Both. Kinda like many other "varieties."

I was hoping this was the PL German Johnson. I wanted to do a PL showdown this year. Started German Johnson, Marianna's Peace, Pruden's Purple, Brandywine Sudduth, and Brandy Boy. Oh well, it's a large pink...I'll probably like it regardless of leaf type, but I have a fondness for PL.

The correct German Johnson is RL.

Good enough. I have one saying both are correct, and one says RL is correct. Maybe I should ask which is the most widely accepted or recognized? My guess is RL.

Think a minute folks ...

How can anyone say that potato leaf or regular leaf is the "correct" leaf form for a heirloom variety that was by definition grown in relative isolation over several generations before it came into common circulation amongst the tomato cultists?

I'd venture to say that many old Appalachian tomato varieties were grown for generations with no one taking any particular notice of the details of leaf form. Rather those tomatoes were just "that big pink tomato" or "that red and yellow striped tomato" that grandpa or grandma used to grow and we all loved. "He called it Hillbilly" or "she called it German Johnson." Whatever.

But somehow the first time such an old heirloom gets listed in the Seed Savers Exchange Yearbook ... KERBLOOEY!!! ... the "CORRECT" leaf form is potato leaf or regular leaf. Well, Hogwash!!!

I didn't know it came in PL or RL. I bought some from TGS last year
and they happen to be PL. I've read somewhere that the RL is suppose
to be original one or better one. If you want a few seeds, I can send
you some.

It's not really a huge deal to me what the leaf type is...I was more concerned that what I actually have is German Johnson. For some reason I was expecting PL, but now that I know RL is common, then indeed, it probably is GJ. So, if we assume both are correct, I am interested in which is more common or widely recognized, PL or RL? Just means one less variety in the PL showdown...that all! lol On another interesting note(interesting to me, anyway), I sowed 3 Aker's West Virginia seed from Sandhill. 2 came up RL and one PL. I'm certain there was no mix up with the seed on my part. I pulled the PL seedling as I know(or think I know) AWV isn't PL. Would have been neat to grow it out and see what became of it, but I already have too many plants as it is.

Roper, thanks for the offer. Very generous of you, but as long as I have German Johnson, regardless of leaf type, I'm ok with it.

Think a minute folks ...

****

OK Bill, I thought. LOL

And while I agree with you when referencing what you call the "old" heirlooms, and I don't think I really know how to distinguish an older from newer heirloom other than when it first bcame available to others outside of a family, I still think that for most, we've never had the proliferation of PL variants of varieties as there is currently.

Above an Aker's West Virginia PL from Sandhill was mentioned. At this point it isn't known if that's a stray seed or is identical to Aker's except for leaf form.

Fact is, there already is a PL Aker's already in distribution as you know, and I have no idea to what extent it's the same as the original and the orignal is known via seeds to Craig LeHoullier from Carl Aker, and it's RL.

If I know the source of a particular variety and get a history on it that's a good one, I then know what the original should be and I could list many like that that I've either listed in the SSE YEarbook or sent to friends.

So I, unlike you, don't consider SSE listings hogwash. Are all to be believed? Not these days when so many variants are being listed and several are changing variety names for whatever reason, but I still don't consider the YEarbook hogwash, nor do I consider it the "bible" of always the correct info about some varieties.

When my brother moved to NC a few years ago he said that a man down the road was growing one of those two toned things, which I interpreted to be a gold/red bicolor and I asked him if it had a name. Of course it didn't, it's just what that family had grown for years.

So I said no, I really wasn't interested. But I could have said sure, grown it out, and called it Carolyn Candystripe, b/c fact is the gold/red bicolors in the SE are often just called candystripes by almost all who grow them. So attach a name to a bicolor and many think it's a different variety, which I don't agree with.

Plant out 100 large pink fruited PL's with no name ID, then go trough them and try to ID them. it can't be done. When and if a variety becomes seperated from it's original name it's pretty much a lost cause as to IDing.

So I still maintain that with a good history for a variety the original traits should be recognized and accepted.

Since different genetic mechanisms can give rise to PL variants that CAN and DO show differences from the original I simply can't equate a PL variant with an original RL at the outset. THe only way that differences can be documented is by DNA analysis, which isn't feasible at this time.

I've seen many folks try to compare Spudakee and Cherokee Purple Potato Leaf to Cherokee Purple and some say the first two are the same as CP, some say the first two are different from each other, and, well, there's no way to delete the variables inherent in growing them in different geographic areas, weather in a single growing season, amendments used, seed source and finally, human perception.

Do you remember when Dorothy used to psot here at GW and she offered up her website where we could put links to resources since stickies don't happen here? Well, she was growing a variety that was RL. She got a PL variant and named it Dot's Delight. At the time all of us knew what that original variety was b'c she told us, but neither Craig nor I can remember it. So Dot's Delight is a PL variant of a known variety but no one now knows what that variety was. And that's happened with more that the Dot's Delight situation I'm sure.

Carolyn, and now to watch tennis which takes a higher priority over tomatoes any time with her. LOL

"So I, unlike you, don't consider SSE listings hogwash."
---------------------------------------------------------

I didn't say that, Carolyn.

I said that just because a variety first makes its appearance in SSE Yearbook as regular leaf or potato leaf doesn't make that the officially "correct" leaf form for that variety.

However, for those who consider SSE Yearbook listings to set precedence, the potato leaf version of German Johnson was listed in the 1987 Yearbook by Benny Michitti of Carrollton, Virginia. And I believe the regular leaf version was first listed in a more recent Yearbook.

I'm going by what the late Chuck Wyatt said in the late 1990's:

German Johnson - 80 Days - Gigantic indet. reg. leaf plant with huge, pink, beefsteak type fruit, averaging over 1#; flavor and texture are excellent, an absolutely rampant plant that bears all season. This is the true "German Johnson-", and is not a potato leaf; One of the four parent lines of "Radiator Charlie's Mortgage Lifter"

I also believe FEDCO may have made a change in the seed they sell a few years back, perhaps admitting that the PL was wrong, replacing it with this:

4069GJ German Johnson Tomato ECO (80 days) Open-pollinated. Ind. An old heirloom probably from Virginia or North Carolina. This large regular-leaf plant, one of the parents of Mortgage Lifter, is known for its copious yields of pink meaty fruits, mild but with more than a touch of sweetness. They often exceed 1 lb.

That's what I'm sticking to!

I didn't say that, Carolyn.

I said that just because a variety first makes its appearance in SSE Yearbook as regular leaf or potato leaf doesn't make that the officially "correct" leaf form for that variety.

****

OK, but I say that if I get a variety directly from a family member for a variety and it's been only grown within the family until I get it then I consider the leaf from to be the correct one. And I don't list anything unless I run it by the person from whom I got the variety in the first place. But that's me and how I handle things and I certainly can't speako for others.

Bill, I too was looking in some past YEarbooks to see what I could find and did see the listing you note from the 1987 one. The 1986 was the last year where tomatoes were put into color classes. Before that everything was listed by state and within state alphabetically by member and within the blurb for each member everything they have is listed, not just tomatoes. And I find it very very difficult to find anything. And when I do the leaf form is rarely mentioned.

Mark, I think the first time Chuck listed GJ was in the 1995 Yearbook and let me just post a bit from those who listed GJ in 1995, and if you look at his site now you'll also see a PL being listed, right underneath the RL;

IA, no leaf form noted, source was Buist Seeds

IL, PL, source was Totally tomatoes

MD ( Chuck), RL, source was Shumways in 93 and Wayne Hilton who started Shumways by buying the company name for $2000, went to SSE members to get varieties b'c no stock came with the purchase.

NM, PL, source was another SSE member in 1986

OH, no leaf form noted

VA, PL, source was Wyatt-Quarles seed CO in 1990

So how do we factor in the various commercial sources that folks used?

Two years earlier, in the '93

MI, no leaf form noted

NC, RL, from Catawba Farmers Market in 1992

OH, no leaf form noted

WV, no info at all, just said from a person whose location was not noted.

Mark, Chuck didn't get GJ from his southern family relatives, he got it from Shumways who no doubt got it from an SSE member, and I've tried to indicate even with the listings above that different folks were listing both PL and RL forms of the variety.

How I wish I could find that comment about the PL and RL forms both being grown, but in different areas of the south.

There are a couple of older SSE members from the south who still list in the SSE YEarbooks and I could contact them. But is this ever going to be settled to anyones satisfaction? I don't think so.

I just spent an hour, missing my tennis, looking at links for history of German Johnson and just as many folks, I didn't really count, offer PL or RL forms at different sites online.

But I ran across one that I have to post:

German Johnson Tomato...came to America in 1860...via the German Settlers in North Carolina, it is a long time local favorite in NC...The seeds were brought here by the Johnson family. In those days it was illegal to bring seeds to the new world, they were smuggled into the county in the hems the settlers dresses and false bottoms in their shoes.....this particular variety of tomato is becoming a little scarce, because they were renamed by seed companies, when they claimed the seed stock. I am the proud owner of the seeds that were handed down, from the original farm in Ashe County NC, where they were 1st grown....

*****

THis is the same person who posted that she had the original Cherokee Purple from a friend of a friend who got it from an old Cherokee woman who lives in a Cherokee Community in the area. OK, so I got some seeds and sent some to Craig. And then she said how PRIMITIVE looking they were and described double blossoms as though they were unique, well I think you get the picture.

So this lady has both the original German Johnson seeds as well as the original Cherokee Purple seeds.( smile) I'll be growing her CP as will Craig, and they darn well better be at least RL. LOL She got her seeds from a neighbor who called them Purple Cherokee and when I pointed out that a wholsale company was responsible for inverting the name, which is true, I could tell the seeds were purchased. Oh well, I won't bore you with this story.

Carolyn

Ask for Craig to comment, I think I remember some story of GJ and North Carolina, maybe the farmers market he uses.

"I'm going by what the late Chuck Wyatt said in the late 1990's ..." [Mark]

"Mark, Chuck didn't get GJ from his southern family relatives, he got it from Shumways who no doubt got it from an SSE member, and I've tried to indicate even with the listings above that different folks were listing both PL and RL forms of the variety." [Carolyn]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have a little manila coin envelope I bought from Chuck Wyatt's seed vending Web site several years ago. This is one of those "discount" varieties he used to sell for 50 cents a pack and just put some initials "to help me remember what variety" was in the packet. Anyone else ever buy those 50c seeds from Mr. Wyatt?

Anyway, this particular packet is marked GJPL ... that's it. Now when I grew them, I got a potato leaf vine with large, sweet, pink tomatoes. Anybody want to venture a guess as to what Mr. Wyatt may have been trying to "remind himself" what variety he marked GJPL?

Still got a few of those seeds in that packet. They're pretty old now, probably over 10 years old. But if anyone wants to compare them to GJRL, gimme a shout.

Those initials packs I thought were either screwups, mixed mistakes, or older seed, that came later in his life or when his neighbor Donna took over the business. There were many varieties, likew RBW (Red Brandywine?), RIE (Riesentraube?), BRI (Brianna?), AGP (Aunt Ginny's Purple), AKW (Aker's West Virginia), etc.

If you look at the __ALL.jpg link on MyPage, you will see the incorrect Red Brandywine and it was RL. Same with many others. Lynnwood sounded great but looked like a tube/carton tomato. You will also see some other incorrect leaf type maters from him, like Watermelon Beefsteak, Burgundy Traveler, WinsAll, etc. (all were PL.) Of course, this may openup the debate that he could be wrong on other varieties too, regarding leaf types. However, I think that it only would lend MORE credibility that he stuck his neck out adamantly describing German Johnson as RL.

Hey, look. I was just answering the original question the most honest way I could. Okay?

Really it's doesn't mean squat to me. I don't grow German Johnson and haven't except for that one time. Don't plan on it any time soon.

So, having answered the original question best I could and engaged in a bit of friendly debate. I'm done. Carry on.

Wow....didn't know I was opening up such a big can of worms! LOL

Hoosier....what didn't you like about that particular GJ(PL) that convinced you not to grow it again?

Mark, I already did ask Craig about it. We're in contact b'c he's growing all my plants for me this year and shipping them up here. And Lee and Shoe and Mel are doing most of the seed production.

He just sent up the latest germination report so I don't know if he's going to comment or not.

Mark if Chuck got a GJRL from Shumways, that's what he got, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's THE correct leaf form seeing as how he got it from Shumways and Hilton probably got it from an SSE member and as I pointed out above, even in the early 90's folks were listing both RL and PL forms.

Chuck died in June of 2002 and for several years before that he had made lots of mistakes with seeds b'c of his medical condition. He had bought lots of stuff off the shelf from Seeds by Design and that's where he got so many wrong PL's including the wrong PL Red Brandywine. Joyce thought she could return the seed but that couldn't be done.

It was Donna who started putting those abbreviations in the listings to remind herself of what should go there even though she didn't have the seed.

Quite frankly I've often wondered how old some of the seeds she lists are re germination these days b'c many of them go back to about 10 yo and for many of them there is no commercial source for her to restock. You might remember that Joyce asked me to work with Donna b'c she'd never even grown a tomato plant, her job with Chuck was packing tomato seed. I tried for a while but it jsut didn't work out. I do know that someone about two years ago bought 10 varieties and got zero germination on 9, told Donna that and Donna offered to send her back the same seed. It wasn't good.

Finally, I've never grown German Johnson, don't intend to, so it's been fun while it lasted folks but I'm with Bill, as in I'm out of here. LOL If I hear anything back from Craig I will post it.

Carolyn

Yeah all these PL vs. RL great debates are cans of worms.

Some folks expect there to be a definitive answer, carved in stone somewhere. Why I don't know why when so much of it is word-of-mouth, notes written in great grandpa's chicken scratching on the wall of the kitchen, or semi-documented legends.

Shoot most folks can't even trace their own family tree with any degree of certainty so why would they expect to be able to do it for their tomato plant. Once we accept that no definitive answer exists then the issue becomes moot.

FWIW - This will be my 3nd year and last for 3 German Johnson plants unless it improves drastically over the past 2 years. It is indeed a huge rampant plant but with very low production. A few pink fruit, they are large and taste good (not great). And it has very little disease or pest tolerance IME, hates our high humidity and heat, and sucumbs when all around it are doing fine. Mine are RL for what that is worth.

So just grow it and don't worry about what kind of leaves it has. Now find a variety that is either leafed vs. non-leafed and that would be worth debating. ;)

Dave

We kinda have that already Dave, it's called Stick! lol

Ahhh! Good old Stick. I'd forgotten all about it. Thanks for the reminder. LOL

Dave

If I hear anything back from Craig I will post it.

*****

...is what I posted above and I did hear back from him today.

Craig lives in Raleigh, NC. He said that when the locals bring plants to the Farmer's Market to sell that they bring RL plants and that he thinks the PL GJ was a "later" development.

He moved from PA to NC maybe 15-20 years ago, I didn't check, but by this time knows most of the local lore on tomatoes that are grown there since for many years now he's been selling tomato plants at the Raleigh Farmer's Market.

So that's the situation in the Raleigh area of NC and I can't speak to elsewhere in the south where German Johnson is grown.

Carolyn