Yes, some sort of drainage holes are always needed - low on the sides and in bottom. The hanging baskets have them they just aren't as obvious. ;)

Dave

catman - never hurts to re-iterate the crucial point. Saves a lot of grief later in the season for those new to 5 gallon growing and who are picturing this big beautiful productive tomato plant like they see in pictures and TV ads. Besides it is more polite than saying what I'd really like to say about using 5 gallon buckets for tomatoes. ;)

hahaha...Dave: Come on, say it! ;-)

That is good to know up front Dave. As a beginner I know I have lots to learn and it's nice to not have to learn everything the HARD way!!

We all learn some lessons the hard way, unfortunately....aphids *shiver* Did it just get cold out here? brrr....Yes, i'm surfing from my porch where my garden is. =)

Some of my 5-7gal container tomato plants from last year.

Here is a link that might be useful: 5-7 gal. container tomato plants

Meisenbacher, those are huge! I guess there is some support in the back that cannot be seen?

As far as holes - I was advised on another forum to use a paddle bit as it produces larger holes.

Thanks for the warning that Neves and Ramapo will grow so big - how do Cherry 100 and Black cherry compare in size? Those are my other options for the bucket.

ellen

ellenr

Paddlebits do make larger holes, but enough drainage with large or small holes is enough drainage! IOW, no need to buy a paddlebit if you don't have one. Four to six smaller holes will be fine. Larger holes usually require some sort of screen to prevent soil loss anyway.

Black cherries grow 6 to 10 feet tall. Not sure which cherry you mean by "Cherry 100", but I suspect all of them with "100" in the name grow long long vines, too. When you're sure about the name, search here for particulars on that variety. Keep in mind that all the information is a range, since you just can't be specific about tomatoes!

So far, my Black Cherry plants are the tallest, with Caspian Pink also about the same height. And the BC's are a few weeks younger than the CP which are the same height. I think BC will be my tallest variety this year. I'm expecting over 10 feet from them (and they're all in the ground BTW)

OK I'm new at growing in 5 gallon bucket. The one I have is a SWC that I made out of just stuff lying around. My question is WHY won't a tomato plant do as well in a 5 gallon bucket as one grown in the ground? If the plant in the bucket gets all the water and nutrients it needs shouldn't it do just as well as the one in the ground? I planted one cherry tomato, variety unknown but it is an indeterminate, in the bucket and one in the ground and so far the bucket one is taller and setting fruit all ready and the one in the garden is just starting to bloom. I know this isn't a very good test, as I'm sure the soil was warmer sooner in the bucket than the garden one, but I hope I haven't waisted two 5 gallon buckets making a SWC. Thanks for any replies

vmckague

Here's what research has shown. The report begins with the effect of restricting root growth right after germination and then root restriction in containers: Plant development can be influenced by container size and increased or prolonged root restriction. The flowering period was reduced due to increased root restriction in tomatoes (Peterson et al., 1991a). As rooting volume increased, the time from sowing to anthesis [plant-death?) was shortened for tomato (Kemble et al., 1994, Ruff et al., 1987) and salvia (van Iersel, 1997). Also, a delay in fruit maturation was shown for root restricted tomatoes (Ruff et al., 1987).

....yields were increased in tomato (Weston and Zandstra, 1986), cauliflower (Csizinszky and Schuster, 1988), cabbage (Marsh and Paul, 1988), watermelon (Liu and Latimer, 1995), and bell pepper (Weston, 1988) as transplant container size increased.

So the lesson is that large tomato plants with large root systems don't do as well in 5-gallon containers as they would in larger ones, though this doesn't mean you won't get some tomatoes! I have nine self-waterers that are five galloners and I use them for a multitude of plants, just not indeterminate tomatoes anymore.

WHY won't a tomato plant do as well in a 5 gallon bucket as one grown in the ground?

Yep, anney's info covers it - root restriction. The roots are the life of the plant. An indeterminate variety plant will quickly become rootbound in a 5 gallon bucket. As anney mentioned above in her first post on this thread - pull it out of the bucket and you'll find no dirt remaining - just a mass of encircled roots. Shoot! ind. varieties will even become rootbound in a 10 gallon container - it just takes it a lot longer for it to happen.

Encircled roots have no soil, no nutrients or water to feed off of except for those that may or may not be supplied by the gardener multiple times a day. That equals a stressed plant which is then more prone to pests and disease and which actively reduces it's growth and production of fruit in an effort to survive.

We transplant rootbound seedlings into larger cups or cell packs yet we expect a 6' tall+ full grown plant to thrive for months in a 5 gallon bucket?

Those who insist that it is easy or is the only way to go simply have no basis for comparison. Look at all the photos posted here on Ray's 31 gallon Earthtainer plants and Frank's (bingster) plants or atacosta's big rubbermaid containers plants. It is obvious that there is no comparison.

Can it be done? Sure with lots of extra work and care and realistic expectations. Is it better than not growing tomatoes at all? Most definitely! Does it work better with determinates vs. indeterminates? Definitely. Is it easier in certain climates that in others? Definitely.

But should it be done? Not intentionally IMO unless there simply is no other option available.

You asked about compared to an in-ground plant - nothing restricts the roots in the ground. They are free to roam as needed. ;)

Dave ~ jumping off his soapbox on 5 gallon buckets.

PS: and yes, just like anney, I have done it so I know the differences first hand.

Dave,

Clap! Clap! (I love passionate soapbox speeches!)

I have to make a correction of something I added as a guess to my post just above yours. As rooting volume increased, the time from sowing to anthesis [plant-death?) was shortened for tomato...

Anthesis is flowering, blossoming, not plant-death. So plants that are root-constricted bloom earlier than those that aren't. Some may like this, some may not, but it's a condition of being root-bound, something you can anticipate if you start your seeds too soon and they become root-bound!

And who said plants grown in 5-gal containers would out perform plants grown in larger containers? Check out Timmy1's tomato grow outs and what size containers he is using? The subject of this thread is "growing in a 5-gal bucket. Timmy1's setup proves as long as you have adequate irrigation and fertigation, container size and root restrictions are non players. Reason, the plant is getting all the nutrients and water needed so the root structure has no reason to get as large as one which is not getting adequate moisture or nutrition.
And the grow boxes and earthtainers get one strip of fertilizer to last them the whole season so naturally the root mass will be larger.
The way I grow plants in my containers I have found my plants have no problems and root restriction has not been a player. But any size smaller, roots will grow through the drain holes and into the soil.
Can tomatoes be grown in 5-gal containers, certainly. Will everybody have the same results as I do, no. Is it the end of the world if somebody grows tomato plants in a 5-gal bucket, no. A lot of people just don't have the coin to invest in large containers and 5-gal containers are readily available and most times for free. And the amount of soiless mix required to fill them is substantially less than 18-36 gal-totes.
Maybe next time I'll post some pictures of Ludmilla's Red Plum and Kellogs West Virgina which had 50+ fruit on each plant! And yes they were grown in 5-gal containers. Tom's Yellow Wonder or Stump of the World both indeterminates that topped out at 10 feet and were grown in 7-gal containers.
Dave, tell you a secret. Only reason I post those photo's is to see your reaction. Just teasing and don't take it seriously. Amideutch

Doing it on the other side of the pond.

Where can I find pictures of Timmy1's grow outs??? To me a picture is worth a thousand words. Thanks guys for the trouble answering my questions. I really liked the research info and like anything I guess, some say yes and some say no. Go figure.

Hi vmckague,
Look at the 10th May freemangreens' post "Chinese grow bag" & you can see timmy1's picture posted showing he has 2 tomatoes in each bucket ....

gringojay

FWIW, timmy's pictures show two tomato plants growing in ProMix bags of soil, not in buckets. Those bags of ProMix loose fill are 3 cubic feet each, enough to fill roughly three 5-gallon buckets.

I really shouldn't rely on my poor top-of-the-head arithmetic skills.

Three cubic feet of soil equals about 22 gallons of soil or a little more than enough to fill four 5-gallon buckets. timmy's soil bags give each tomato plant approximately 11 gallons of soil, pretty good root-room comparatively-speaking.

Ellen, you got the NAR and black cherry seeds from me. They came from plants that grew in one bushel (8 gallon) laundry baskets lined with cardboard. And I get a bountiful harvest. Yes, it can be done.

I've heard that Black Krim is supposed to be a good container tomato. I have one growing in a 5-gallon bucket SWC.

Is this a good container tomato?

Photo is a week or two old. It's bigger as the plant is starting to take off now.

I know I am beating a dead horse here but please also note that Timmy's set-up works for him because he is growing in a controlled environment in greenhouse tunnels and is pruning to 1-2 stems and is using an automated drip watering and fertigation system set-up on each plant. He has provided details on this set-up in the past here.

If you find that his extensive plant system set-up is similar to how you would be growing your tomatoes in either 5 gallon buckets or in bags of soil then by all means - go for it. ;)

Dave

The character of this discussion was anticipated by the Beatles many years ago.

haha...good one, Dave...you forgot to add, "If you have the funds available to set up an insanely cool system like Timmy, then go for it." =)

Guess I just never talked myself into the mindset that growing in a smaller container was so difficult. I've been doing it for years with great success. They are exposed to all the aridity and wind and hailstorms our climate throw at them and they do just fine for the most part. Yes, the last couple of seasons, I've had a drip system, because my mater patch has grown considerably over the years. But I just don't stress it that much and add some tomato tone when planting and once a month, thereafter. It really isn't that intensive unless you make it so. There will be over forty baskets this year. I have a few earthboxes that have lasted a few years and I don't stress them either. shrug. When I started, nobody told me I couldn't or shouldn't do it because (fill in the blank). It has worked very well for me for a long time.

Dave, as many times as you have beat that dead horse there's nothing left to beat. Maybe some more pictures are in order.:)

Root Development in Tomatoes, published in 1927, is still the best research done on tomato and other vegetable rooting habits.

Enjoy!

Of course I must chime in. 5 gallon containers may be considered the minimum of unassisted tomato growing with larger containers being better. By unassisted that is using top soil and otherwise trying to grow as they do in ground, in a container. As I stated, why given lots of space and sun would one purposely constrict themselves?
For me I prefer going a step smaller because of many combined factors. My space and light is ok but not unlimited. It about 200 square feet maximum which includes walking space. I also live in a 5a thus my watering is not as much of an issue. I have yet to water at all this year. I have rain and its cool. Also, I do have a potting mix in self watering containers as well as irrigation available. This is an important thing for urban gardening. One can easily double their effective space and there is the advantage on more precision, management and less weeding or mulching.
One point I do like to make is I care very little how each individual plant does. What I want is output per square foot, not by plant.
It is in a way more interesting since I tend to manage my space much more than when I was a huge lot growing up. Using a little smarts can double the effective space.Its cheaper than property tax.

The main reason I am trying to grow in 5 gallon buckets and other SWC ,30 gallon totes, is I have lived in the same house for over 20 years with one small 25' x 15' tomato patch. I had no way to grow anywhere else and now the ground has so many diseases in it I can't grow a tomato worth 2 cents. The soil checks out just fine with plenty of organic matter but it is just shot. Last fall when I pulled my tomato plants up the root ball wasn't much bigger than a volley ball. Root nematodes and I don't know what else had the roots so contorted and stunted it almost looked funny. But it wasn't. So using SWC is my last option. I go along with the idea that a 5 gallon bucket is about the limit for a tomato as I use to grow bananas in 5 gallon buckets and after they were root bound they just failed to thrive. Thanks for all the help and good links to articles.

Hi anney,
Post "Timmy1 Pics" of May 4, by timmy1, shows 2 tomato seedlings in each black pot, which I just assumed are +/- 5 gallons .
Mr. timmy1's picture posted on to "Chinese Grow Bag" kidding Mr. freemangreens, a hydroponic specialist, shows 2 tomato stems in a black pot (which I assumed were his standard grow pot) located behind timmy's grow bag.
Either that, or I am using a dead Beatles' psychedelic glasses.
That said, I want you to know I find your posts of interest & like to read what you are discussing.

gringojay

Ah, I see. When you mentioned the "May 10 Chinese Grow Bag" in your prior post, I went only to this post and couldn't see a pot behind the bags. Something's there, but I can't tell what it is or if those tomato stems are waiting for Timmy to put them in their permanent homes. Maybe I need those psychedelic glasses myself!

I enjoy your posts, too!

Well, Ami, here we go again with some of those useless 80 year old "studies". I don't think old studies carry much weight in today's totally changed environment. I don't know how they were conducted back then and don't trust that the container stats were maximized fairly. Most of those studies were actually a thesis or term paper by some college student trying to please a non-gardener, or were paid for by someone who wanted biased reporting.

While I respect Dave's gardening and we have agreed on many things over the months, I don't think he has fully developed 5 gallon bucket farming.

Dave and Anney, there are ways of doing containers that get enhanced root systems. Ami gets better results than I do, and mine are now comparable to in-ground systems. Besides, it's like Ami said. The root system will stop expanding when the plant senses that all of its needs are being met. Maybe it's time for a change of your paradigms. It's 2009 and old standards may not still be as valid as they were last year.

And finally, I never did like anything the Beatles ever did. And I'm sure I don't know what they have to do with growing tomatoes.

And that brings me to what I disagree with most here, and that is that ellenr asked if she could grow tomatoes in a 5 gallon bucket and several folks seem to want to make rocket science out of it.

So, ellenr, if you want to grow those tomatoes in 5 gallon buckets, I can tell you that I have both of those varieties growing in my buckets right now. I expect to get at least 10 pounds of tomatoes from each plant. If that's cool for you, then put them puppies in the buckets and try to feed and water them adequately. If you have any other questions I can help with, Email me.

Do that and I'll send you some pictures of my plants and tell you how to enhance the root systems.

Now, the rest of you folks have a nice day.

Ted

Interesting topic. I've had a lot of luck growing pepper plants in 5 gallon buckets. this year I've got two grape tomato plants in buckets. The only thing I have to add is I drill several 1/4 inch holes near the bottom for drainage then have 1/4 inch dowel rods ready to stick in the holes when it's hot. During the spring rains I can remove them for drainage, During the heat of summer I can hold the water in. I also like old ice chests with lid removed. Open the drain if it needs it, snap it shut when dry.

containerted

You didn't read that link, did you? Why would you challenge a study regardless of when it was done that measured root-spreads? Did they use a four-foot yardstick or something? It was what it was, and all it did was show how tomato roots develop. Jeez...

People will never agree on this issue, so everybody can do whatever the dickens they want. Plant yer tomaters in thimbles if you want!

I don't think he has fully developed 5 gallon bucket farming.

Naw, Ted, I moved on to 10 gallon bucket farming back at the turn of the century. :^)

Did they use a four-foot yardstick or something?

Good one Anney!! ;)

Dave

Now what do these tomatoes have in common with the Beatles?

Timmy

Great looking maters! I reckon I don't need my Beatles' psychedelic glasses to see the containers those are in! I hope my New Big Dwarfs in 5 gallon SWBs are as fat and red! They'll have a tougher time being outside than yours, though!

How do you water them? I don't see an overhead watering system or a drip system, but then these things don't always show up.

ellenr, I think timmy1 has provided the answer you were looking for. Beatles and 80 year old studies - hogwash. If you didn't participate in the study, then you don't really know who did what with which to whom. It's only barely useable as comparative data. Todays soil conditions and plant nutrients added to our gardens make those old studies OLD NEWS.

Tell me, Anney, just how many environmental factors between that study and ellenr's situation matched up exactly???

Dave, no offense. I'm moving on to 18 gallon tubs and SWC's myself. But I still do a lot of 5 gallon buckets - like the Brandy Boy, Black & Red Boar, Ramapo, and Neves Azorean Red that are outside right now.

timmy1 - good looking tomato ranch you got there. If I had the acreage, I'd try to give you some competition.

Ted

Timmy: Nothing, but you should FedEx me some! ;)

We started out 'matering with one plant in a bucket on our porch. They did alright, but blew over a few times and often needed an umbrella for shade. About the only thing I did different from what I see here was I put a large tub beneath the bucket which held a couple gallons water. I'd let the top of the bucket dry out but keep the bottom filled daily. I guess it's like the SWC/earthtainer, but very rudimentary.

-Ed

Anney and Dave, I havn't seen any pictures of your container grow outs, why is that? Anney, is that the best you could do after Timmy's post? The topic of this thread was growing in a 5-gal bucket. Not, what is the best size container to grow in! And there are a whole group of new amendments on the market today to improve the growth and disease resistance of our container grown crops, organic and inorganic.
Anybody here use mycorrhizae, Actinovate, molasses, yucca extract to name a few. I do and I attribute my success from the use of these products besides the organic ferts I use as well. Timmy1 does it with inoranic ferts, PH and nutrient level control in a controlled environment. These type of products and growing methods weren't around in 1929!!
So you soapbox yakkers that are not presently growing tomatoes in 5-gal containers please sit down and let the folks that are try to help answer the questions presented. If the question is "What size container is the best to grow tomatoes in", please jump right in. Ami

Posted by anney Georgia 8 (My Page) on Sun, May 10, 09 at 13:43

Dave,
Clap! Clap! (I love passionate soapbox speeches!)

I have to make a correction of something I added as a guess to my post just above yours.

As rooting volume increased, the time from sowing to anthesis [plant-death?) was shortened for tomato...

Anthesis is flowering, blossoming, not plant-death. So plants that are root-constricted bloom earlier than those that aren't. Some may like this, some may not, but it's a condition of being root-bound, something you can anticipate if you start your seeds too soon and they become root-bound!

..............

That's even better yet--less waiting...especially desired in colder climates or short seasons. That means ripe fruit sooner. This is a fact. And no reduction in size if you feed them properly.

miesenbacher
I havn't seen any pictures of your container grow outs, why is that?

I guess you haven't noticed. Do you think I haven't done it? I have a veritable container garden on my deck of five-gallon SWCs that includes tomatoes. These are the two New Big Dwarfs I'm growing this year soon after being set out:

{{gwi:55888}}

Red Robin last year:

{{gwi:63495}}

Celebrity last year:

{{gwi:63496}}

Planted Rutgers determinates in 5 gallon SWCs two years ago.

Three years ago planted four determinates in 5 gallon SWCs.

Four years ago, planted at least four, maybe six, full-sized indeterminates in same 5-gallon SWCs. Very unhappy with them. For those plant-roots, the container size was too much like Chinese foot-binding. The topic of this thread was growing in a 5-gal bucket. Not, what is the best size container to grow in!

Well, no, not exactly.

Here was the question: My question is - should I do it in 2 steps - ie - move it into a medium size container, and then when it is bigger into the bucket?

I have read that plants should not be in a container that is too big, don't know if that applies in this case.

So this long thread progressed from there, including a discussion of container sizes for various tomato plant-sizes.

I'll say it again. I grow determinates in five-gallon containers, just not indeterminates, which don't do as well as in the open earth. But people can grow tomatoes in anything they want -- they may not HAVE any open earth for indeterminates so choose to grow them in five gallon containers. In those circumstances, I'd grow them in containers, too, though I'd find a larger container than a five-galloner for most indeterminates to support the massive root system of a large mature plant.

I dont wan't to get into an argument with anyone but this year i'm trying 5gal SWB and i have quite a few plants in the ground too, both have a variety of det , ind, late and early season varieties. So far the container toms look bigger and healthier than the ones in the ground( not that the ones in the ground look bad).
On the point of toms in 5 gal buckets being forced to flower earlier at least in this case it's completely not true. Most of my bucket toms still only have buds while 90% of the in-ground ones are blooming profusely.

AT

No real argument, just people defending their tomato-growing techniques. In the long view, it's kind of funny, like the bridge-player who threatened to shoot his wife because he didn't like the card she played in a bridge-round! Or fighting about which movie is best.

But more seriously... Apparently it's only root-bound plants that flower early so your container plants are probably not root-bound.

I think that explains why one of the seedlings I left too long in its potted up container bloomed so early, practically the day I set it in the ground. I even made a post asking how tomatoes were triggered to blossom in the first place. Nobody mentioned root-binding, but I'll bet that's why!

My container tomatoes also have unopened blossoms as of yesterday while the ones set out in the garden all have open blooms. But there isn't much difference in their beginning bloom time, a couple of days, except with that one plant, a Cuostralee. And my deck gets a couple of hours less sun than in the garden, which is sunny all day -- I think the plants grow slower with less direct sunlight.

Too many people succeed growing tomatoes in smaller containers for it to be dismissed as a fluke and deemed completely experimental or downright foolishness. But we get into this EVERY single time this topic is brought up. Anyone who asks, is given a myriad of reasons why it won't work. Those who do it show evidence of it being done. Qualifiers are then attached to the circumstances that one can do it. pfftttt. It is very obvious at this point that many people grow tomatoes in all kinds of growing conditions and they grow both determinates and indeterminates with success in small containers. This seems to upset the tomato-world-order-viewpoint of some and you have to scratch your head at the stubborn dogma of it all.

Here's a link to another thread where Mark Korney describes his container growing setup.

Here is a link that might be useful: GardenWeb

Anney - I have a big beef plant in a 5 gallon swb at my workplace, and this is my first time trying to grow in a container this small. I intend to incorporate some fertilizer to the growing media when the first fruit has set, but really don't know how frequently to re-apply. I'll be using 8-8-8, some dolomitic lime, and epsom salt.

To all other posters, this should be a resourceful thread - not a rock throwing contest.

EG

But more seriously... Apparently it's only root-bound plants that flower early so your container plants are probably not root-bound.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hogwash!! A root bound plant that's also stunted might flower early, but that's not a rule of thumb. Lots of varieties are bred to flower and fruit early.

Anney, you're south of me in zone 8. How come I've already had my first tomato harvested and have 30 other varieties with fruit set, 40 more with blooms, and even a couple of peppers with little peppers growing fatter, and you're still waiting for blooms to open? I thought you knew how to get the most out of those buckets.

Well, be sure to ask any questions you might have about good root systems and how to extend the growing season. I'll try to find you a study that can help.

BTW, I don't have a greenhouse of any kind and no room for a coldframe. The secret to early fruit is not in studies, it's in producing robust healthy plants that have all the nutrients they need.

Now, y'all children play nice.

Ted

I would like to thank ALL the individuals that participated in this enlightening discussion on the benefits of growing in 5-gallon containers. It was a hoot. Ami

lol...deffinitely a hoot. =) My current two cents. Anney seems to be right on in a lot of her posts on this thread. My Cherry toms are 2 & 1/2 to 3 ft tall and currently each have one soon to open bud cluster and one new bud cluster. They are gonna be enourmous. Of course, given my current growing plan for them, they can grow to be about 10 feet tall/long if they want.

Rgearding container size, most of my tomatoes are in the usual 1 & 1/4 cubic foot buckets. (see first pic below). According to an online wiki, 1 cubic foot = 7.48051945 US gallons. So, I guess I have my San Marzano Organic tomatoes and my Early Girl tomatoes in 10 gallon pots. My Cherry tomatoes are in hanging baskets probably equivalent to about 7-8 gallons. (second pic) Both are doing quite well.

{{gwi:32989}}

Peace - Steve

P.S. - Timmy: How bout the FedEx'ing me some of them maters?!?!?!? :):):):):)

Last year I grew a black cherry tomato in a 3 gallon pot. It had no blight or stress at all and was 6 feet high with two vines.So anyone who tells me it can't be done or will look sickly etc is not going to convince me that I had a dream. The year before it was considered madness to have Romas 12" apart in 6" deep soil. I looked around and that was actually a standard that went something like 12" by 15" row in many areas. What is the soil? How are you watering? 10 gallons of what? The 3 gal was 1/3 1/3 1/3 peat, vermiculite and compost and some organic fertilizer.

Is that my recommendation to do this and nothing else? No.the point is tomatoes don't need dirt. They need sunlight water and nutrients.

The hydroponic fogging convinced me. My special soil mixes and drip irrigation is barn yard low tech.

The more dirt one has the less labor intensive this is.

The lesson learned is if space is more important than other factors do the trade off. If grow and forget is more of the desire, go bigger. Its not like it was difficult, I just needed a good soil mix and watered more often. I do live in a 5a so I don't really have the same issues in southern zones of huge plants and watering 3 times a day. Its better to know where you are and who you are than a volume of unspecified growing medium for the best results.