Are the bottom of the leaves turning purple also? This is pretty usual and means it's a bit past time to fertilize. Find something with a high middle number - around 10-50-10. They need phosphate the most at this point.

Hey, don't fret the purple stems. Could be a temperature or light issue. The seedlings will be okay 'purple' stems is the only issue. Wait it out. Let the cotyledons feed the sprouts and do their photosynthesis thing right now without any added fertilizer products just yet.

****

Agree with Bill.

And instead of delving into what you might do to get rid of the purple stems, just ignore them, that's what I do. All will be well when you get the plants set in outside in the warmth of early summer.

Carolyn

I didn't say to fertilize just because of the stems - I said to fertilize if the bottom of the leaves were purple, which is a sure sign of phosphate deficiency. I use an organic, no fertilizer included seed starting mix and often have to add phosphate this soon.
Many starting mixes have phosphate in them so I don't think you have to be too worried about it killing your plants.

I should have added to use it very diluted, if you're going to at all. And I'll double stress that only that middle number should be high - you don't want a lot of nitrogen at this point.

I don't want to argue - just stating a different approach. It hasn't killed my seedlings.

I use my own compost for germinating seeds. I seem to be doing OK this year.

I throw vegetation in my compost pile year around. Grass clippings and kitchen detritus, but never anything with seeds, nor animal... except that I throw cow manure in there occasionally.

What kind of plant waste can I throw in my compost to boost phosphate content?

I do not have a "purple problem," by the way. But I have heard that P is hard to "absorb." Hard to make soluble for intake into the plant... perhaps. Aren't phosphates readily soluble in water? PO4---, no? Seems to be a big, clunky polarized ion to me, and it should be quite soluble in water.

Can anyone comment?

I do not have a "purple problem," by the way. But I have heard that P is hard to "absorb." Hard to make soluble for intake into the plant... perhaps. Aren't phosphates readily soluble in water? PO4---, no? Seems to be a big, clunky polarized ion to me, and it should be quite soluble in water.

*****

P is very soluble in water, but it isn't absorbed via root uptake when the temps are too cold. Thus the purple. Above Bill referred to a possible temp issues and I agreed and what I think both of us were referring to was too low temps as a possible cause of the purpling although it's more often purple leaves that folks see.

You can get around lack of P root uptake by spraying with dilute fish or seaweed prep or MG or Peters if you aren't organic, but I see no need to since once the plants are outside and inground and happy and warm the purple disappears. ( smile)

Carolyn

i have some brandywine tomato's that are about a foot tall they have purple stems and some of the leaves have a purplish tint to them i took one to the local ext. office and showed them they told me that these was the healthist plants they have ever seen the leaves are so dark green they are almost black in color... and i have been using fish emulsion on these plants...

MickeyJane, you say "I don't want to argue - just stating a different approach."

Great, but I suggest you read more carefully first.

In the original post, Topnotch clearly stated the purple stemmed seedlings "are presently showing the cotyledons. No true leaves."

You then asked, "Are the bottom of the leaves turning purple also? This is pretty usual and means it's a bit past time to fertilize. They need phosphate the most at this point."

Did you not read that there were no true leaves to turn purple?

Then after it was pointed out the original post asked about seedlings in the cotyledon stage without true leaves showing had purple stems, you now say, "I didn't say to fertilize just because of the stems - I said to fertilize if the bottom of the leaves were purple ..."

Again, there are no bottoms of the leaves because they're are no leaves. Please read more carefully.

Also, why in the world, after again recommending a dose of phosphorus, would you end your message with "it hasn't killed my seedlings."

Who said it would? Where did anyone suggest that a light dose of phosphorus or any other fertilizer in an appropriate amount will kill seedlings.

All I was suggesting is that when newly emerged tomato sprouts are in the cotyledon stage without true leaves there is no need for additional nutrients beyond what the cotyledons provide once they begin photosythesis. That is their purpose in fact ... to initiate photosynthesis and feed the emergence of the first true leaves with the nutrients stored inside the cotyledons.

My opinion is that many newly emerged tomato sprouts will have a purple tint to their stems particularly closer to the point of emergence than to the developing tip. I see it all the time. Some types seem more prone to it than others. And I think it's temperature related and variety specific.

Yes, indeed when you see the underside of true leaves with a purplish tint, that is a sign of phosphorus deficiency. But again, the symptoms can be a result of a variety or combination of environmental and soil conditions.

I have seen a constant theme relating to the temperature, what would you say the optimum or recommended temperature would/should be?

Thanks all for responding to the posting.

In regard to the cotyledon stage, how thick should the stem be and what's the general rule of thumb of how long they take to show the first (and second) true sets of leaves? Is there a timeline you can post of link me to. As an update, the seedlings continue to be the same color and maybe a bit taller from the original posting from yesterday. Not much, if anything has changed. I really haven't done anything different either, as we sort this topic out.

Not sure if this should be another topic, keeping things in order, but since we are talking about NPK, nitrogen (N), phosphorus (P), and potassium (K) elements, I gather this would be a good time to find out about brands and types regarding organic/non-organic liquid/granular fertilizers and elements to add, etc. Since I gather I will need it sooner or later. At the same time, I would also like to stay on topic of the purple stems on the recently germinated seedlings.

Thanks

~~~ Is there a timeline you can post ... ~~~

Topnotchveggie and all, I'm not an expert and do not post these pics as an effort to brag as I'm sure they are not exceptional ... more along the lines of "If I can do it, anybody can :-) It is great that we have true experts willing to share and help but most of this stuff needn't belong exclusively to the illumninati :-)

This is what I have as seedling timeline for 08.

All seeds with the exception of Mortgage Lifters were planted on March 21.

3-28-08

4-5-08

4-6-08

4-9-08

4-21-08

5-5-08

I've got a plant that is looking a little purple and if it'll stop raining and I get some decent light, I'll take a pic but I'm thinking it may be variety specific since all my plants have been treated the same throughout.

Purple stems = stress. As long as i know what's stressing them, i don't worry too much...

THese babies were stressed because they were way overdue for transplanting, but they'll be fine, now that they have room to stretch their tootsie-rootsies.

Here are some where I maybe do need the help of the Illuminati:-)

This is Early Wonder. The color is less vibrant in the pic but there is a slight purple hue under the leaves. Planted in ground on 5-3-08 so there has been some recent stress but nobody else looks like this. All in ground plants got Earl's recipe.

Here is its potted counterpart, transplanted to a bucket on 4-29-08 using Expert Gardener's Perfect mix. The spare also looks better than the inground version.

Here is Brandywine OTV, potted same way, same day, bigger pot, same place.

The underside of one of its leaves.

Its in ground counterpart looks a kinda poorly too.

The spare looks better than either but has been somewhat more protected from temps and the recent rains.

{{gwi:1336483}}

The in ground got Earl's recipe. The potted got fresh potting soil with the built in fert. The spares got the same potting soil and one full strength MG treatment a few days ago. They all got one 1/4 strength MG treatment at first leaf stage. Thats it. Been thinking about a foilar spray on the yellow leaves to check for reaction but its been raining so they definately don't need more water.

AGG looks similar but not as bad as OTV but German Queen is doing fine and the 10 day younger MLs are catching up quickly so I don't think its something Potato leaf related.

Here are the pots today, where they've been from day 1.

And the Garden today.

Ortho disease control has been used on all plants twice. I have one spare of each variety. Should I use them or give em a little more time and a foilar fert treatment?

Nice pics. I still haven't figured out how to post pics in here.........even after reading instructions! I think the instructions assume one know at least something, but I am one of those who knows nothing, sees nothing, and hears nothing.

Dave, i hate to say, because it looks like you know what you're doing, but the yellow plants look overwatered to me.

Tomatogreenthumb--I HATE using GW's upload. and it's real stingy on photo size...if you use one of the sites like photobucket.com and upload your pics there, you just copy-and-paste the URL, which they put right under the picture (you want 'direct link' for this site) right here in the message box, and there doesn't seem to be a limit on pic size (i'm talking about the bytes).

Give it a try, we looove those pics!

~~~ but the yellow plants look overwatered to me. ~~~

Thanks, I guess its possible but each set has been treated the same inside of each set (inground, potted, spares) Planted the same day, kept in the same spot ... sorta why I showed all of them.

I haven't a clue whats wrong with Early Wonder but its a lot better. Stems seem more purple but the leaves are much greemer and fuller today. Gave all yellow leaves and EW a foliar spray of full strength MG and epson salts last night. Nothing noticable on OTV and AGG yet.

I believe Fusion mentioned AGG is a very heavy feeder but I'd think that was in fruiting stage and I don't recall the same mentioned about OTV.

The problem solver post has some pics for nutrient deficentcies. Since they're droopy, I don't think its sulphur and I've no idea how they could be salt damaged so I'm leaning toward N. I've been kinda stingy with the fert since its one of the few things that you control and is irreversibly fatal if over done. They were doing fine without it until recently.

If they don't perk up from that, unless someone has some other idea, I'll wait until no chance of frost and replace them with the spares.

Purple stems on young tomato seedlings is usually caused by being too cold, which causes a lock up in the stem of essential trace elements and nutrients,

The best way to cure it (within 48 hours) is increase the temperature by either bringing them inside in the warmth or some other way,the temp must be around 70 to 73 degrees F,for a quick (48 hour) recovery, or mid sixties- for a 72 hour recovery) and at the same time water them a bit with a fairly strong solution of straight seaweed liquid -not the fetilizer type, as it contains all the trace elements necessary, but I have found also that just a pinch of standard (Miracle grow in water) -once only, also does the trick and returns all the stems to a nice translucent green again- because M.G contains the trace elements Boron and Molybdenum plus zinc, which are essential to tomto health- they look a lot better with it than without it,- just a pinch of M.G. once- in a weak solution will not make them have a sudden growth spurt-but will restore the seedlings to normal,

despite what other information you may come across regarding seedlings with blue or purple stems- if left to their own devices to recover naturally it will put them back and delay their natural growth cycle by several weeks and make the tomatoes later than usual- because if left to recover naturally they normally just sit there in that condition for two or three weeks or more without budging an inch, losing valuable growing time.

Here's an update with photos to provide you with a better physical reference. The paper clip depicted in one of the photos measures 1.65 inches long. The photos have not intentionally had any color alterations.

Earlier this week, (May 12+) some of the tomato seedlings have begun to show their first true set of leaves. However the stems continue to be various shades of purple, ranging in color from variety to variety. None of the stems are thick, nor are they tall. They are all watered to keep the soil moist (+ as needed). The seedlings are brought outside in temperatures 65 degrees and higher and brought inside during the overnight. They have yet to be transplanted to larger containers. When should that occur?

Seedling varieties include, but are not all depicted in the photos are: Mortgage Lifter, Beefsteak, Sweet 100, generic larger red cherry etc.

Thanks.

These are all quite leggy and are well ready for transplanting up to individual cell packs/containers. Otherwise they look great!!

Transplant them deeply - to just below the lowest set of leaves - into a soil-less growing mix with some mild fertilizer in it. many good brands are available. And try to provide them with more light when inside so that they don't get leggy on you again.

The purple stems are quite normal. We all have them to varying degrees and they pose no threat to the plants nor do they indicate any nutrient deficiency. The plants out grow the condition quickly.

watered to keep the soil moist (+ as needed) Could easily be too much. Allow the soil to at least surface dry before watering - tomato plants do not like being kept wet all the time.

Enjoy your plants.

Do I have it correct that those are current pics of the seedlings discussed in the OP as planted in mid April?

If so, something is bad wrong. Bad soil, air, water ... something is way wrong.

I would strongly urge a fresh bag of a different mix for transplanting and maybe have your water tested at least by your county health dept. Do you have other inside plants that you water? That could help rule out a water problem.

They are yours but IMO, even at that tender state, 50F is warm enough to be outside for a while during daylight, with filtered sun and protected from strong wind.

Good point Dave! If the seedlings in these pictures posted today are already more than a month old and just now showing nubs of true leaves then yes, there is something wrong. Month old seedlings should be much more developed.

Then again I've never seen a tomato plant that could live off just the cotyledons for over a month so I am hoping these were either planted much later than mid-April or these are NOT current pics.

Dave

Too little, too shallow starting mix.

Light source too far from top of seedlings.

Temperature too low from pre-germination to current stage.

Pot-up immediately and very deeply with the cotyledons just a half-inch above the top level of the planting mix in the new containers. If you're trying to conserve potting mix for some unknown reason, pot them up two to a 4-inch box, recycled beer cup, yogurt cup, whatever ... and cut the root wad in half to separate them later at a subsequent pot-up or at plant-out.

If you're gonna continue to keep them inside, set the florescent lights right down on top of the seedlings but not touching for a few days. Force the emergence of some true leaves.

If you're gonna start puttin' them outside, put them in dappled sunlight sheltered from the wind for a few days up to a week. Keep them out of the direct sun from 10:00 - late afternoon. Gradually move them out into more sun after a week or so in partial/dappled sun.

When you see fully emerged true leaves and the second set of new leaves beginning to emerge, give'm a shot of high phosphorus liquid fertilizer like Miracle-Grow rose formula (18-24-16) or Miracle-Grow Bloom Booster (15-30-15). Mix it weak ... like only a teaspoon per gallon water.

If you're in zone 6, you need to get a move on. I can't believe those seedlings are a full month old. They look like they were planted about May 1 or even later! I got some for late crop in beer cups outside that I planted the seeds April 27 with two full sets of true leaves ... been outside the entire time through windstorms, rain, etc.

A puple stem is a happy stem :)

I've had worse looking babies come through just fine! Plenty of good advice already, and next year you'll be that much better for it.

Good luck!

Thanks all for taking the time to answer my postings. Please add your insight to assist in helping these seedlings going and doing well this season. I think I have gone through most of the questions and posted responses below, if you feel as if I had missed any, please feel free to repost and I will respond.

mickeyjane,
How early on have you noticed your phosphate deficiency and how long there after did you add the diluted liquid fertilizer, so I can keep that in mind for the future.

carolyn137,
Take a look at the photos I posted yesterday so you will have a physical reference point. They were seeded 3.5-4 weeks ago and germinated 5 to 7 days after.

mrmulcher,
How often have you been adding the emulsion?

DigDirt,
When you mention that they are quite leggy, what would be a good reference point to compare to? They were seeded in those and other containers for germination only and will transplant them to individual containers, how much of the soil-less mix should be used in each container/cell pack? Is there a percentage or rule of thumb? When transplanting I would assume that a liquid fertilizer would be better for its present purpose compared to a slow release pellet version? "Otherwise they look great, " thanks, although I am not too sure if they really are looking so good, considering some of the comments I have read. Clarifying my watering, I do allow the top of the soil-less mix to dry a bit, prior to adding. As per your follow-up post, the photos were all taken yesterday and they were all seeded about 3.5 to 4 weeks ago and germinated within 5 to 7 days from then, so they are not yet over a month old.

Dave,
Thanks for adding your photos to the forum, for a reference. In regards to your most recent posting, my photos were all taken yesterday. Yikes? The commercially available soil-less mix and water are also being used to germinate other seed varieties (plants/veg) and they all seem to be doing fine. As you recommend, I will place them outside in cooler temperature, but don't understand how that would be an issue, if they need warm temperature and light. How are your plants doing since you last posted the photos?

Hoosiercherokee,
We are not trying conserve potting mix. The seeds were just seeded together in those containers for germination purposes, and wanted to follow a method for transplating properly. I have been placing them outside in the warmer temps during the days, but maybe they have had too much direct outside sun light early on - possibility? They have been brought inside during the evenings. I know, we have to get moving, that's what concerns me them most, aside the fact that I want to provide the best care to the seedlings to prosper this season in the garden. Yes, they were seeded in the mix 3.5-4 weeks ago and germinated 5 to 7 days later. Can you post some images as a comparison, as you mentioned you seem to have your later crop plants out performing these?
Tmmy
Great picture, what are the stats on those? They look great.

Keep posting all!

Hi topnotchveggie - I fear you have been so overwhelmed with info and mixed inputs that you've fallen into the coddling of my seedlings trap. ;) It happened to all of us at one time but if you want these to get into the garden any time soon - you are already running late - it's time to back off on babying them and move into the aggressive tomato grower mode, ok?

For now, forget the purple stems and any possible phosphorous deficiency - not a problem. Your plants are stunted because they have been in this seedling tray far, far too long (too little mix and too little light) and they are stressed by the in and out, in and out treatment.

These seedlings in your latest pics are a month old for all practical purposes and they are far behind where they should be by now. So as Dave said above something is wrong and as hoosier said the best bet is that they are still in a germination tray for some reason.

At one month seedlings should be 3" tall and have 2 sets of true leaves. Leggy is any stem of more than 1" in height. These are pics of 1 month old seedlings that had already been transplanted from the seedling trays a week before the photo. Sorry they are a bit blurry.

{{gwi:1336493}}

{{gwi:1336495}}

The seeds were just seeded together in those containers for germination purposes, and wanted to follow a method for transplating properly.

Ok, that's fine but then why have they been left in it for so long. If you are going to germinate this way - many of us do - then the seedlings get transplanted as soon as they germinate. They don't stay in the germination trays for more than a few days at the very most. They simply can't grow there - too shallow, too crowded, can't develop anything but a single tap root or two, and few if any nutrients. (Note how deep the cell trays are in Tim's pic.)

The standard transplanting recommendation of "wait for the first set of true leaves" does not apply when using shallow germination trays.

how much of the soil-less mix should be used in each container/cell pack?

You fill the cell packs with moist media and punch a hole in the center. Insert the seedling way down into the mix so that the majority of the stem is buried.

I would assume that a liquid fertilizer would be better for its present purpose compared to a slow release pellet version?

Not necessarily. You have to use such a diluted rate of any liquid that the end results are the same.

but don't understand how that would be an issue, if they need warm temperature and light.

You are confusing soil temps with air temps perhaps? They need warm soil temps to germinate and grow on. But cool air temps, if it gets them light at the same time are no problem. Your plants are being stressed by the in and out, in and out treatment. If the danger of frost is past - and it is in your zone - then they will be much better off outside as the other Dave recommended. That is also why several of us have said you need not be concerned about any phosphorous deficiency. That is not the problem here.

I hate to end on a negative note but unless these plants make a marked turn around very quickly - and they may if you will very quickly get them transplanted - they aren't going to be ready for the garden any time soon and your production will be significantly delayed. Some purchased seedlings might be a good idea. Just something to consider.

I hope this is of help. It's time for you to get out the lion tamers whip and chair and get these guys in line! ;)

Dave

Topnotch,

As I read this thread and your statement of other plants being fine (very good news by the way) ... then the only thing material in my view, is Dave and Bill's observation of too shallow growing medium and left too long. I'm not qualified to disagree with either of them but I do bring my seedlings in at night to avoid the stray shower or critter damage while unattended or temps below 50F and have noticed no tracable harm. Once a robust 6-9" or so with favorable forcast and they are out then too. I do keep the grow lights within a couple inches for 16hrs/day but a few hours in the sun and air is worth a lot. Even better if you can set your lights near a window where they can get both.

If you notice the time line I posted, my seedlings were repotted about every 2 weeks and in the ground near six. The first time as Bill mentioned to within a half inch of the Cotyledons. Next, a half inch from the lowest leaf and finally planted similarly in their ultimate spots. Even after increacing planting depth 3 times, the best might approach 2' tall and several would measure 1.5' across. A couple Red Robins have blooms.

The poorest were begining to respond to better weather and more feed but those held in reserve were so much better that 10 of 40 were replaced. Perhaps a pic or two tomorrow.

I've never used the tray method but should I, I'll have learned from your misfortune.

Thanks,

Dave (the other one :-)

"Hoosiercherokee, We are not trying conserve potting mix."

Well, you're not using enough depth of starter mix to get good root support on your sprouts. You need at least 1-1/2 to 2 inches depth in a container that drains and is capable of absorbing water from the bottom so the mix stays evenly moist.

"The seeds were just seeded together in those containers for germination purposes, and wanted to follow a method for transplating properly."

Yeah, I've done that often ... started a mess of seeds crowded together in a small container ... then pricked them out when they first stood up out of the mix and spread their cotyledons ... like a week or two after planting the seeds, depending on how quickly they sprouted. But 5 week?!? and only still just starting to show the tips of true leaves emerging?!?

"Yes, they were seeded in the mix 3.5-4 weeks ago and germinated 5 to 7 days later. Can you post some images as a comparison, as you mentioned?"

Well, I don't have any pics of those most recent starts, but like Dave (digdirt) is saying, here is what some month-old seedlings should look like. Here's some I planted earlier this year in 2-inch deep starter cells on February 26 and the pictures taken March 28:

They started out on a heat pad at 80 - 85*F until they germinated. Then moved under florescent lights immediately and at room temp about 70*F daytime and 60*F night.

Topnotch,

This thread is getting awfully pic heavy so perhaps a part 2 post is in order soon ???

I unintentionally embellished quite a bit on the height claim last eve as the tallest is closer to 18" than 2' but the 1.5' across statement is accurate.

The garden this a.m. 2 days shy of 2 months since sowing date, 16 days since most went in the ground, several replaced with the same variety held in reserve 2 days ago.

4-19-08

Lemon Boy per usual is very easy to grow.

This Mortgage lifter is not quite 50 days since sowing date, was a slow germinator and a slow, puny sprout.

A couple blooms on Red Robin.

Best of luck with your sprouts.

AS far as I know, when I had tomato plants that had very dark leaves and a tinge of purple/black to them, I was always told buy my father, a tomato gardener for years and years, that the dark/purple hue was a good thing. It meant that the plants we really taking in the nutrients from the manure and were extremely healthy. However, these were plants, not seedlings. Christy

Update: Throughout the week I transplanted the seedlings from the smaller germination trays into larger containers making sure not to disturb the root systems that were establishing. I also added additional soil-less mix so they will have room to spread and develop their roots. I made sure to create a soil line up to about the first set of true leaves (burying the stem pretty deeply) and placed them outside in full sun. I have yet to see any type of physical changes, but will keep you updated. I gather, they may need a few days to acclimate to their new surroundings.

and placed them outside in full sun. I have yet to see any type of physical changes, but will keep you updated. I gather, they may need a few days to acclimate to their new surroundings.

While we have no idea how big these plants are now, placing inside grown transplants such as yours "outside in the full sun" without first gradually harding them off is a great way to kill them and kill them fast. No seedlings, regardless of age, should be exposed to direct sun immediately after transplanting.

Learn about the requirement called hardening-off plants. Please, if it isn't already too late, remove them from the direct sun and place them in shade and protected from the wind. The normal routine for hardening off, which is discussed in great detail in this forum, is 1 hour the first day and increased exposure by an hour or two daily. Only then can they safely go into the direct sun.

Dave

digdirt,

Thanks for responding. I began the hardening off process of the transplants prior to them being transplanted to the larger containers. During that time frame they were gradually introduced to the full sun.

thanks.

Thanks for this topic i have just learned sooooo much. Happy growing
from nz

Very Old thread but a common issue/topic. We will soon be dealing with it , in a few months. I will start sowing 5 to 6 weeks before I can start hardening off. About 4 weeks before the LFD.

I'm a newb at this. I had a garden many years as a kid and now getting back into it as an adult. I've started several batches of tomatoes from seeds. I've read the comments about the purple underside of the leaves and the purple stem might be due to cold. My guess is that it doesn't have much, or anything, to do with the temperature. My seeds have been indoors in my office where the temperature is around 75 degrees.

My uneducated guess is that the purple is a good thing as has to do with getting light. I say this because my seedlings had germinate for about 6 days before I got my grow lights. During those first 6 days they only got a couple hours of direct sunlight and the rest was indirect. At that time the stems were green and a bit translucent. After I installed the grow lights, which I keep on 24/7, the stems started to turn purple.

Nick

Yes, It has to do with getting light and there are also other factors, me thinks.
Somehow, it has to do with the uptake of "P"., as well. The experienced growers will tell you that ignore it ! The seedling will come out of it, as the time goes on. This is given that the starting soil has adequate nutrients or you supply them, when the seedlings start growing true leave. That is like the time the chick breaks the eggshell and comes out..then it needs foods and drink.

Sey

I figured I would clear this up for everyone. The purple stems are not attributed to PH inbalances, light or heat issues. It's just a different variety of tomato. Many times people buy "bundle packs" which at times get different species mixed in. I currently have vine tomatoes, hot house (or beefsteak) tomatoes, and heirloom tomatos growing in my garden and the heirlooms are the only to have purple stems. For roma tomatos I can't say as I've never grown them before. The first picture is vine tomato, the second is heirloom and third is Hothouse (I believe, I plant in jumbles of one plant) Hope this clears things up for everyone

Well, I don't think you cleared anything. You just showed that different varieties have different requirements. It's mostly about the root system and its efficiency, but sometimes also they simply need more of something compared to others.