?"

Paul
PRO
equinoxequinox
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Well they get that EM Effective Microorganism stuff somehow and it is in a bottle. Don't know how they do it. They dehydrate probiotics and sell that. I do not know how it all works. Brew it yourself tea out of our own slightly aged vermicompost so the babies can hatch would seem to be the way to go. Non chlorinated water too.
Joyousfree
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
If I'd have found this forum a few months earlier, I could have incorporated this whole question into my chemistry capstone project and run some kind of test on a bunch of differently brewed teas. Dang. Oh, well... Interesting question. I'll store it in the back of my mind for the future.

I haven't been planning to make ANY teas, aerated or not, because it sounds like a tedious pain in the rear, and I don't even have a garden. I plan to donate the VC to other people's gardens. The evidence would have to be pretty compelling for me to go to all that trouble, unless I get a wild hair to devise a little experiment like arizona_wormer just mentioned. But I'd probably do that just with my VC first.
pskvorc
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
"Discussion" is fine. "Doing" is better. For all of the extraordinary value that the internet is, it often generates tempests in teapots. Even vermicomposting "tea" pots.

When one looks at or participates in a long thread (or multiple threadS) on a specific topic, particularly one in which there are differing opinions, it is easy to get mislead by the illusion that people are arguing over matters that 'matter'. Mostly, people are just expressing opinions, and speculating on what might be of value. I think that is, more than anything else, FUN. I think that most are being "Greeks" - to use arizona_wormer's illustration - but casual observation often leads to the erroneous conclusion that everyone is trying to being "Roman".

Personally, I think aeration has become one of those "cult things". First, some well-respected "guru" disseminates "truth". Next their acolytes embrace it and "spread the Gospel". When that "truth" gets challenged, the acolytes do a lot of harumphing not because the CONCEPT is challenged, but because acknowledging the challenge is to acknowledge that one's mentor could be wrong, and second, that the challenge 'assaults' one's ego.

In the past in discussions like this I have been inclined to say, "Do what you feel is right." I now think that comment is superfluous. Most people DO do what they think 'feels' right without me having to 'remind' them. Nowadays, the comment I make is:

When I choose NOT to do what YOU think 'feels' right, don't be offended. If you are "right", then my unwillingness to 'follow' your lead is my own punishment.

I'm not particularly worried about being 'wrong' with respect to "aerate" or "not to aerate". There really is NO need for all of us to be in lock-step, goose-stepping down the rabbit-trails of life.

Paul
barbararose21101
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Does the tomato test make me a Roman ?
I like that story.
pskvorc
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I'd say "Yes"...

Paul
barbararose21101
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I'm bumping this thread because I have a question and because I have started another (Romanic) test, The blog will be in the Tea for Roses thread. I think the science has progressed since our discussions last year, but right now I'm more interested in my test than in what's out there.

There is a link in the Tea for Roses thread to a test that was not conclusively successful: that is, there were apparent improvements but not the kind of "results" that rosarians prefer.

So -- instead of every two weeks it's every week, and following Elaine Ingham's advice, I began before first bud. More details there as to that test .

Today's question is, if I am keeping tea (Aerated VC tea) for days, as Elaine wrote one could, if kept aerated,

does the tea need light or need to be protected from light ?

I'll post this on the Yahoo compost tea group tho I find that process something of a slog. Elaine's patience with questions is amazing.

When I get my nerve up I'll ask The Guys with the microscopes, too.

In the meantime, working in ignorance , what's that saying about the triumph of hope over experience ?

I think the emergency application of castings to the transplanted tree peony may have saved it. Something did. It's budding. When /if it blooms, I'll decree that Worm Art.

Aerated vermicompost tea: fanciful or fact??

arizona_wormer

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Aerated vermicompost tea: fanciful or fact??

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