Hi Theresa,
Here is my two cents, I grew up around agricultural concerns, indeed, I have used chemicals like Sevin, and many even worse, and can see a place for them. I do believe it is better to use them to address a specific issue, as opposed to a preventative measure. To me, the best preventative measure is to have healthy soil, vigorous plants and to try, as best as possible, to limit the opportunity for pests to take advantage of your garden. I am a believer in the idea that a plant that is healthy and vigorous, with good brix and open growing, will have minimal pest issues. That being said, sometimes, it will take a chunk of chemical spraying. More power to those that would give up a harvest rather than use chemicals, but, that isn't necessarily me.

A few comments from a lurker:

digdirt, I do not think you were rude or condescending, and I feel you have raised many good points.

Theresa, I just don't think you can prevent problems from happening the way you are trying. I understand why you want to do so, though. Still, it really isn't fair of you to disregard comments from people because they are not in the same zone as you. Obviously different geographical regions will have differing gardening challenges. That doesn't mean that people in other zones can't offer legit feedback.

Stores sell things all the time that are dangerous: cigarettes, magnetix (those toys that were recently recalled), pesticides, etc. Just because Walmart sells it doesn't mean it's environmentally safe or friendly. People used to drive their kids without carseats. Would you still do that? People used to eat beef for dinner six nights a week. Sound like a good idea?

I don't think people should post on a board like this if they aren't open to honest feedback.

Rachel

WHAT EVER!!! I'M DONE.I did not disregard or not want honest feed back. I SAID I HEARD WHAT HE AND OTHERS SAID AND WILL USE THE SEVINS ONLY WHEN I NEED IT but none of you will stop me from ever using it. That is MY CHOICE. You "ORGANTIC" gardners take yourselves WAY to seriously. I did not mean if Walmart sells it it's safe, I meant if it's a bad as you people say instead of telling little old me, do something about it on a larger scale. You need to stop it being sold at all. I looked at the bag today and on the front it says"ALSO FOR USE ON DOGS AND CATS FOR FLEA AND TICK CONTROL and your worried about me sprinkling a little on my tomatoes. I don't know about you but I love my dog and my cat.The sevins dust is put out by the Geo Tec Inc Their number is 888-648-9855.Complain to them not me. Theresa (who is very tired of all this)

The term 'organic' is used very loosely.

Definition 1.

To the average joe American general public:

An all natural product that is grown from the goodness of the earth and has never been sprayed with anything. Even acid rain can not fall on it. This product tastes better, has more vitamins and minerals, and gives you that warm and fuzzy, cruncy granola feeling that makes you want to put on the wool socks, hiking boots and move to Vermont when you eat it.

__________________________________________________

Definition 2:

Carbon based.

_________________________________________________

of course the USDA will baffle you with B.S. for about 20 paragraphs and most will give up reading the definition before they talk in circles some more to get to CARBON BASED.

What the average american does not realize is that There are a whole host of 'organic' pesticides that are widely used on large american corporate farms. This list included Rotenone which was supossedly linked to parkinsons disease. (link attached).

Not trying to change the subject or disagree with anyone but if you took a poll, 95% of americans would guess definition 1. over definition 2.

I have a friend in the pest control business. He said you would not believe the ammount of people that will come to the door with a cigarette hanging out of there mouth when he gets there to spray for ants or something with a baby in there arms.

They ask him 'is that spray going to hurt my baby or my dog'. This is just one example of joe public's logic.

Now, I'm not a big fan of Sevin either. Bad for bees and other benificals. If i'm not mistaken, it was called Seven because it takes 7 days to break down or you are supposed to wait 7 days till harvest.

I would rather see someone use something that is 1 or 0 days to harvest IF they had a pest problem.

Here is a link that might be useful: rotenone

Maybe the lack of bees lately (nearly a crisis and on the news even) is from the bandwagon of organic gardeners using Rotenone....

Give'em hell Theresa! Don't leave! Thanks for standing up and being heard, I appreciate it.

digdirt wrote:

It is one thing to use an insecticide when one has a real-time pest problem. It is something else to
(1)freely use insecticides BEFORE a problem even exists..."

While this is a tomato growing forum, she may have other veggies too. On tomatoes, do you apply Serenade AFTER Stink Bugs have ruined the fruit? Do you apply Bug-B-Gon with Esfenvalerate, or Brand W with lambda-cyhalothrin after the Squash Vine Borer decimated your giant pumpkins? Do you spray your corn after you see corn earworms? Many insects do damage by sucking or chewing and carry diseases too, spraying after you see them can be too late.

There is a certain need for "preventative maintenance" sometimes. Some pest problems need to be prevented, not cured. And fungicides like Daconil need to be applied before disease is present to be most effective, and used regularly.

I personally don't use Sevin, but did buy some for my girlfriend's dog once, maybe 10 years ago. He's still alive.

Damn! I missed the organic bandwagon! I never sprayed Rotenone once in my life! Never even saw a bottle/bag/box whatever of it!

I am so sick of the chem luvin people using that tired old argument that this or that chem is less toxic than Rotenone. Who cares? Most of us tree huggers, whale savers and granola eaters spray nothing! LOL

Where's Organic Nut when we need him?!?

Goodness:). Well, this is interesting. Things do seem to be going in different directions, from the original caution about sevin and the environment
" Especially one as environmentally hazardous as Sevin which is well-documented as deadly to most all beneficial insect species? Not to mention the water contamination from run-off."
to;
"All the old folks around here have been using it for years and most folks around here live to be in their 80-90's go figure.THANKS"

Apples and oranges to me, but I really didn't see the condescension or any nastiness in the original response from Digdirt. Perhaps I just look at things differently.
BTW, I am also in Carolina, although SC rather than NC. I used to live in Florida, and keep hearing people compare the two areas, and I just don't see it. South Florida is much more humid, and the humidity is around for much more of the year. I see nowhere near the bug population that I faced gardening in Fl. I have my first garden here in SC, and have only had to use Safer's soap once, and only on my two eggplants, whose leaves had been totally eaten by flea beetles. Will I resort to sevin? No, but that is my choice, and need not be yours. I do admit that the idea of using malathion even in the general area of something I'm going to eat makes me cringe, but, again, to each his own.
I hope the discussion will continue, as I'm interested in "less toxic" (I won't say organic) methods of insect pest control. I do have Bt, but haven't seen (knocking madly on wood) any reason to use it.

Margo

That's right it's all Theresa's fault for asking a question and getting upset about getting a lecture. Digdirt could have started another thread and addressed the issues with Sevin that he brought up, but no, he had to hijack her thread and make it all about him.

Why can't people just answer a question? Most early on in the thread offered their suggestions, now it has become another round of "us vs. them." Good grief! Pathetic! As someone who uses very little in way of pesticide and insecticide and concentrates on cultural controls, I have to say I'm almost tempted to go out an buy a big bottle of Sevin just for the fun of it.

You want to discuss issues? Start your own thread and leave people asking simple questions out of it!

my grandfather bought Sevin in 20 pund bags when i was a kid. We dusted the dogs every 3-4 weeks, more often if it rained alot, to keep the fleas and ticks off them.

my point about the organics is that you guys see NO OTHER WAY. there is a time and place for eveyrthing. i agree that chemicals should be limited to use when necessary, but many people CAN'T go 100% organic. it just is not feasible. my garden is 100x100 right now and will be larger later this summer, not some little 25 sq ft patch on the back porch, and if i went full organic i could just turn it under and let the grass grow.

My area is almost exclusively agricultural, and chemicals are tried and proven to work, so i will continue to use them until something better comes along.

that being said, i did plant lots of sunflowers and other bug attreacting plants beside my garden this year. they seem to be working so far, as the bugs go to them and hav elargely left my veggies alone. the biggest problem i am fighting right now is that we have been invaded by japanese beetles this year. for those, sevin or malathion are the best response.

Find out what the exact problem is before acting. Then target some kind of method to deal with that problem.

Hi Feldon aka digdirt

jaliranchr - I didn't hijack anyone's thread. You saw the OP as a simple request for what pesticide to use and as a simple question that only required a simple answer.

That is not all the OP was about. Theresa (yes I was aware Theresa is female but the masculine pronoun "he" is normally used when one is trying to be neutral and polite) clearly stated that she is already using insecticides to prevent pests that might come around. That is what I took issue with and what I asked her if she was or was not open to a discussion about - the hazards of prophylactic insecticide use and about alternatives other than Sevin.

I asked because I did not want to go into a detailed discussion of the hazards of using insecticides in that manner unless she was interested and willing to listen. I know for a fact that many here are NOT interested in hearing about it and that the mere mention of chemical hazards sets them off. Sadly, some of the posts above readily prove that point. So by asking her permission to discuss it first I was trying to prevent yet another "kill all organic gardeners" thread/debate and a hijack of the thread.

It wasn't my original post that created the problem. Had Theresa simply replied that "yes, I am interested in more info" or no, I'm not interested thanks", I would have replied in kind - politely - or not, as she requested. And had you not followed her hostile post up with a personal attack on me I wouldn't have been obligated to respond at all - in any way.

As I have said before I am not a die-hard organic gardener. I have and still do use some chemicals throughout my 50 acres but only AFTER I have first identified the threat, researched and tried other alternatives, evaluated any environmental concerns, and read and followed the directions on the label.

Theresa apparently hadn't done any of those things, yet she posted she was already in the process of dusting her plants with Sevin just in case some pest came along and wondered what pesticides we all were using to do the same thing. I asked her to please reconsider her approach to potential pest problems.

It was Theresa's hostile response and your subsequent holier-than-thou personal attacks on me that caused all this and led to what you accuse me of - hijacking of the thread.

Okay, Feldon. My you are wordy! I'm sure you have already asked that I be banned from GW for having the audacity to challenge you. LOL!

The simple questions posed in the Original Post now have been unbelievably complicated largely by one or two people reading way too much into a couple of simple statements and questions and feeling compelled to defend their silliness at all costs.

Original Post:

"I was wondering what is the best thing to use for harmful insects."

That is not a question. That is a simple introductory statement to let the reader know that the writer is looking for "the best thing to use for harmful insects." We must assume the target insects are those harmful to the writer's tomatoes (see title of this forum).

"This year I am tring to prevent problems before they happen and have been using daconil and 5% Sevin dust."

Another simple statement providing information relative to actions the writer has already taken and reasons the writer has for having taken the actions. No question is posed here either. Just facts. And as most readers here know, Daconil is a fungicide and Sevin is an insecticide. Simple.

"I would like to be able to put something on to prevent unwanted pest while not harming or discouraging pollinators (if possible)."

Gosh, here we have more very simple information for the reader to digest. The writer obviously wants something adequate and appropriate for her contemplated purposes. Hey, she even says she wishes to use something that will not harm or discourage pollinators if possible. Those last two words are the only thing said so far that potentially might be interpreted as "controversial" to some of the more judgemental readers ... that the writer might value her tomatoes slightly higher than passing pollinators. But considering the rest of her words in the OP, I'd give her the benefit of the doubt and say she simply appended those two simple words to let us know she cares about the environment.

"Just wondering what the majority of ya'll use."

Okay, there's Theresa ONLY question ... what the majority of us use "to prevent unwanted pest while not harming or discouraging pollinators." Simple, huh?

I'm fortunate in that I never have much need for fungicides, and seldom have hordes of unwanted insect pests. Usually, my plants are able to outgrow anything temporarily bothersome, except one case of spotted wilt virus in 2006 that was confined to one plant that was quickly removed from the garden.

The worst bug infestation ever was 2005, with a plague of what I think were cucumber beatles (if there is such a thing ... elongated yellow flying bugs with black spots) that attacked my tomatoes after mauling my cukes. The beatle invasion was followed by a plague of whiteflies. That year, I set aside one Cherokee Purple plant that the bugs really seemed to like in particular and applied Sevin to that plant only. I found it helped to shake the other plants to run the flying insects over to the altar of sacrifice before applying the Sevin. I didn't eat the tomatoes off that plant either.

Most other years, the worst I have is hornworms and stinkbugs. The stinkbugs seem to favor my blackberry hedge and when I prune my tomatoes properly, I can usually spot the bugs and worms sufficiently to hand pick them. This isn't a problem for me since I am constantly looking for blossoms ready to emasculate or just treating my plants like gazing balls (yes, I'm obsessed).

Having said all that, I can still understand why some tomato growers want an effective chemical insecticide application considering the magnitude of their problems or the extent of their planted gardens, limited time, etc. In those cases, forum members should set aside personal agendas and simply provide the answers for which another member asks. In this case, it seems to me the question was basically "what insecticide do y'all use to prevent unwanted pest while not harming or discouraging pollinators?"

And hey ... notice the writer DID NOT specifically ask only for chemical solutions ... so that left open the opportunity to offer "organic" or "natural" pesticide suggestions.

Teresa, in closing, after reading this thread, I'm reminded why so many other former tomato board members would rather seek advice from county extension agents than come here and be subjected the offerings of certain self-appointed online experts and talking heads.

Don't know who Feldon is. Hortist mentioned that too? Maybe there is another "digdirt" named Feldon?

My name is Dave and I wouldn't ask for anyone to be banned. Don't even know how I'd go about asking.

As for "wordy" - that part is true. Wife says it comes from being an old retired country school teacher who has no one else to talk to most days but another old retired country school teacher. ;)

What subject did you teach, DigDirt?

Thanks for the ID, Hortist. It all makes sense now, doesn't it?

You are absolutely right. We should stick to answering questions using our knowledge and experience.

So Theresa, here's why I DON'T recommend using Sevin. Back in my chem days I just plain didn't know alot about growing anything. But growing things became a nice relaxing hobby and I learned more and more and more through books, websites and practical experience. But in those early years I'd spray whatever and whenever I'd see a problem. After spraying SEVIN one year for Japanese beetles my mugho pines became devastaed by spidermites. I lost them all. It was only years later that I discovered that spidermites become plagues of biblical proportions when SEVIN is used. There are many articles stating this and like I said I saw with me own eyes. It appears that SEVIN really does a lethal number on mite parasites/predators. I remember spraying the miticide KELTHANE in a frantic chase to save my garden. I gradually found out that pesticides are only quick fixes and not long term solutions. A garden in balance is the secret. Let's say you own a half acre. Let's say you have at least a few thousand leaves growing. You discover spidermites. You spray all your plants trying to spray under every single leaf because that's where the mites hangout. Guess what? You miss a single leaf and in about two weeks there are as many mites as before. They only take a week in hot weather to form a new generation. I know this because it happened to me.

So, to finally answer your question. I spray NOTHING. Green Lacewings do a great job at keeping down mite and other soft body insect populations. And they are non toxic...:)

Margo, I live in southeastern NC (Carolina Bay area) and it is very much like Florida. Lots of trees, vines and water. Matter of fact,I could take you on a car ride and show you at least 10 alligators. I saw a 15 footer the other day. Oh and by the way, I've lived here all my life and we have never had eagles and now we have a few nesting pairs. So there is hope. I know this has nothing to do with tomatoes but right now im sick of tomatoes! Happy memorial day to all.Even digdirt who thinks I'm hostile.I'm really a very nice person (maybe sometimes to sensitive)and I do care about the earth.Theresa

Ok

I dont use any pesticides or fungicides. I dont use herbicides in the area of the garden. I will spot spray poison ivy or basal cut apply someting to deal with that. Otherwise I use a hoe or hort vinegar.

I dont use trap crops either - they just tend to attract more of those into the area. There is research indicating that happens with SOME kinds of insects.

I let Umbelliferaea plants (carrot, Queen Anne's lace, fennel, dill, etc) go to flower. They are great nectaries for beneficals.

If I see hornworms I pick them off by hand.

I just tolerate worm damage (tomato fuitworm - Bt is not really that effective on them). Birds get some. God graces me with extra tomatoes so I can share.

I manage diseases by cultural means only. That takes some work and forethought but its worth it. My neighbor 3 houses up gets early blight bad every year and he sprays. I have more plants than he does but I do 3 simple things that make all the difference: I dont overhead water, I dont crowd and I mulch to prevent soil from splashing back during rain.

I still get some Early Blight and septoria but it is always a tolerable amount and indet grow out of it.

I also encourage that neighbor to grow corn (it keeps racoons busy in his garden). I trap and release animals.

Original Post:

"I was wondering what is the best thing to use for harmful insects."

That is not a question. That is a simple introductory statement to let the reader know that the writer is looking for "the best thing to use for harmful insects."

uh, i think 'what is the best thing to use for harmful insects' is pretty much a question.

jeez, its bad enough that some people here get all holier-than-thou about stuff, but add overly pedantic into the mix and its like its worse than the sum of its parts.

its a gardening forum for crying out loud. it shouldn't be this complicated. if someone has a question you think is too general to easily answer, don't answer it.

hoosiercherokee - I really liked your analysis of the original question - thanks for taking the time to write a reasonable reply!

lakeshorenc - I am a newbie gardener, and clicked onto this thread to see what some people use and why - certain topics just seem to touch a nerve, and people feel the need to vent...not just gardening forums, but plumbing boards, dogs (just try to ask about buying flea protection overseas vs in USA)..you name it! Also, I sympathize with you on the differences in regions - since I grew up in Southern CA, I didn't know what clay was until we lived in Dallas & in VA - thought everyone had "dirt" (yes, that great brown crumbly stuff) :)

Bottom line is BALANCE! Keep on posting and you will find good people with good answers!

So, back to the originial question - how about a short list of organic options and chemical options? There are SO MANY products out there, but what do you keep in your arsenal (or garden shed)? :)

Hortist said: "I let Umbelliferaea plants (carrot, Queen Anne's lace, fennel, dill, etc) go to flower. They are great nectaries for beneficals."

Ah... I'm glad to know that! I have bronze fennel growing in my backyard in odd places. Maybe that's why I have been fortunate lately. I heard sweet alyssum were good at attracting beneficials as well.

I keep neem oil, I keep K+neem as an insecticidal soap (this is a new product, not sure how it will work)..I keep plenty of tinfoil (for wrapping stems to prevet cutworms), I keep eggshells and epsom salts..cuz keping your soil in the right condition will help...empty tuna cans to fill with various liquids (I like to experiment) for slugs, earwigs and any other crawler, I have a home made garlic spray..bird seed cuz I love to see the birds come for the seed but grab alot of other things too. Flashlight and gloves to go hunting at night..this is not just for tomatoe...it's for everything..

In an effort to save a plant, I used a product once...even the dirt looks dead now..no worms..heck not even grubs..I hate them but at least it would show something could live..to me..my 1 or 2 little plants are not important enough to poison off beneficial things...
Just my opinion..but some areas are dominated by the harmful bugs because all the good ones were killed off or chased away..not by the little home gardener..but by large insecticidal use of years gone by..

I do not side either way..use or not use chemicals..I just know that when I used it...the bad bugs came back quickly..and I'm still waiting for the good ones!

Like I stated above it boils down to time constraints for many of us. My experience has been many of the organic means just control and don't eliminate the pests. If you have a few hours every day to check and administer the organic methods they will control the problem. If not then many of us has to consider other methods. Like I stated above I have used Sevin spray on a spot basis. I had ladybugs and other beneficial insects and worms all last year and do again this year. I practice prudent use but still will bring out the big guns when needed. I tried several different organic sprays and controls for a comparison last year and like I've stated found they control but don't eliminate so you have to respray every few days or the new hatches take over. So in the end each of us has to make decisions based on what works for us. It is the same with diseases, planting, fertilizing,ect. We all use what we have available to us and what works best for us. And no one method is right or necessarily always the best. I'm one that has to prove things so experiment and try different products and methods every year. I even weigh fruits if need be. But will never tell anyone their method is wrong. Just state what works or don't work for me. This is just my experience and opinion. Jay

What about diamataceous earth? Does eggshells do the same thing? Malorn, does wrapping the tin foil around the stems burn them at all? I have heard of neem oil - any specific brand? Thanks

If you go to the other place, the same pictures "dig dirt" posted here, were also posted there by "feldon". Feldon was banned here a year ago, and makes us all nostalgic for chickenman. Why? Mainly because "dig dirt" grew his very first tomato in his life last year, but wants to tell the rest of us how to grow ours! LOL

Bark,

Sorry ... I missed DigDirt's pictures posted here. Are they in another thread? If so, where? I'd be very interested in seeing what you refer to.

HC

I shouldn't respond, but this post is just too tempting.

Theresa - the organofascists have a lot of very good points, but when you hear that someone would rather sacrifice his/her garden before spraying Sevin, you know s/he is coming from a narrower range of possibilities.

I use light soap sprays, after I see bug problems; most seasons, this is all I use, but I live in Iowa (and bugs aren't as bad here, at least not for as long a portion of the year). When homemade soap spray doesn't work (either when really hot or when really tough bugs), and I'll maybe get raked over the coals for this, I use malathion. If you have a REALLY bad bug infestation (I've never had one this bad), with some bugs that are resistant to Sevin and others resistant to malathion, you can mix malathion and sevin (or buy a fruit tree spray, which often combines malathion, carbaryl [Sevin], and a fungicide).

I've researched these chemicals heavily, including the EPA's recent 300+ page report on Sevin (it will stay legal, thankfully) and the EPA's recent new fact sheet on malathion (its fate remains to be seen), as well as all of extoxnet's reports on these chemicals and what all the organofascist flamers are saying, as well, and I've concluded that these products are of acceptable safety when used cautiously, judiciously, and according to directions. This legitimately includes preventative spraying, though I choose not to do it until I see a pest.

Just my 2 cents. Good luck!

Organofascists? Sound like Feminazis. When did Rush Limbaugh join GardenWeb? Well Rush-- it seems to me that the OP wants to go squirrel huntin' with a cannon and is seeking advice from the similarly-minded.

smikes,

organofascists? What's up with that? And you are calling US flamers?

Go back and reread my post. Sure I would rather give up a few tomatoes one season if the alternative is spraying poisons with big WARNING labels on their bottles. But here's the beauty, a garden in balance NEVER loses a crop! That has been my experience. Spray for this and you get that. Spray that and this comes back. Dog chasing it's tail. Short term "fixes" that cause LONG term problems!

I can't believe you are advocating mixing Malathion and Sevin together and spraying as a preventative no less. Perhaps you've been sniffing too many Ortho fumes?

MAYPIN, you have figured it all out!!! We need to have two tomato sites one for liberals and one for conservatives!!It's sad when we can't share a little info about tomato gardening without getting political.The problem with most liberals is you seem to think the rest of us can't think for ourselves and we need you(the superior liberal) to rescue us. My family happens to run a hunting lodge (we have about 10,000 acre of hunting land in Bladen county NC)and I happen to like Rush and I do hunt squirrel, matter of fact my son has a squirrel hunting dog and I make the best squirrel and gravy ever!!So I guess that makes you so much better than me and my family doesn't it? You can go away after reading this with the satitfaction being so much more intellagent and suffocated than I. That's what makes you feel good about yourself isn't it? So please do it on my account. I REALLY don't give a s@#$. It does seem the organtics are NOT reading all the post. But they are so superior they don't need to. And bigdaddyj the sevins dust I bought looks very user friendly on the front it says in big letters ALSO FOR USE ON DOGS AND CATS FOR FLEA AND TICK CONTROL(which I already posted) the only warning is very small writing on the side. I have 20/20 and almost need glasses to read it.The warning basically says do not apply directly to water and don't let your pets or children around it UNTIL the dust has settled. Most novice gardners would see this bag and think its a very friendly product. Like I said in earlier post call the company that distributes it. I even gave you the number to call in an earlier post. Maybe you didn't happen to read that.

Ok guys I'll take any and all shots directed at me, Dave. Call me all the names you want to in spite of all my so-called "wordy" explanations. But I'm not going to take anymore of this Feldon stuff - who ever HE/SHE was or is.

I have never posted ANY pictures here - not in this thread or any other. I don't even have one of those cameras. There are other members with a name similar to digdirt so maybe they have posted some pictures but I haven't.

As to the so-called other place, I didn't even know it existed until someone told me about it on the thread about Carolyn. If you check my sign up date it was only last week when I joined so I could read the news on Carolyn. I have never posted or replied to anything there either.

I don't know what made hortist decide I was this Feldon and then post the claim that I was he for all to see and attack. I also don't know what I can do to convince folks I'm not him since so many of you seem determined to believe it and not me. I only registered here in March, my email was verified by GW, I have a bio posted here and my email is open for anyone to use and my ISP can apparently be tracked to our rural phone company in AR. Beyond that, believe what you want I guess.

To my knowledge I have not violated any of the rules or TOS that are supposedly enforced here. Several of you have but I leave that in the hands of the GW administration.

Despite the hastily created profile that appeared yesterday for Digdirt, I've been sure for a few weeks that it was Feldon30. Digdirt joined just three days later this year than Feldon30 joined last year when he announced he was a first-time gardener and became the self-appointed quintessential authority on the board, deferring only to Carolyn. Digdirt is frequenting the same boards Feldon30 did. And his writing style, easily identified because he is so verbose and condescending, matches (just as you claimed you recognized organic nut's writing style, Feldon).

Maupin, why the wrath directed at lakeshore? She asked a question. She was insulted by a well-known newbie gardener, with a new name, who repeatedly lost his cool with organic nut's stance against Daconil. Daconil's okay to him but not Sevin. We all draw our lines arbitrarily don't we? I don't care if people use either one, because it isn't my garden, nor my business. I only hope they use whatever they use responsibly.

I'm going to go looking for something to kill the creepy-crawlly feeling I have from this thread.

And his writing style, easily identified because he is so verbose and condescending, matches..

You want some examples of "condescending" writing? Here you go. Oh, and there is also some sarcasm included just in case you don't recognize that either!

Digdirt joined just three days later this year than Feldon30 joined last year...

Digdirt is frequenting the same boards Feldon30 did.

Oh, now there is some brilliant deductive reasoning!!

Gee! was it only 3 days later. I thought sure it was 11 days!! I like the Tomatoes and Vegetable Gardening Forum so it follows that I MUST be this Feldon. Sherlock Holmes would be so proud!

And, just so you know, dear jalirancher, this was the last straw for me. I just wrote to GW and asked that this entire thread be reviewed for violations of the TOS of ALL the participants, including me, and asked that my account be closed.

I'm going to go looking for something to kill the creepy-crawlly feeling I have from this forum and you and the rest of the holier-than-thou bunch here.

Dave, who finally figured out how to post a bio and did so 2 days ago in the hopes it would put an end to this.

LOL! Just learned how to post a bio and email, but you know all about linking cross posts and TOS and lecturing on them. How rich!

Maupin and Lakeshore - you are both onto something. While I don't catch him much, I like Rush, too. However, organofascists was one of my originals.

Bigdaddy - I respect your way of doing things; I simply think there are other ways. I've never mixed malathion and Sevin; however, the two active ingredients are routinely mixed in fruit tree sprays to kill a wider variety of insects. Therefore, I think there's some precedent to support this "advocacy."

And, Bigdaddy, I appreciate the "flame" you sent my way - ORTHO FUMES? You seem to embody what you claim I accused you of.

I would add that my use of the word "flamers" was not intended to be directed at anyone here, and I apologize for not making that clear. It was directed at many anti-pesticide websites (a simple google search will turn up dozens - probably more - of them instantly), which use selective (and often misrepresented) testing results and cases of gross misuse to damn an otherwise reliable and use-worthy chemical. I would advocate use of their information no more than I would advocate use of information from, say, Dow chemical or a pro-pesticide organization (of which there are some).

However, by utilizing an objective source like extoxnet, which is a collaboration of several reputable universities across the nation (such as Oregon State, Michigan State, and UC-Davis, if memory serves me correctly), clearly not pro-pesticide hacks, you find that the threat of many of these chemicals is trumped up by organizations such as the Pesticides Action Network, getipm.com (which, revealing its political agenda-driven nature, has an anti-war link), and nospray.org.

Again, I meant no offense to anyone, I support organic gardeners/farmers, but based on additional research, I have myself chosen not to go that route.

By way of definition, I guess I'll say that "organofascist" means (this definition is subject to refinement) "organic gardener, organic farmer, or organic advocate who believes and/or professes that non-organic, and or non-ipm, methods of farming/gardening should be illegal or should be otherwise considered wholly impermissible or wholly detrimental."

Happy gardening to all - including those pesky non-organic gardeners. Bigdaddy - I've got to get going now, only 10 more hours to sniff Ortho fumes today. :)

I love the term "organofascists"! How appropriate LOL. Notice how they love to call anything not certified organic a POISON, and use other extra extreme terminology for any pesticide, and even out and out lies to make their point. Last time I looked (2 minutes ago), Sevin doesn't have a WARNING label, it has a CAUTION label, the same as the organofascist chemicals do.

Smikes, thank you for your clarification.

barkeater, the term "organofascists" you lol I find offensive to those of us who have chosen a natural way to garden. I have no idea which WARNING or which CAUTION label is on a bag of Sevin. I don't own any. Maybe it's DACONIL that's the category II with the WARNING. I don't know. I was generalizing. I never said which label went with which pesticide. I don't have to worry about it because I don't use any. I just know that you can read which label is on which pesticide at many websites including extoxnet which is mentioned above. IMO there is NO need for a home gardener to use any of them when nature along with proper growing techniques provides it's own controls. My garden is absolute proof it is possible. If you are ever passing through Delaware please feel free to visit it. I promise you you will be amazed.

You know, as weird as this thread was getting with the whole "feldon" thing, it took a real turn to the offensive side when some people here try to bring politics in this, attacking liberals about an issue that has nothing to do with politics. Rush Limbaugh has nothing to do with gardening.

There are liberals on this forum that just might take offense to all this, especially when responding in kind might get them banned, even though it would be very easy and very tempting to do so.

I'm a liberal. Back in the 80's I was a conservative and might be one again, some day, if they ever get their act together. I'm not an organic gardener. I'm not an "organofascist." In fact, I and perhaps others here, probably, came from a certain liberal forum that has a regular gardening section where mention of gardenweb things come up from time to time. So please don't cast such a wide net. Using a dispute about pesticides to launch into an attack on liberals is low and divisive.

I just had to check back. :)

Barkeater - Thanks for the compliment. I thought of the same clarification (none of the small handful of pesticides I've used have had anything other than "CAUTION"); however, I could see the generalization Bigdaddy was making. You make an excellent point about organic pesticides. For example, there is no more acute toxicity to a synthetic pyrethroid than a natural pyrethrin, in and of themselves; I simply prefer the synthetic (when I need to resort to it, esp. with regard to lawn insects) because it has a better residual, allowing me to maintain a career, remodel my bathroom, play with my daughter, and otherwise live my life.

Bigdaddy - I realize you were making a generalization about warning/caution/danger labels. However, Barkeater makes possibly an unintended point in that, while pesticides are certainly toxic (they wouldn't work if they weren't), the acute toxicity of those pesticides available to homeowners rarely warrants worse than a CAUTION label (and only then a WARNING label), whereas other household products are far more acutely toxic and intended to be used in a way that could be considered even MORE indiscriminate than targeting specific ornamentals or lawn.

For example, I recently purchased a couple of gallons of Turtle Wax brand bug formula windshield washer fluid for the car. I noticed that the label contained the skull and crossbones, along with "DANGER - POISON." Now I'll give you a bone here - it may not be absorbed through the skin the same way an organophosphate insecticide is, but it's a lot more poisonous, yet I simply spray it and have my wipers knock it into the wind.

Assuming that you have no problem with a preference for clean windshields when highway safety is at issue, I assume you have no problem with this spraying. What do the washer fluid and yard applications have in common? They break down quickly, in an area mostly inaccessible to others (on the highway; under ground).

For what it's worth, in gallons of mixed product, I spray a hell of a lot more vehicle windshield washer than I do pesticide in a year. And that's ignoring all the other many, many household products used regularly and more poisonous than common insecticides. This is why harm is a weak argument.

As to being natural and environmentally friendly, I believe in that in many ways. However, landscaping plants are, by their nature, unnatural (i.e. I don't want my yard limited to prairie grass, cedar scrub trees, and Queen Anne's lace, all of which are native to these parts). Unnatural plants attract unnatural numbers of insects that would otherwise work with "the system." Therefore, I feel an unnatural control means is warranted. And outside of earthworms, which my pesticide use has proven not to significantly affect, beneficials (outside of bees - which I'm careful to watch out for) do me little good outside of taking out other insects. It's more efficient for me to spray them when they attack - and if the beneficials die with them, I'm still accomplishing my objective.

Doof -

My post was never intended to be political, except maybe addressing the divide between those of us willing to responsibly use synthetic pesticides and those of use who don't believe such a responsible use exists. Sounds like you're in the former group, along with me.

However, Maupin's response likening me to Rush (no offense taken, by the way) was the effective injection of liberal/conservative labels into this discussion. So it was a liberal who made it political, just to clarify. And I don't have a problem with that, either.

You are a responsible gardener who I think cares about this planet and what we all are doing to it. And you make valid points. I am only saying that natural works for me. I have tried both the chem way and the non chem way and there is absolutely no contest. I don't care how toxic pyrethrin is or rotenone is because I don't use any sprays! So those tired arguments that I have read a million times on GW are meaningless to me.

Let's both of us hope nobody is spraying your window washer stuff on their food crops! Or their Draino. To me the issue is first and foremost the food my family eats. I can control most of that so I do. I like life lol. I want it to last as long as possible. I don't necessarily believe all the studies claiming this or that as to long term toxicity results. I think there are dangers in eating foods grown with bugicides sprayed all over the plants. I don't want Malathion on my peppers or Diazinon on my onions. Research is finding out more and more about these chemicals as time goes on. I don't want to risk it. What they know now won't be what they may know a year from now. That pain pill Viox, it was a wonder drug. Now it's banned a few short years later. When I see CAUTIONS and WARNINGS on labels I may use them to polish my shoe but I won't be spraying it anywhere near the foods my family eats or where it can reach the water table.

That brings me to my second concern which is runoff into water tables. Each of us should be accountable. There are so many people who buy a plant. Blue fertilize and water it to death. See a bug or worse ANTICIPATE a bug or ANTICIPATE a disease and start spraying their plants like crazy people! Quick fixes chasing their tails round and round and it never ends. Guess what? It CAN end. I've done it. And it works just great...

Bigdaddy - Thanks for the reply. I respect your reasoning.

While I'm not now re-checking what I've read on groundwater issues (runoff, lakes, and streams are not an issue where my house is), it seems like certain herbicides were problematic while most insecticides had broken down (though I'm well aware that virtually all insecticides - esp. new pyrethroids - are harmful to aquatic life), esp. when the organophosphate insecticides were used in ground (e.g. diazinon, Dursban).

In any event, the only broadcast pesticide applications I do are insecticide and grub treatments on my lawn. For insecticide (due to an unusual lawn ant condition - I always wait till after the colonies develop, as I always hope I don't need to do it - wherein the colonies cause 2 areas of my back lawn to dry out due to their burrowing in such high numbers, and then they create hills), I use a pyrethroid, which bonds enough to the soil that studies have shown it to not be a groundwater contaminant. For grubs, either Merit (imidacloprid) or Mach2 (halofenozide) - both are very, very mild and not considered bad ground water contaminants.

I did use Sevin in the lawn once, due to needing a "rescue" treatment for grubs. Since then, I've held them in check.

On ornamentals/vegetables, last year I literally used about a quart (mixed, meaning about 1/4 tbs. concentrate) of malathion TOTAL in one app, and none went on the ground (i.e. one app. for the entire summer). The only reason I used it then was because it was so hot that the soap spray my wife and I mix on our own failed to work (we had earwigs bad on the ornamentals then, too). I'm glad the malathion was there when we needed it, however; though admittedly, I didn't much care for the "Ortho fumes." :)

I spot-spray weeds sometimes (never broadcast herbicide apps., though, thanks to success with my lawn as of late), and while I do use synthetic fertilizers on it, I avoid "weed 'n feed" type of herbicide/fert combos. I do believe the spot-spraying is good to avoid the situation where a broad-spray herbicide app. would be necessary.

I say this only so you know I'm not trying to spray this stuff indiscriminately. But I make up terms like "organofascists" because I truly believe some of the dangers are exaggerated a bit.

For what it's worth, I argue with my brother (currently an "organofascist" and environmental science major at the U of Oregon) about this stuff all the time. But, like with some people here, it irritates me when he tries to "prove" his point by citing me a bunch of ".orgs" and not objective studies.

Anyway, I've ranted enough on this one. Funny - I finally went back and re-read the original post. Even though the subject line requested a pesticide, turns out the post actually was open to an organic suggestion as well; I (maybe erroneously) fell under the impression, however, that there was sermonizing that accompanied the suggestions. I think that's what spiked the emotions.

Attention fellow gardeners: This is not a liberal forum that dabbles in gardening, or a gardening forum for liberals. It is a gardening forum, period. So how about don't drag politics into this in the first place, and then it won't become an issue.

Ok one more time defending myself. I didn't say this was a Liberal web site and I didn't bring the politics into this. The person who mentioned Rush in their post and me going out an killing poor little squirrels did.Going back to to my OP. I just want all of you to know that happily, I did (after a lot of nonsince)get my answer.I planted deeply, I have drip irragation,I put about 8" of mulch around my plants, my sweet husband made me CRW cages and I hope that all this will be enough to keep the insects and diseases away so I don't have to put a insecticide on my tomatoes.If I do I will start my defence with soap water and only resort to the sevins as a last resort. My hope is for the best tomato season yet and thanks to most of you I think this year may finally be it. In closing as the OP I ask, no I beg, that this will be the last post and we can put a stake in the heart of this beast and let it go. Theresa

If everyone was as conscientious/knowledgeable as you are while using the products you mentioned that you use then I wouldn't be even participiating in this discussion. I live in a toney neighborhood and see the Chemlawn type trucks in and out of here on a daily basis. I have many neighbors who when I go inside their garages it smells like the garden spray product aisle at Home Depot and man that's a NASTY smell. I see so many people here on this website that think Daconil is the greatest invention ever created and yes I have read it's label and there is a lot that concerns me about it and even though I live in hot and humid Delaware I manage to grow great loads of tomatoes without it.

What percentage of people do you think apply these pesticides (organic or non-organic) correctly as the labels indicate? Wear the protected clothes? Measure amounts closely? How many even think that what they are now spraying or applying to their yards and gardens may possibly runoff into the water table with the next hard rain? How many even care 2 cents? From what I see with my own eyes and in my own neighborhood the answer is VERY FEW IF ANY!

Anyway, nice chat smikes. The only reason I bother here is because maybe some people will discover the satisfaction and peace of mind of growing naturally like I have. Back in my chem days I listened to the "orgofascists" and I'm glad I did. I now have an excellent garden and and a clear conscience...

lakeshore, one thing, you might want to check that soap water on one plant just to make sure that the soap water does not damage the plant. It can, if some cases, cause a problem if the concentration is off. A little test, just like making sure your spot remover doesn't ruin a shirt, will save you some hassle.

Theresa - sorry for posting again. I wanted to respond one more time to Bigdaddy. You made a very good point on the politics, and you, like I consider myself, are also a sensible person who won't go indiscriminately spraying pesticides. I think it's very legitimate to want to know what pesticide works when it's needed.

On the soapy water - we use this recipe: CONCENTRATE = one cup soapy water + one cup cooking oil (ajax grapefruit scent is VERY pleasant for the soap). THEN, mix 2 tsp. of this concentrate into one cup water and spray carefully. The oil makes it last longer (and also aids in its insecticidal capability), and it also makes for nice shiny leaves. We've never had a plant's leaves damaged by it (though we damaged our honeysuckle blossoms a bit this season).

Bigdaddy - I really appreciate your input here - much more now than I may have thought initially.

I understand where you're coming from. While, unfortunately, in my neighborhood, people either don't care about their yards or have TruGreen doing the spraying (have "don't care" to my west and "TruGreen" to my east - they almost killed part of my lawn this spring, but I resuscitated it), I remember growing up next to neighbors who frequently "guessed" when mixing things, even as dangerous as diazinon (something I admit I wish was still available to me). I suppose it's that crowd that cost the rest of us the freedom to use what are now restricted use pesticides, and it's unfortunate that such people gave the government a reason to push the restriction.

At the same time, my dad (while not being very good about protective equipment, something I now take seriously and have gotten him to take more seriously) always taught me to read labels completely (back then they weren't as complete as they are now, but that's a different story), to mix outside only, and to clean up afterward (yes, it may be disturbing that I helped to spray dandelions as a child, but it was probably a pretty good learning experience, looking back).

I also have appreciated this chat the last couple of days. And as an aside, I got a tool that helped to perfect my ability to dig wild violets without damaging my lawn, and my wife just schooled me on it this morning (Fiskars makes it - avail. at Target - looks like a cross between a dagger and a garden trowel). Not going organic, and not faulting people here for using pesticides (I think most who care enough to come here probably use them responsibly), but I do believe in avoiding their use where possible. (If my neighbor took care of his yard, I'd probably be able to avoid spraying dandelions - and using herbicides - entirely, but that's a different story).

As for bugs, well, I didn't put in $1000 worth of new landscaping just to be their food, even if that means one or two chemical apps. in a summer. I know that may sound crass, but I've got to sell this house sometime.

Happy gardening.

Kubota - excellent point. An unfortunate aspect of about everything is that, where there's controversy, it can become political.

And I promise - this is my last post in this thread. Theresa - thanks for posting it; it was fun (at least for me).

to rfbcville: in response to your question about the tinfoil burning the stems...it hasn't so far..

about the neem oil: I bought a brand by Organica (google it) from my garden shop and I bought a soap, not the true oil. I discovered the benefits of neem on the Garden Clinic forum..it is widely recommended and over there.