I get approximately the same germination rates from commercial hybrids and commercially obtained open pollinated tomato seeds. I see no reason why hybrid tomato seed should give better or worse germination rates than open pollinated seed based simply on OP vs F1.

Occasionally, I've gotten poor results from commercial source open pollinated seeds, but in every case, those were seeds that the source offered some warning of that possibility due to old seed.

I get excellent germination rates with open pollinated seeds I save myself and have gotten widely variable germination rates with open pollinated seeds saved by others amateur hobbiests.

The only seed out of several dozen individual types to show dismal germination rates this year were Country Orange, and Berg ... both amateur-saved seed. Some dwarf types gave extremely slow but near 100% germination this year as did Wild Florida Everglades ... or whatever the heck it's called. In the past, Earl's Faux was a lazy but high-percentage germinator. Those last three examples seem to be variety-specific slowpokes.

Does anyone know if NAR is a slow germinator? It is the only one that is not up yet after 7 days. I did get the seeds from a kind person in the mail that had gotten the seeds from TGS. The seeds were on the inside of a card and I am wondering if mayber the mail sorters could have crushed the seed as the platic zip bag they were in did have indentation of the seeds. Is it possble they could have been destroyed in the mail?

Does anyone know if NAR is a slow germinator

*****

All I can say is that I introduced that variety and thus have grown it longer and probably more frequently than anyone else, and no, it's not slow to germinate.

But that's with my own saved seeds.

TGS has been offering it for quite a few years and you don't know the age of the seeds sent to you by the person who did so. Why don't you ask the person who sent them to you when they were purchased.

Is it possible they could have been crushed in the mail? Yes, but I find that to be remote based on the fact that I've sent out thousands of packs of seed both for SSE reqests and for my seed offers and no one to date, and this goes back to the early 90's, has reported crushed seeds.

Also, I don't get concerned about germination until about two weeks have passed. If you want to you can carefully dig down in your seed starting mix to see what state they're in. I think you would have noticed crushed seeds when you planted them .

I just put them in #1 coin envelopes and send them out, unless an SSE request is for lots of varieties, and then I use a bubble type mailer.

Carolyn

Don't you hate it when your germplasm gets crushed in a postal machine :::ouch:::

Carolyn they were seeds that wer purchased this year from TGS, and yes in the platic bag there were some what i would call debree in the package but the seeds looked to be in good shape, i planted 12 as I had planned to give at least a coupel aways to family members. I know you said you would not be concerned until 14 days but with what I hope relatively fresh seeds that would be up by now. In the seed sells on a couple of the seeds there is what I would call spiderweb shoots comming out so I am not sure if that is the rotting seeds or what that could be as none of the other cells are showing that. my other seeds in the same 72 cell tray seem to be on about a 80-90 percent germination after 7 days.

I think I will try and get in touch with the person that sent me the seeds and see how her germination went.

Oh and Hoosiercherokee the seeds you sent me I have 4 of 6 CG up some in 4 days one at day 7, 4 of 6 Spudakee and 4 of 6 indian stripe. I am going to have to wait on the Sam Houston until I have a little more space or depending on next years plans might try then. Thanks again for the seeds and am glad your did not get struck down my the mail machines.

Thanks for all the responses. There are lots of points made that I would like to address but I think that first I should update the numbers. "Significantly" (I suppose) CERR has shown one.

Variety Source Cost Germination rate

Clint Eastwood's Rowdy Red Tomatofest $3.95 1 of 6

German Johnson Tomatofest $3.95 5 of 6 (but wait)

Green Zebra Tomatofest $3.95 1 of 6

Malakhitovaya Shkatulka Baker Creek $2.75 5 of 6

Cherokee Purple Baker Creek $2.00 5 of 6

Neves Azorean Red Tomatofest $3.95 6 of 12 (50%)

Carbon Baker Creek $2.50 3 of 6

Persimmon Tomatofest $3.95 2 of 6

Dona Tomato Bob $2.95 5 of 6

Lemon Boy Livingston Seed $1.99 6 of 6

Chadwick's Cherry Tomatofest Bonus 3 of 6

And yes, I do agree that it is still early. On the other hand, for "commercially" sourced seeds my past experience is that only very rarely did anything take longer than a week.

I wish I could make that table look better. Does anyone know how?

P.S. - If anyone still has a few seeds of F1 hybrid Dona around, I would be really pleased to have a couple.

I can't see much difference in sprouting times between OP and Hybrids.

My germination time is taking longer this year than in years past. My seed is relatively new seed, purchased within the last 2-3 years, and some purchased this year. Some from Sandhill, some from Burpee, some from Heirloom Seeds in PA. So, it's a mix of sources... same as you.

I used the same methods as I always do. I use the Jiffy pellets too. Last year, I remember having sprouts as early as 5 days from planting, and most coming up by day 7. This year, I'm going on day 7 without the first hint of germination. I used a toothpick to uncover a few of the seeds to check on their progress. Brandyboy which was first up last year, is no further ahead in germination than Brandywine Sudduth's. So, I don't think Hybrid or OP makes any difference. The seeds have swelled some, look healthy, but just haven't "popped" a leg yet. I put a heating mat under them today to see if that will speed things up, but I think they just come up when they darn well feel like it! lol

I know my grandfather followed the Farmer's almanac pretty close when it came to watching moon phases and planting time. Superstition or science? I think there might be some truth there.

Thanks, Carolyn, for your early response. I saw it but didn't come back right away because I was out preparing raised beds and then I had to go to the dentist. Ouch!

You've repeated, or restated some of what you had to say in the other two threads that I referenced. I'm glad you did and hoped you would and I still encourage anyone not familiar with your posts to go and see those.

** "In my opinion the biggest is seed age .

With fresh seed that I've saved I never get less than 90-100% germination" **

Age of seed is touched upon in a couple of other replies. Not having ever tried to grow very old tomato seeds, I have no personal experience here but have to rely on the word of others. That said, I do believe the idea is correct. Would this mean that Tomatofest is selling old seed? Certainly there is something they are doing that is at least irresponsible though I don't know how that relates specifically to C E Rowdy Red. I was under the impression they had not released it until very recently. So how would the seed be old unless they were doing something like saving up huge quantities of it in anticipation of an unprecedented demand? Anyway, the very low rate of germination from Tomatofest is across the whole gamut of seeds that I bought from them.

** "Tomatofest and Baker Creek" **

Well, I don't really want to pick on anyone but lookit here - Tomatofest has the slickest and most professional web site, the most hype, the highest prices and the very worst performance. You also point out Baker Creek as having received comments but for two of their three varieties I have 5 of 6 and another is 3 of 6. I don't think I would hold it against any supplier to send me some poorly germinating seed, especially if it is anomalous. I've never bought from Baker Creek before either but given my small sample size, I'm content. Poor germination with Tomatofest, on the other hand, seems to be across the board. I'm not discarding anything yet but besides non-germination it seems to me that slow germination is an issue of quality too. I have not contacted Tomatofest yet but eventually will. Most likely, I'll test a few more to get a larger sample size. Again though, lookit here - for a supplier to ask $3.95 for a small packet of seeds and leave me in the position of having to do my own germination test is just unacceptable. They should do it and certify the results before selling anything.

** "But results can differ" **

Yes, of course, and I haven't done a double-blind study either, just planted a few seeds for my garden. Then look at some of the other rates (5 and 6 out of 6). All are planted in the same flat under the same conditions so that does mitigate some of the possible variability. Then again, the question I posed was over OP germination rates and most of these varieties are OP.

I also note your recommendation for other suppliers, which I've seen in some of your other posts. Perhaps I should have been more careful but in looking to get the varieties I wanted with as few orders as possible (shipping costs something too) I ended up where I am.

You make some very good points, Carolyn, and I appreciate it. I don't want to quibble with anything but I am trying to understand a situation so that I can better avoid it next time.

Aninocentangel, I haven't given up yet and as you may note a couple more have come up since my first post.
However, slow germination I think is also a quality issue. If it doesn't mean a seriously weak plant to start with it at least means a delay in having a plant ready to set out when the weather gets better. From the day I put the seeds in, I typically have gotten plants 10" to 12" high, 10" to 12" wide with a good big root ball and 1/2" to 5/8" diameter stem in five weeks. This has been very consistent from year to year and across varieties. I like to get them out so I can get tomatoes on my table. If some seed takes 22 days to germinate then it is just two weeks late. Granted, I would overplant and I do select the strongest seedlings, so that delinquent would get short shrift. You mention selection criteria which I will lump in with seed handling in maintaining that, if I am buying seeds, the supplier should do all that. As you can see from my table, some appear to have done a good job and some (read maybe one) definitely have not.
As for the creators of hybrids selecting for germination time, I really doubt that. There are so many other variables they have to deal with that it just seems to me unlikely that anyone would breed for fast germination. I'm not saying they don't and I take your point as made but just in case that is the reality I would like to hear it supported by someone with real inside knowledge. Anyone? But this does get right to the heart of the question I originally asked. My use of definitions has been very poor but if you take the topic of germination rate to be a judgment of not only how many come up but also how long they take, my very limited experience is leaning toward the suspicion that there is a difference. I'm not arguing for hybrids as against OP as I like both. Besides, I would never even have asked the question if I hadn't been trying more OP varieties this year to start with. The thing is, having done so, I find the variability to be a huge surprise and would like to know why. There is such a thing as hybrid vigor and I'm wondering just now if that might not have something to do with it. If so, I can live with that. If I have to change my techniques and my expectations to get the varieties I want (when I want them) then I will do that. The problem remains to know just how to do that and what information to factor in.
Thanks for your viewpoint.

Hoosiercherokee and Reginald 25.

Hi, Bill - remember my big deal about the Wharton silt loam and only a foot of it? I'm digging again and doing OK at it. Just an aside.

You two guys both bring up the possibility of variation from one variety to another.

** "not hi germ rates with CERR... perhaps 50%" **

** "dwarf types gave extremely slow but near 100% germination" **

** "Earl's Faux was a lazy but high-percentage germinator" **

** "Those last three examples seem to be variety-specific slowpokes" **

Well, I don't see why not and I do think it is a very good point indeed, which brings up the question, "How does one know?" By personal experience only or is there (can there be) a general source of information? For instance, if CERR is just a shy germinator, why should I care if I can plant a few more seeds. Or is Tomatofest being irresponsible and greedy. They did hype this variety so much it made my mouth water. That should mean they knew enough about it to realize either that it is slow or that the germination rate is low, if that is the case. If it is they should be disclosing that and putting more seeds in the packet to compensate. Again, I can live with such a fact, if it is indeed a fact. I can plant more seeds and I can plant a few days earlier. It's not a crime for a variety to be a slowpoke but I do think it less than honest if someone claims to have such a lot of knowledge for a variety with such a long (private) history, does that with such a lot of hoopla and then fails to reveal some salient information that would help their customers, all while asking the highest price of anyone. Or are they just being lazy and careless. As we all know, information from seed sellers is often sparse or worse. And, Bill, you do point out that you have even had warnings from commercial sources about the potential quality of their seed. That should be the way it is though we as customers probably cannot enforce that except by going to the suppliers we know who practice that kind of concern. That then probably eliminates one supplier from my consideration for future purchases. I'm open to hearing their defense if they have one.

Sneezer,

I pointed out the case where a commercial source (one that you mention as a source of your seeds) sold me seeds and on the back of the package (in two instances) they included a note something like "this envelope is over packed due to low germination rate." In both those cases, I over-planted the starter cells and still got over 80% germination. So, I felt I got my money's worth from that company and will continue to buy from them.

The reason I used Earl's Faux as an example of a slow germinator is that when I first planted it, I was really excited to have a new-to-me variety and was sorely disappointed when 7 or 8 days later ... no sprouts ... zip. Then about ten days after planting ... up sprang all the seedlings. The same happened this March with a few dwarves, which later I found has happened to other folks with the same dwarf varieties.

Now, with regard to your downright sorry germination rates from one company ... there can be other reasons than just pure age of the seeds. Often very old seeds still give decent germination rates, if the seeds are stored properly. Last year I got 70% (a full 70 out of 100 seeds) out of some Mozark seeds from the University of Missouri dated 1964. Obviously, someone at Mizzou had stored those seeds very carefully.

It seems that fluctuations in temperature and humidity is as much an enemy of tomato seed viability as is age in and of itself. Steady, cool, dry storage ... even if that's at room temperature, so long as it's steady and dry, seems to be the key ... dry with as little fluctuation in temperature as possible.

Maybe when a seed goes cold then warm again and picks up moisture through exposure to condensation or atmospheric humidity ... swells even a tiny bit ... it triggers a readiness to germinate and uses up some of it's stored vitality. Then if the seed doesn't continue coming alive, and returns to a dormant more desicated state, that little bit of expended energy represents a percentage loss in vitality. If fluctuations in temperature and humidity cause this "false start" enough times, the seed just totally loses its "umph." Just a non-professional, unproven theory on my part.

Didn't think to look at on the back of the packet.

To their credit, TGS did stamp "Below Standard Germination, Seed Count Doubled".

Still, even if you want to throw out the 12 that went through the H2O2 bath, that leaves 3 sprouts from 24 planted and "robust" is not a word that leaps to mind when viewed.

A newbie mistake perhaps ... If I had it to do over, I may have increased my sowing by 50% but probably not dbl, I was already planting 12 looking for a minimum of 3 vigorous sprouts, eventually to put out 2 sturdy plants.

I probably would have been more patient. Whether or not that would have been the correct strategy ...

Dave, I missed something until that last post of yours ...

You bathed the seeds in hydrogen peroxide before planting? How long a bath and at what strength? Did you rinse the seeds after the H**O** soaking? Was there any particular reason you treated commercial seeds that way? Did you notice whether the seeds you treated had been "de-fuzzed" by the company (which reduces the thickness of the seed coat and thereby reduces the protection of the endoplasm)?

Bill, Linked the post below.

Very uncontrolled, very much seat of pants :-)

Wrought by the frustration of failure and ignorance.

One more time, just so we're straight. Planted 3 seeds in each of 4 pellets/variety for 20 varieties all on the same day, treated exactly the same and all kept in exactly the same environment. Nothing special, no soaking, no size selection, the first twelve seeds from the pack went into a moistened and fluffed pellet. Thats it.

I did have a bit of mold early which I sccoped out and may have involved MLs (I don't really think that should skew the result to the positive) On about day 10 (+-) 1, I got antsy since every other variety had at least 1 sprout showing, most with many more. On about day 12 (+-) 1ish, easily half were thinned to 2 sprouts per cell and by potting up day I'd put it closer to 3/4s.
Its all here but not in one place. Relevant posts would be found in threads named,

Who's starting seeds this week?

Ugh-Oh, scuzz on the sprouts

Mortgage lifter slow to germinate?

Minor experiment

ok, at what point to you thin your seedlings...

Potting up day (pics)

My grow list is in the "the post your tomato growing list thread." with the additions of Sprite and Grampa's Minnesota which were unexpected promotional freebies.

As to sources of seeds, observations of note have been and the one mistake I made citing Tomato Fest as the sourse for the troubled MLs has been corrected to TGS.

I'm no kind've expert and very weak on the science of it all but I've sprouted and grown to maturity hundreds and as a kid helped Dad with thousands. I'm enjoying rediscovering gardening as a hobby and quality food sourse but I HATED selling vegies door to door and everything that went with that as a kid.

>>"Still, even if you want to throw out the 12 that went through the H2O2 bath, that leaves 3 sprouts from 24 planted and robust is not a word that leaps to mind when viewed."I guess when I read that, I jumped to the conclussion that you typically do a peroxide bath on your seeds before planting. If that's the case, I was wondering how long, how strong, etc. ... as those factors may have a bearing on seed viability. But then you did say "throw out those 12 seeds that went thru the peroxide bath" [paraphrased], so ... whatever point that leaves us at.

My tactic is to plant nearly all the seeds in a small commercial pack and select the best seedlings to grow out. That usually amounts to 10 - 20 seeds per type and then selecting out maybe three, 4, 5, whatever of the best examples to pot up ... then further selecting the best one or two to keep and giving the rest away. From that point on ... I'm saving my own seeds from those selected plants. Yeah, yeah ... I know ... not a good cross section of individuals for genetic whatever ... but just my method and it works for me.

Bill

Continued but OT,

~~~ I'm enjoying rediscovering gardening as a hobby and quality food sourse but I HATED selling vegies door to door and everything that went with that as a kid. ~~~

Lest ye think I'm an ungrateful wretch, it wasn't about the doh, Dad did fine but his job forced him to travel. He figured it would be better for his sons to be kept busy.

He was right but that didn't help at the time when everyone else was out having fun and I had to pick off horn worms or spade plots or spray the orchard or tend the strawberrys or (shudder) carry baskets of produce door to door, all for by seasons end, a hand full of change.

The business aspects that he taught us were invaluable. Work ethic, had to buy the seed and treatments, rented ground, tiller and fuel and even bought his gas when he'd take us to the city for even more door to door.

I'm not ungrateful, just honest about not enjoying running an unofficial truck farm as a youngster.

I ordered all my tomato seeds from TomatoFest and have had some weird germination rates as well. 3 year old seeds I saved from my Grandpa's heirloom pink oxheart (unknown), that weren't fermented, germinated within 3 days with vigor! The way I see it, if the conditions are good enough for one variety of tomato, the rest of the varieties should be sprouting as well. Picky 'maters.

I'm at work and don't have all my germination rates with me. I will end up with 85% or better on around 300 plants. My hybrid tray ended up 96% on 96 out of 100. And some of the seed was 4 years old. My op's are varying widely. As a whole close to 85%. But by variety from 0% up. Of course a few of the varieities I only planted 2-3 seeds. So not a fair judgement. On CERR seeds from Tomato Fest last year I had 100%. And on Baker Creek seeds I have a few varieties less than 50%. This year Baker Creek's seeds have done a lot better. I have seeds from one SSE member which I seem to be struggling with. And it seems to be all the seeds I purchased this year. The seeds I purchased last year germinated well both years. I have noticed a big difference in sprouting times. Out of 4 trays the first was up in 4-6 days and it has took as long as 18 days for the last. As an example Red Penna seeds from Carolyn after 9 days none were up so planted some more in a later tray. I ended up with 11-12. But in both trays the first were 10 days and went to 14 days. In the last tray I planted seeds which I thought weren't coming up in earlier trays. And most came up. I just didnt' give them enough time. I've been reviewing my notes and trying to make some judgement about the cause of the problems. I think in a few cases it was where I stored some seeds last summer. I misplaced some and didn't find them till this winter. In others it maybe the age. In the case of the SSE member I'm thinking it maybe how they saved the seeds. These are all just thoughts.
Carolyn I will make a full report of the germination rate on your seeds as soon as the last tray is finished and will do it on the thread at the other site. Matt D Imperio(spelling maybe wrong) is another that was slow for me. I also seeded more of them and in the last tray had 5 out of 6 as of last night. But the first to sprout was ten days.
In summary I have'nt drawn any concrete opinions as too cause. I will say TF's germination rates have been in the top 20% of vendors. Hope everyone gets enough plants so they can grow and save their own seeds. JD

I've seen no difference in germination between hybrid/heirloom - I regularly grow between 80-150 different varieties each year (99% heirlooms), and while there are a couple of slower varieties each year, the vast majority germinate with no problems.

However - as Carolyn has noted - there has been variation in terms of seed age. but for that we're talking relatively old - for seeds up to around 5 years old, no difference.

I also haven't noticed a huge difference with regard to where I've gotten the seeds from, EXCEPT - there's a difference in terms of packaging rather than source. I couldn't figure out why the seeds I'd get from one particular source would simply not germinate. Nada. Nothing. I'd order 10-20 varieties and nothing would come up. A couple of years in a row. Others had similar problems with this source, so I figured it must be the seeds. It bothered me though, as it didn't make sense. How could none of the seeds come up?

I then discovered a common link among the seeds I've been sent, either from trades or those I've purchased, and it's this: seeds sent in plastic/cellophane-type envelopes won't germinate or have extremely poor germination. That's the one commonality I've discovered. I don't know why this is the case - I've gotten seeds in small paper envelopes that were then put in regular envelopes, and those have been fine - maybe the plastic envelopes are thinner and so they go through some kind of mail sorting machine that crushes them? At least at my post office/sorting center? Again though, this has been the one common thread among my poor germinators. Shrug.

Btw, Carolyn, I've always heard the word "shkatulka" translated as "box" - often used for jewelry boxes. Malachite box sounds a little better than Malachite casket, at least! ;-)

Strange - the one order of seed I've received in a little zip-loc plastic bag has done just fine. All the poor ones are in paper.

Coincidence and randomness are wonderful manifestations of Nature!

Btw, Carolyn, I've always heard the word "shkatulka" translated as "box" - often used for jewelry boxes. Malachite box sounds a little better than Malachite casket, at least! ;-)

*****

Couldn't prove it by me since I'm a novice re the Russian language. ( smile)

Tania who is Russian and lives in Canada calls it box, and Andrey who lives in Belarus calls it casket.

Quite a few times I've seen them translate the same variety name differently.

Is not a casket a box? And couldn't said casket be the repository for a woman wearing jewels, in which case could we not call it a jewel box? LOL

Carolyn

cas·ket
Pronunciation: \ˈkas-kət\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, perhaps modification of Middle French cassette
Date: 15th century
1 : a small chest or box (as for jewels)
2 : a usually fancy coffin

I've seen it said that the use of "casket" for coffin is not necessarily peculiar to America but more common than in most other countries. Nevertheless, the first definition of casket even in an American dictionary is "small chest or box as for jewels."

Growing only heirloom seeds, I had a 95% germination rate. I planted 3 of each of 7 heirloom varieties. One Caspian Pink did not grow. About half of those seeds are 3 years old (that's about as far as I will stretch it, but I have very good seed-storage methods). I am starting to learn direct yearly seed-saving techniques anyway, so that should not be a problem for me in the future).

I've seen it said that the use of "casket" for coffin is not necessarily peculiar to America but more common than in most other countries. Nevertheless, the first definition of casket even in an American dictionary is "small chest or box as for jewels."

*****

Well thank you Bill on that one and I know that Andrey does use a Russian/English dictionary at times.

He recently sent me a pair of socks made out of Siberian dog hair, wait, they were beautiful, but too small for me to even get them on ( just the ankle part b'c my feet/ankles swell due to the diabetes). He said he bought the equivalent of a European size 41 ( about size 10 he said) and I told him I wore a size 42 ( size 11) for my Birkenstocks and he replied....well how TALL are you? LOL

And I'm sure he must have used his dictionary to make European/US shoe size equivalents and he was right on but I must tell him I AM tall, as in 5" 10" if I could stand upright again. ( smile)

Carolyn

Looking again and here is an update.

Clint Eastwood's Rowdy Red - Whereas I said on Monday that one had finally come up, two days later that one is still a misshapen runt. I'll give it a chance but right now I can't believe this plant is going anywhere but in the trash. (TF)

German Johnson - 5 of 6. Small seedlings don't look strong, three are malformed. (TF)

Green Zebra - 4 of 6 now. The first one from Monday is still only an inch tall. These are all very weak plants. (TF)

Malakhitovskaya Shkuntala - I spelled it without looking! 5 of 6. One looks nice and strong, making some true leaves. The others are small. One never straightened up. (BC)

Cherokee Purple - 6 of 6 finally. Three strong enough. None impressive. (BC)

NAR - now 9 of 12. But this is strange. The first one germinated in two days and elongated rapidly. It doesn't look like a strong plant but it is tall. Only two others look reasonably strong. The others are short., late and weak. (TF)

Carbon - 3 of 6. Two look OK, the last small. (BC)

Persimmon - 5 of 6 now. Not strong. One couldn't straighten. Only one is even a reasonable plant and it is small. (TF)

Dona - 6 of 6. One still hooked. Two nice and strong. The others just OK. (TB)

Lemon Boy - 6 of 6. One badly malformed. Two reasonable strong. (LS)

Chadwick's Cherry - 4 of 6 now. Two malformed runts and two small and weak. (TF)

I report these for the interest of those of you who said wait a while. I was going to anyway, but just looking at this tray in its entirety I have to conclude that the germination and quality are much lower than I have been accustomed to, especially across the Tomatofest varieties.

My original question was a compromise between what I knew and what I wanted to know, so maybe not the best way of putting it. I conclude tentatively, in particular from all the comments, that the OP/hybrid distinction is not that significant. On the other hand, there do seem to be variables with respect to variety that I would like to know more about. That is aside from seed source, care and preparation, which all seem to think is very important.

I'm now going to leave this thread and rephrase the question with a new one. I will check back to see if anyone has added a comment or two but my attention will be on a new question which will be, "Does precocity matter". I don't have time to put much into it right now (Thank the IRS) but at least I'll start it briefly and come back later.

Spelled it without looking and got it wrong. Ha.Ha.

Sneezer,

Reviewing this thread, and looking at that last message ...

I can see you've been starting your own seeds for years, so I'm assuming you're comparing these weak sprouts to previous years' strong sprouts when declaring "weak," "malformed," etc.

Aside from seed sources and varieties ... is there anything else different about these seed starting trays versus previous years?

Seed starting mix ... what are you using in these trays that are giving weak, malformed sprouts? Same as previous years?

Bottom heat ... or no auxiliary heat? Same as previous years?

Post-emergent light ... same or different?

Just wondering if there's something else different than your previous good results that may be causing this wholesale bad stuff. I've never ordered from TomatoFest, but I have used seeds from the other sources you name; and have not had the wholesale poor results you report ... maybe a few odd weaklings ... but not across the board.

Now I have had some pitiful sprouts and lots of dead-heads when using inferior commercial or experimental homemade seed starting mixes :::smile:::

sorry to move from the casket topic, but the subject of this thead this year has got me intrigued... this year for the first time I decided to chart my germination rates AND the duration in which my toms germinated. I hope to share it with you - I'm on day 9 now and I'm going to give it to 14 (I think that's fair)...

I guess the big thing for me is expectations - you think you're getting seed from an amateur seed saver (for free) that the seed wouldn't be as good as something you BOUGHT. I'm finding the goods that I bought are not germinating as well and quickly (but this is just rough, I haven't entered my data as of yet). I'm finding it very interesting. I'm also finding that things germinate much less time than I thought they did! but again, this is just looking at raw info/data now. I hope to share it soon!

Bill, there are in fact some differences and I now regret not mentioning them, though again that would have only complicated the discussion. And I do agree that "weak", malformed", "runt", etc. are not technically specific terms but they are what I have. I've also, in some cases added a little description of what I meant.

I've used bottom heat and peat pellets for a long time. I've used a small amount of fertilizer in the water but didn't start that until after the first ones were up. Through last year, I used Schultz 10-15-10 Plant Food Plus. This year I started with Dyna-Gro 7-9-5 Liquid Grow for the trace elements.

The lighting configuration is the same (physical dimensions and starting time) but the lights are brighter as I've overdriven the fluorescents. Before, I left them on 24 hours a day but now I turn them off at 10PM and on again at 4AM.

I've added a mycorrhizal preparation (micronized endo/ecto seed mix). You can see this at fungi.com.

Well, who knows, these changes could have some effect but bear in mind that in the same tray I do have some pretty nice looking seedlings. Not many, but there are some, so if there are effects they are not consistent. And in fact, the differences do appear to be specific to supplier though it's not a double-blind study. In fact, if I knew that by these procedures I was sacrificing 90% of my seeds to get 10% better than ever, I would go ahead with it and adapt my planting schedule.

By the way, the seedlings that are not runts are a somewhat darker green than before.

If leaving out this info has left you or any one else in the lurch, I apologize. I wasn't hiding it, but it did slip my mind. I do have a hard time, though, thinking that any of these factors would have a very striking effect on one seedling or row and leave the adjacent ones untouched. Hope this clears matters up.

I don't want to be percieved as a shill for anyone but since I mistakenly maligned them as the source of my much bemoaned MLs, perhaps cosmic law demands it.

I ordered 6 different tomato seed varieties each from TF, Reimer and TGS. In that order costs including shipping were 21.75, 20.75 and 20.05. Seed costs were not considered but rounding out orders to make shipping costs more efficient was. TF was the lowest in that cat.

Each provided a promotional thank you gift, TF arrived 1st, TGS second, Reimer was well behind.

As to plant vigor,

At 19 days, all 3 remaining specimens of TFs Grampa's Minnesota are by far the most robust, followed closely by their Brandywine OTV, Missouri Pink Love Apple and Taxi.

Reimer's Carolina Golds are doing nicely, all remaining varieties with the exception of MLs from TGS are performing well but in a less outstanding way.

Checking in at a plant files data base, indicates these are a mix of seasons and sizes at maturity.

As noted previously, all planted the same day and treated the same.

Just the addition of a couple of details.

1) Nothing has damped off. The runts are just runts.

2) Brighter lights. Could it be that some of the ones I think are small are just that way because they think they don't have to reach as far to get the light they want? Though some are not tall, all of the ones I've said are strong have nice big seed leaves and some (at day 10) are starting to make dark green true leaves.

I've seen it said that the use of "casket" for coffin is not necessarily peculiar to America but more common than in most other countries. Nevertheless, the first definition of casket even in an American dictionary is "small chest or box as for jewels."
- - - -
Okay, but when someone says the word "casket", do you think first of a jewelry box or a coffin? I know I for one have never referred to anything other than a coffin as a "casket." Certainly not my jewelry boxes, even though a casket is, technically, a box.

Anyway, didn't mean to start a debate - just thought I'd provide some info in case someone wants to refer to the tomato as something other than "Malachite Casket." Well, and Malachitovskaya Shkatulka doesn't roll off the tongue for them either. ;-)

Sneezer2,
Sorry it's taken a few days to reply, the semester is winding down so I've been chasing my tail in circles trying to keep up with my household and study for finals.

In my original post I was trying to offer another possible consideration that would effect germination time. I included the data on my seedlings this year for a comparison as we're both experiencing slower germination, however I also have hybrids planted that germinated on a more typical schedule and thought the contrast interesting. I wasn't intending to imply that seed quality and trait selection was your responsibility or that the OP's should be expected to germinate slowly, I apologize if it came across that way. I will say that I do believe that hybrids developed by companies are selected strictly for certain criteria and those that don't meet it are uprooted and destroyed, whereas varieties developed in a seed saver situation, where, I believe, most of the commercially available OP's arise from, are allowed a wider tolerance. I will readily admit that I may be wrong :)

As for hybrid developers not selecting for shorter germination rates, I do beg to differ. In 1989 I spent 6 weeks as a summer intern at a facility run by an extension of UW-Madison. Mostly I was doing the grunt work and tracking growth in the f1's, however I did work with one of the PhD's who was working with a large seed company in developing commercial (not agricultural) tomato hybrids. One of the criteria that they selected for was short germination time, because consumers prefer to see seeds pop up right away. He referred to it as the Jack and the Bean Stalk effect, they felt consumers wanted strong, healthy plants over night. Now, I'm not saying that all hybrids are developed for fast germination, however, it was a consideration in the development of the hybrids at that facility during the time frame that I was there.

I am far from a tomato expert. The work I did was hot, sweaty, boring, and there was this cute guy working with corn... I wish now that I had focused more on tomatoes and less on the corn guy, but I was 17 and knew it all. Heh.

I made an interesting observation the past two days. I started my main tray exactly 10 days ago and starting getting my first sprouts late yesterday evening... various types, sources, and age. I also started another, smaller tray with some last minute add-ons about 4 days later( this place is a bad influence...lol). By the 7th day("normal" time for me) of not getting any germination, I added a heating pad underneath to help encourage them. The smaller tray, I did nothing. Lo and behold, the seed in the smaller tray started sprouted at the same time the larger one did.

This is hardly scientific, but I found it interesting that they all came up around the same time, regardless of age, seed sources, heat/no heat.

Farmer's almanac sited April 4-5 as good planting days which is when I started the second, add-on tray. 5 days later I had sprouts. April 1-3 were considered worse planting days, which is when I started my main tray. Nearly 10 days to first sprouts. I'm not drawing any conclusions from this, but it does make me wonder about the phases of the moon, (which is what the almanac bases it on) and it's relation to plant life.

> "Okay, but when someone says the word 'casket,' do you think first of a jewelry box or a coffin? I know I for one have never referred to anything other than a coffin as a 'casket.' Certainly not my jewelry boxes, even though a casket is, technically, a box. Anyway, didn't mean to start a debate ..." Hey, when someone says "casket," I immediately think of a coffin. I'm American and have coloquially American word associations. Yes, I have always used casket and coffin interchangably.

I simply thought it interesting that "casket" derives from usage meaning ornamental box and historically (mostly outside the U.S.) means a jewelry box, not a coffin.

Where's the debate? No one started a debate ... just exchanging information. Jeeze.

aninocentangel

Thanks for the clarification. If you have that experience then it is clear that someone has been doing that. I'm a little disappointed that they would regard consumers in that way but then maybe that's what we all are. I would prefer them to select for something else and just let me know what the germination time is expected to be. In any case, I haven't been taking any negative implications from what anyone says. I do believe you are right about the difference between commercial and seed-saver situations. On the other hand, from this thread and the others I referenced, it is clear to me that within that distinction there are many variations and a great many things that an individual seed-saver can do to improve quality. It is also clear that some do and some don't and that some of those who don't still sell seeds. I have not been a seed-saver but after this discussion I will probably become one. Slowly at first, but at least while taking the trouble to try and get it right.

It's now day 11 and I appear to have enough good seedlings for myself and a couple to give away. Not the varieties I expected but good enough. I don't want to say that I am angry at anyone over what I've seen but I certainly am chastened and will have to learn to adapt more to the variables that exist. One of the best ways, I suppose, will be to listen more carefully to what Carolyn and others have to say about who is good and who isn't.

>> "One of the best ways, I suppose, will be to listen more carefully to what Carolyn and others have to say about who is good and who isn't." Okay ... so in this particular case, who is good and who isn't?

>> "One of the best ways, I suppose, will be to listen more carefully to what Carolyn and others have to say about who is good and who isn't." Okay ... so in this particular case, who is good and who isn't? ( from Bill)

*****

It isn't clear to me what THIS particular case is.

Is it seed sources, commercial vs home saved seed, and that's an artificial distinction for most of the small specialty tomato sources that so many use.

Or is it precosity, or not, in terms of quality of seedlings?

Or other.

So if someone would please clarify for me what the issue is I think everyone would appreciate it b'c the question wasn't directed JUST at me, it was directed at I assume everyone who has read/posted in this thread, called "others".

Carolyn. another other

I, for one, would love to ask you all manner of questions ranging from advice on heirlooms to do you know my micro professor (Dr. A. [Tony] Strelkauskas), but I'm sure you don't have time for that.
I think in this case it may be more prudent for me to limit myself to asking what commercial supplier of heirloom seeds would you recommend?

I have been pleased with all the vendors I have tried. TomatoGrowers.com, Marianna's Heirlooms, Baker Creek Heirlooms, are three very good places to start that you can order on-line from. They have very good selections. I like to look at all the on-line catalogs, if only for the pictures.

The "issue" for me at the start was to know whether there is a distinction between germination rates for Hybrid or OP seeds. That was a stab at trying to express a complex and unclear situation. I think that in the end it was a poorly phrased question but it did get a lot of good responses, ones which I am grateful for.
I then tried to rephrase it as a question about precocity but didn't get much response there. Perhaps those are coming along or maybe the subject has been beaten to death elsewhere. I'm going to keep my eyes open.

Precocity is still on my mind. In other words, if I eliminate all the other factors in a practical sense just by planting some seeds, does precocity of emergence have any general significance. I say "eliminate variables" not because they don't apply but because once the seeds are planted, then they are planted and they will do what they will do. (Carolyn - "A seed is a seed"). Say if I put in 12 seeds of Malakhitovskaya Shkatulka with the intention of having 4 plants to set out, does precocity of emergence have any relation to which four I select?

Say if I put in 12 seeds of Malakhitovskaya Shkatulka with the intention of having 4 plants to set out, does precocity of emergence have any relation to which four I select?

****

For starters if the seed is fresh, as seed for Mala must be b'c it's new, I wouldn't sow 12or 4 plants, but I digress.

I've had lots of experience waking up very old seed and often one does get stupid looking, weak looking seedlings of some of those that do germinate. IN all cases that I can remember those weak seedlings did just fine once they got going. And they might be early or late as regards germination.

Cutting to the chase, for any given variety I don't distinguish between seedlings that appear earlier or later than others. Reasons for those later germinating ones might have to do with seed depth, quality of the endosperm, thickness of the seed coat and other variables.

And when I say a seed is a seed I'm talking about DNA content and nothing more.

So for me precocity of germination is a non-issue.

Carolyn

"Who is good and who isn't"

This is my (current) response to that question. I would like to be more positive but with respect to this outfit I don't believe I can.

I've gone back and looked at my tray again and, yes, the runts are still runts and the early emergers are still the strongest. Of all the Tomatofest seeds I put in there is probably ony one that I will bother to plant out and that is a single German Johnson that is stronger than the other five.

I'm eliminating Tomatofest from consideration for any of my future seed purchases and here's why. I think Gary Ibsen has got it wrong. I've looked at another forum (davesgarden) to see some reviews and a curious dichotomy pops out. Lots of the reviews are very positive but some seem to be from those who have not planted yet. They focus on things such as good customer service, prompt arrival of orders, enthusiasm, website, number of varieties, etc. Then there are a couple of reviews concerning across the board poor germination rates such as I have experienced.

It's a matter of choice, of course, but I think he's principally running a festival and allowing seed quality to languish. I value the other characteristics too (above) but they don't put tomatoes on my table. Apparently, the proceeds of seed sales support running of the festival, which is nice, but the highest price and the worst quality don't help those of us who will never attend. Gary seems to be very proud of the fact that he maintains a stock of 550 varieties. I'm less impressed when I find that 5 of his 6 varieties that I planted don't do well at all.

There, I could have shut my mouth and let it ride but the "Who is good" question came up again and that is my two cents. I'm listening to Carolyn more after this. Baker Creek gets another chance.

** "precocity of germination is a non-issue" **

Thanks again, Carolyn. That's just the type of outlook I was hoping for and factors I hadn't considered.

Mala 4/12 - I didn't and wouldn't either. Just a hypothetical example I made up.

what commercial supplier of heirloom seeds would you recommend?

****

My experience is not as a customer b'c I think I've only purchased less than 30 packs of seed since maybe 1982, LOL, after I moved back East from teaching in Denver at the Med School, and back then, roughly before 1990 it was Seeds Blum and Gleckers and both are out of business, although I've been up close and personal with tomatoes since I was a kid back on the farm and I'll be 69 in June. Triple Sigh. But I've been posting online about tomatoes since 1989 and seen lots of feedback and I do know the owners of most of the more common seed sources.

And most helpful was several years ago when here at GW I started Wrong varieties threads and there was a tremendous amount of feedback.

And I continue to monitor these issues at the four places where I do read/post.

There are several factors that go into choosing commercial sources and they include seeds that are true, seed age/viability, quality of information given about varieties, kinds of varieties offered, service, and seed prices, to name a few.

it really does bother me when with any given variety when source A charges $2 for a pack of 30 while source B charges $4, all other factors being somewhat equal.

And it really does bother me as well when some folks are attracted to a slick website and ignore what's really important as to all the variables I mentioned above.

And no source selling OP varieties has a perfect record on seed purity just b'c of the nature of OP seed production.

I also don't think it's critical that a site have pictures of varieties although it's fine if they do.

With those caveats I'd suggest the following, somewhat in order:

Tomatogrowers.com ( Linda Sapp)
SandhillPreservation.com ( Glenn and Linda Drowns)
Victoryseeds.com ( Mike Dunton)
SSE Public catalog varieties ( seedsavers.org) (Aaron Whaley)
Marianne Jones at Mariseeds.com
Baker Creek, (rareseeds.com) ( Jere Gettle)
Heirloom seeds ( in PA, heirloomseeds.com) ( Tom Hauch)

And yes I do know all of the folks mentioned above and have interacted with all of them in one way or another, whether it's sending them varieties for trial or for some as fellow SSE members of yore, etc)

And with those above there are close to a couple of thousand varieties available.

If anyone wants to go beyond the more commonly offered varieties they should consider joining SSE, not just for requesting seeds from listed SSE members, and there's often a problem there in seed purity so folks should darn well know how to rogue out wrong plants and that comes solely from experience, from the Yearbook where about 4000 varieties are offered, but to help SSE with their mission of seed preservation in general. Lousy run on sentence but I'm sure you get my drift. ( smile)

Every one of the above has had problems at one time or another with wrong varieties and/or low germinating seed, except for Sandhill where no seed sold is older than 2 years old, which to me is quite remarkable since Glenn lists about 400 varieties.

And I should say that of late Totally Tomatoes has done a much better job but some wrong descriptions still bother me a lot. But they (Jungs) inherited blurbs from the previous owner Wayne Hilton and there are still lots of errors but it looks like most of the seeds are fine these days.

I know Gary Ibsen at Tomatofest very well but I do have problems with seed prices there. Yes, I know he sells only organic seed but to me organicness is gained in how one GROWS the plants re edible fruits, not with organic seed per se which to me is more of a personal philosophy statement. Just my personal opinion. But to each his or her own.

I'm hearing some good things about Skyfire seeds but don't know them as well.

And for sure there are others but you asked me which ones I'd suggest to others as sources to maybe start with and right now I've listed those above.

Finally, I've said it before and I'll say it again, each person should know the basic traits of every variety they sow seeds for BEFORE they sow the seeds. And that means plant habit, ind or det, leaf form, PL or RL, fruit color and size and shape. That's the ONLY way that a person will know if the variety they have is correct and it sure would stop a lot of wrong varieties from being traded, which happens quite a bit. Of course the possibility of cross pollination should also be recognized and there's an excellent FAQ on that here at GW, just click on the FAQ at the top of the page and scroll down.

Carolyn, who has also decided to stay positive and NOT list the sources she would NOT recommend to others. Sigh.

Where's the debate? No one started a debate ... just exchanging information. Jeeze.
-----------
The back-and-forth nature of the conversation signified a bit of a debate to me - not in a negative way, but just taking things a bit off topic from the original question, which wasn't my intention. I also wasn't trying/wanting to come across as a know-it-all with regards to word etymology, in English or otherwise, or to say that Andrei was wrong in his translation. But being a native english speaker who lived in Russia/Ukraine for several years, and working with many international clients and seeing how they translate certain things into English that aren't quite correct (Indian clients translating "to take in" in a figurative sense to "imbibe" is a popular one).....my point was just to give an alternate translation for this partiular tomato variety. Shrug. Take it as you will.

Though I personally think everyone should just stick to Malakhitovskaya Shkatulka anyway. It's not as hard as it looks. ;-)

Carolyn,

Touche!

Sneezer2

Sorry about your poor germination rates and the runts that have showed up for you. I have planted all these varieties from same seed stock for my crop this year and had 90% germination... and no runts.

Clint Eastwood's Rowdy Red - Continues to be one of my best performers with many delighted customers. I suggest not giving it up so easily to the trash but try again and and enjoy the harvest.

Regarding your German Johnson, Green Zebra, Persimmon and Chadwick Cherry, this is the first I've heard of such poor results. I'm thinking there are other factors at work that are messing with your seedlings beyond your suspicions that your problems lie in the seeds. FYI, we do not send out old seed. I grow our varieties each year for new seed stock.

In any case, your success is my primary interest. You may recall that I guarantee all of TomatoFest seeds. Regardless of the cause of your problems I've always responded quickly with sending replacement seeds for another try. When this kind of difficulty and resolve has occurred in the past, a note of success and appreciation has often followed. This opportunity is made easier if I am contacted directly versus indirectly hearing of your difficulty as a complaint on a posting to others.

I remain more than willing to send you all the seeds that you had problems with, at no cost, so you may try again. However, I suggest trying another seed starting medium. Are you willing? You know how to reach me. Wishing you a bountiful harvest.