Bob

I had one out of nine germinate (just today after a month!) but I got the seeds in an exchange so don't know how old they were.

I'll be coddling this one like it's treasure and plan to take at least one cutting so I can have a back-up plant. I trust that newer seeds that I can save will germinate better.

All I can suggest is that you leave them where they are, keep them moist, give them warmth and light, and see if any more germinate. Very frustrating, isn't it?

My NARX took almost 4 weeks to germinate, so be patient. Red Robin also has this issue (for me).

Raybo

Good Grief!!!!

Bob, I'm the person who introduced Neves Azorean Red and I've never ever had germination problems and nor have any of my tomato friends had problems with them. I should say that my seeds are not purchased or traded seeds, just my own saved seeds.

What was the source of your seeds?

Anney, 1/9 seeds troubles me as well b'c if even from traded seeds that were about 5 yo I would expect at least 50% germination.

Ray, what, pray tell is NARX? And what was the source of your seeds. A month to germinate is not something I understand when routinely I and most others have them up in a week or less.

Carolyn, truly puzzled

Carolyn

The one that germinated today was from the second batch of three that I planted and just let percolate after I mostly gave up hope. Now I'm hoping something might happen with the last three I sowed. In my case, I suspect the age of the NAR seeds IS the culprit, along with some pepper seeds that didn't germinate very well either. The rest of my tomato germinations were really vigorous and 80-100% successful.

If I can collect seeds from these NAR fruits, I trust they'll be viable next year. IOW, I'm not upset but am VERY glad that one germinated and am hopeful that maybe some more in the last batch will.

I received some Neves on a trade. They all germiniated.
1 is doing beautiful. The other 3 have little stems with
the seed on top. It's taking them awhile to develop
leaves. Don't know if they are going to be okay. They
did take longer to germinate then my other tomatoes.

Bob, I've got the same results with NAR, and also with Chapman. I Don't know what it is. My other varieties germinated as expected. Jubilee, (Martha Stewart seeds from K-Mart) caught me off guard as I wasn't checking that tray and all 10 seeds sprouted in just 48 hours. It's too bad I'm not a big fan of Jubilee. Anyway, I have tried heat mat, no heat, saran wrap punctured for air randomly, or poked like Swiss cheese.

I had trouble as well?
Only 1 out of 7 germinated.
Seed sourse was TGS and they were planted a week after I recieved them.
All the other varieties started in the same set were 80 - 100% germination and some of those seeds were from last year.
What do we do next season, try them again or order new?

Tim

Almost rofl with the NARX variety.;)

I really don't wish to puzzle Carolyn further but we are haveing the same issue, from seeds harvested last season.

These originated from a very reputable source:), the seeds I received so gratefully grew out as fabulous plants. No issue germinating, I did 'nt even need to oversow. Thank You again Carolyn.

I am wondering if the NAR seeds need very careful harvesting and fermenting. Perhaps they need storeing in a different way than I did.
In coin envelopes, inside plastic bags, into the fridge.

For windclimber and Tim

These originated from a very reputable source:), the seeds I received so gratefully grew out as fabulous plants. No issue germinating, I did 'nt even need to oversow. Thank You again Carolyn.

*****

Well that certainly tells me where you got your initial seeds from. LOL And glad there was no issue with germination despite my suggestion to oversow b'c they weren't exactly fresh seeds, which proves the point I was making above. ( smile)

(I am wondering if the NAR seeds need very careful harvesting and fermenting. Perhaps they need storeing in a different way than I did.)

I treat harvesting and fermentation the same for all the seeds I process. Long ago I ran out of vials so I just store seeds in regular size white envelopes, no fridge, no nothing, and at ambient room temperature.

Tim, I don't know what to say about your NAR from TGS b'c they're one of the few places that actually does germination tests. My remaiang NAR seeds are really too old to send out to others now, but you might consider getting new ones from Sandhill Preservation where no tomato seed sold is over 2 yo which is really quite remarkable. I was the source of NAR to Sandhill.

And no harm in trying the NAR seed you have next year again, just to see if the seed is playing games with you b'c that sometimes happens.

Carolyn

Carolyn,

The "NARX" I referred to is shorthand for Neves Azorean Red X Brandywine. I received the F2 seeds from "TomsTrees" last year and grew them out this past season. Really tasty tomato. I was told on some Forum that N.A.R.X. was the proper nomenclature for this strain. Maybe I am incorrect???

Raybo

I came to this thread from a search, because I was wondering what NARX was from another thread.

Of 23 varieties I started, 14 from Trudi, 4 from another forum member here, and 5 purchased Old German is the only one that gave me trouble. 0/6 and then 1/9, I have the one plant and will be taking extra special care of it. I can't speak about NAR but it's on my list for next year, so I'll be watching to see if I need to do any thing special w/ it. Now I'm also curious about NARX.

I do have NAR on rhe lisr, I just checked the amount and I've only got eight packs left, so the fastest arriving SASEs are going to get them. I'll paste in a link.

Here is a link that might be useful: YCTS List

Ray, you're referring to a cross that Hoosier made and it should be Brandywine X NAR b/c as I recall the female parent goes first, and in this case I think that was true b/c having a PL female parent then allows one to ASAP see if the cross took by looking for RL seedlings in the F1 growout since RL is dominant to PL.

If you have just NARX no one knows what the other parent is.

If I weren't so lazy this AM I'd go to the back room and get out the pack of seeds that Hoosier sent to me which were F1 seeds and take a look but I'm pretty sure I'm right about expressing the cross as Brandywine X NAR.

Folks are getting a lot of interesting selections from this cross and I know that Bill has done a thread here where he described and showed pictures of some of the selections.

So it looks like you weren't sowing NAR, you were sowing seed from the cross, actually the F2 seeds that Tom gave you.

Carolyn, who of course was interested in this cross b'c of the NAR parent and what I got out from the F1, I could only grow one plant, was an RL large plant and now I've forgotten the fruit color but it must have been red since these were F1 seeds and red (NAR) is dominant to pink ( Brandywine). And yes, I saved F2 seeds but can't grow them out this summer b/c I have so many new ones to grow out and restricted space now as opposed to what I used to grow years ago.

hi, I planted one seed of neves azorean red and it was the first to germinate by far and it's the strongest plant as well. you could of had old seeds???

DLF

I found that long thread about Brandywine X NAR, which is correct, by doing a search, and it has 56 posts but as others have noted, the searched stuff can't be displyed, so when they fix that problem just enter Brandywine X NAR in the search feature to read that long thread and look at the pictures.

Carolyn

Carolyn

The thread is below.

After you do the search and the threads appear on the screen, don't left-click on the one you want. Right-click on it and copy the link location. Then paste it in the URL window, remove the "2" after "forums", and press return.

Here is a link that might be useful: Neves x Brandywine Cross Report

The "NARX" I referred to is shorthand for Neves Azorean Red X Brandywine. I received the F2 seeds from "TomsTrees" last year and grew them out this past season. Really tasty tomato. I was told on some Forum that N.A.R.X. was the proper nomenclature for this strain. Maybe I am incorrect???

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ray,

The F2 seed you received from TomTrees was a product of Brandywine x Neves Azorean Red, with the seed mother being Brandywine and the pollen donor being NAR.

To say "Neves Azorean Red x Brandywine" would be to indicate the converse or reciprocal cross, which to my knowledge hasn't been done.

Tom chose to call the plants he is growing in New Jersey "NARX" possibly because the Neves Azorean Red pollen donor plant was grown from seed he sent me, and I guess he takes some proprietary interest and sponsorship in the resulting cross from that point of view. That's fine with me especially since he was one of the very first persons to help growing out the project. We discussed it via email, and we agreed he is free to call his NARX, but that was after he had sent F2 seed to you.

On another point, I would hesitate to call anything at the F2 or even the F3 stage a "strain" however. One person who grew out 10 F2s got 10 distinct segregation/recombinations, and the F3s already are showing the appropriate CC, Cc, cc leaf shape expressions and I anticipate a similar instability/recombination variance in fruit color between pink and red. Way too soon to call anything a "strain."

For example, the F3 seeds two F2 regular leaf plants (one pink-fruited and one red-fruited) already are sprouting 3 RL to 1 PL this year ... showing those two plants were Cc. The same may be true of the seeds Tom sent you from his RL plant, or they may be unstable for red fruit, whatever. So, again, too soon to call anything a "strain."

With regard to the subject of this thread, and because to discuss a custom cross is way off-subject with the only connection being NAR as the pollen donor in this case, I have never had a problem germinating the NAR seeds I got from Tom and I have had only one isolated problem germinating seeds from the Brandywine x NAR cross. The rest of the F1, F2 and F3 seeds have germinated robustly, so I think this one instance I have of F3 seeds failing to germinate at all must have something to do with too long in the bleach bath or a similar issue.

I'm almost sorry I distributed any F1 or F2 Brandywine x NAR seeds, but I simply do not have room to grow out sufficient plants to find what it is I'm looking for. I appreciate the help I've gotten from folks in New Jersey (Tom), Germany (Ami), Delaware (Big Daddy), and Canada (Grunt and Grungy). They have taken the time to carefully document with pictures and words what they are getting in the way of leaf form and fruit color, etc. And I hope anyone to whom the seeds come from any of those five good folks will be careful to observe variations closely and keep track of what's going on for a few more generations before concluding they have anything near stable and worthy of a permanent name. And they are free to name such a stable result anything they wish.

I guess all I can say at this point is everyone can pursue their lines however and call the results whatever they wish. Best of luck. I've gotten some dynamite stuff so far.

Bill

My NAR seeds I got from Tom turned out yellow.

I think he said he originally got them from a secret lab in Norway where SSE is working with Monsanto on GMO heirlooms and promoting them via slideshows and articles in magazines.

Thank-you for all your responses!
. .
.

Carolyn...................
Let me first say how grateful my wife and I are that you introduced this variety. This is our absolute favorite tomato. We love it.

Also, my math was a little off in determining percentages.
My overall germination rate was closer to 25%, but still something's wrong.

I had a mix of seed sources this year. A few from Tomato-fest, a few from Tomato Growers Supply and a few from a friend. They were all left over from last year. I sowed a couple in seedling mix and a half-dozen in paper towels wrapped around the inside of pint-size mason jars. That's my favorite method because you can see the seedling sprout.

Two of the four I sowed in soil sprouted. None in the mason jar sprouted. So I figured they needed dark. I then sowed about a dozen more seeds in seedling mix and placed them in the oven with the oven-light on to maintain a temperature of 76 degrees. Only 6 germinated successfully. I then put out a call for help on this forum and received a gift of some NAR seeds from a forum member. These were commercial seeds, a year or so old, from Tomato Growers Supply. Three out sixteen germinated successfully.

At the same time it was recommended for me to purchase a pack of NAR seeds from Diane's Seeds. She ships them out the same day. Seven out of thirty-two seeds germinated successfully. Meanwhile, her exclusive Purple Passion seeds that Diane sent me germinated eight out of eight. She also sent me some mini-pepper seed that germinated eight for eight. So what could the NAR seed need that the Purple Passion or mini-pepper seed didn't. What do you think?
. .
.

Anney and Rnewste...........................

It's too late for patience. I've already abandoned this tray and let it dry out. I kept it moist for about 4 weeks. Maybe I should have waited longer. The first ones came up in 5-17 days. After they slow down sprouting I usually figure after a week or so that I've got all I'll get. Although I have had some overly wet seedling trays seem to fail and after setting them aside for a couple of weeks in failure, they dried out enough to sprout.
. .
.

daylilyfanatic4...........................

Do you remember how soon your Neves germinated? My fastest Neves were last years leftovers from Tomato Growers Supply. They germinated in 5 days. My slowest was fresh seed from Diane. Most of hers germinated in about 7-10 days, but a couple took 17 days.
. .
.

trudi.....................

Thanks, but I'm good for this year.
. .
.

WELL, SO............................................

I wonder if it could be something unique to Neves. I wonder if those with more success might share their germinating methods to see if there is something that I am leaving undone. Those with similar Neves problems might share their methods too. Maybe we'll find a common problem in our method of germinating seeds.
. .
. .
. MUCH THANKS TO ALL.

Bob - Northern Light

Bob

If you want more of the NARs for this year, you can take cuttings, and they'll grow just like the original plant. Which you probably know.

But if you haven't thought about it to replace those that didn't germinate, the best are suckers that 3-6" long placed in small containers of soilless mix and kept moist and shaded for up to a week. They may sag at first but as they begin to take up water and develop roots, they'll perk right up. Set them in the sun to harden off, and plant 'em out.

I wonder if it could be something unique to Neves

*****

I just can't see that Bob.

I got my original seeds from Chuck Perry who was taking an adult ed class on heirloom tomatoes with me and he gave them to me in a little jar, and well, I've gone through the history before so I'll stop here.

And those seeds germinated 100 % and I've grown it out many times, saving seeds when needed, especially for my SSE listing which I no longer list, and I've never had any problem at all.

And I've distributed one heck of a lot of NAR seeds not just thru that SSE listing but also in several free seed offers I've made on line. The first two were here at GW and subsequent to that at another place.

And I don't remember anyone having problems with germination if the seeds are not too old and they're sown properly in the right mix.

One of the reasons I keep so many older varieties is b'c I always worry that something might happen to those varieties in the future.

Just recently I sent out some really old Zogola seeds to someone b'c they were not getting germination with the Zogola seeds received from elsewhere, and more than one source was involved. Someone who had fresher sees than mine and also was getting great germination also offered to send those seeds to that person as well.

And there's a long long thread at another place where I post about how sometimes seeds for a variety just plain don't germinate well and the same seeds sown the next year do much better.

Who knows what might be going on b'c I sure don't.

Carolyn

I had poor germination (

Bob,

I know I sent you some of the same batch of seeds that I used this year and I had 7 of the 8 seeds germinate and they are now planted out. I did have trouble with some 2 years ago, but those were not the same batch that we both used this year. I have 2 planted out here, cuz I gave 5 seedlings away, and will save seeds from them.. I have always found my saved seeds more reliable than many I've purchased from the suppliers most people use.

Rob

Here in South Florida we are done the fall/winter season and in the middle of winter/spring season (and soon too hot to grow any more tomatoes).

My NAR seeds also had poor germination (2/5) and after starting some again I struggled to get one living plant. However it was worth it. Awesome tomatoes, very meaty and the biggest of the season so far.

My seeds came from a GW'er, probably dwlcrl (his handle here).

And speaking of Zogola, also very poor germination and no living plant due to TYLCV spread by whitefly. Say la vee.

Neves is on my "keeper" list now that I have fresh seed.

Denise

{{gwi:816822}}

{{gwi:816824}}

* Posted by tylenol z10 Ca (My Page) on
Sun, Apr 5, 09 at 19:50
I know I sent you some of the same batch of seeds that I used this year and I had 7 of the 8 seeds germinate and they are now planted out.

============================================================

Rob (tylenol),

I do thank you for those seeds. They were my quickest germinating NAR's this year. However, as I wrote earlier, I only got 3 plants out of the 16 seeds you sent me.

Obviously, the gardener is the problem. Perhaps I need to update my germination methods. Since you got such good germination with the same seed batch, would mind sharing your methods with me. I'm not used to starting seeds in mix. I usually start them using the paper towel method. It may be my mix or my moisture content, I'm guessing, that's causing my problems.

Bob

I had 100% germination in 1 week with my NAR seed from Tomato-fest. -JoAnne

One (really far out) possibility.

Remember the anthrax attack in the northeast back in 2003, I think it was?

At that time, in response, mail was irradiated in some areas of the eastern US, which killed anthrax spores and other living organisms, including seeds. The practice was eventually limited to mail going to government offices in about 4 or 5 zip code mail hubs in New Jersey.

People do successfully germinate older tomato seeds for years and years, so who's to say the age of the seeds we may have in our possession or what they've been exposed to.

Bob

I use regular seed starter mix and cover them about 1/8 of an inch. Placed on a heating pad set at medium, I usually start to see sprouts in 3-4 days.

I repot at around 2 weeks and plant out at 6 or 7. These were 5 weeks on 3/21 and I put them in the ground on 3/29

Thanks for the response.
Nice pics.

What about moisture?

Do you soak the mix, lightly water it?
Do you cover it with plastic wrap?
Or mist it every day to keep it from drying out?
All of the above?
None of the above?

Thanks,

Bob

Bob,

I use 1-1/2 inch pony packs- 6 per set, with a #1020 tray and clear dome. I fill with dry starter mix and let them bottom soak with warm water in the sink for about an hour. I let them drain for about an hour on milk crates and then start throwin' seeds. I cover with about 1/8 inch of dry and spray with a bottle. I leave the dome slightly open at one end about a 1/2 inch. Temp usually remains around 78-80, with the heating pad, and I do lightly spray once day. Then out to the garage and under the lights they go !

I take them off the lights about 2 weeks after potting up and put them out every day on the driveway, starting with filtered sun.

Rob

Bob,

Just an addition to my above post. I keep my newly planted seeds in a china hutch ,thats stays fairly dark, until the seeds start to sprout. After 24 or so hours, I then put them under the lights.

Rob

I got some NAR seeds from a GW member that posts here. I do not want to name anyone as I respect people's privacy, and he can tell us how he saved seeds if he wishes to, but whatever he did was right!

I got 100% germination rate. Unfortunately there were gardener problems and unexpected temperature swings. Not all survived, but the ONLY seedlings that survived were NAR (there were several varieties and we sowed them again). I now have two NAR seedlings on the ground, and ONE seed left.

I got 25% (3/12) germination from my NAR seeds. The 3 that came up took about 2 weeks. They are also the weakest plants I have. 2 are the same as described by roper2008, stem with stuck seed coat. I softened up the seed coat and it slipped off. Those 2 are still pretty sickly looking. The third one has nice large cotyledon and a strong stem, but just the smallest buds of the first true leaves. I purchased mine from Diane's Seeds. I bought 5 varieties (plus 1 freebie). All the other varieties had 85%-100% germination. All others came up in less than 5 days expect Earl's Faux which was a slow poke at 10 days. I traded some of my seeds with my Dad who got his seeds from Harris Seeds. His were hybrids which came up in about 5 days with 90% germination. He hasn't planted any of my seeds yet.

I germinated in a Jiffy greenhouse using Jiffy pellets at 75 degrees.

I planted the remaining 7 of my NAR seeds a week ago. Nothing yet.

Todd (long time lurker, first time poster)

I can hardly believe this. The second of the three NAR seeds I planted in my second batch suddenly germinated.. It took almost five weeks! I really don't understand how that happened. Intending to dump it, I'd moved the germinating container away from the lights and the heat, and though the soil was still somewhat moist, it was downright cold to the touch.

Well, that means I won't have to take a cutting from the first one that germinated unless this one conks out.

I am gradually being overwhelmed by tomato seedlings now. I need only 14 but have 31 so far. I guess I'll offer the extras on Craig'sList or FreeCycle.

Yep Anney,

That (4 weeks germination) was exactly my experience with NAR this year.

Raybo

Raybo,

Both your NAR and your NARX took 4 weeks to germinate? Were both kinds of seeds in the same starter tray or started at the same time under the same conditions?

Bill

Bill,

Sorry, I forgot the "X" on the end of NAR (guess Carolyn "spooked" me about the proper nomenclature, but I KNOW I was told by someone to call it this). I am not growing plain NAR this season.

Raybo