Other than the F3 tolerance I don't see much difference between what you're mentioning and Maxifort.

Recently I was asked to do some background checking on grafting and I was able to talk to a professional hybridizer who has used both Maxifort and Beaufort in several US locations, and he came to the conclusion that using something like Celebrity as a root stock did just as well.

There really is no tomato that is totally resistant to ANY disease and the Tomato industry changed the word from resistance to tolerance after several companies were sued by large commercial farmers b'c their tomatoes came down with the diseases that the varieties were supposed to be "resistant" to.

The most common diseases of tomatoes are the foliage diseases and with a couple of exceptions that are of no use to the home gardener there are no varieties that are tolerant to the foliage diseases.

And the most that systemic tolerances to the more common diseases give is a week or two more growing time which is of use to commercial farmers since they determine harvest with Brix measurements and that extra time helps reach the Brix levels they look for.

As for the systemic diseases, Fusarium race 3, the major difference I see between Maxifort and Takii's rootstock seeds, and very few places in the US have problems with race 3. Certain areas in CA, FL and in the NC, SC areas but races 1 and 2 are the most common. For that F3 tolerance to be meaningful a tomato grower would have to know what race(s) are in their area.

And the nematode tolerance is only a help in some areas where the southern RKN's are present which are areas in the south and CA and FL and along the Gulf coast where the ground doesn't freeze and the soils are primarily sandy, b'c the RKN's move from sand grain to sandgrain via the water shell of the grains and that leads to the build up of destructive RKN populations.

Tobacco Mosaic Virus (TMV) is no longer a significant problem in the US and is found primarily by direct contact in large greenhouse operations. Tobacco grown in the US for about 20 years now has been TMV tolerant, but Turkish tobaccos are still cause for concern.

I haven't priced the cost of Maxifort or Beaufort seeds lately so I don't know how they would compare with Takii's seeds. But Celebrity F1 seeds are cheap in comparison.

The other thing this hybridizer told me was that Beaufort is best for outside plants and Maxifort for greenhouse plants and that has to do primarily with plant size and vigor.

Corky root, for example, is primarily a problem with greehouse grown tomatoes, so he tells me, as did a couple of sites I checked out via Google.

I'm not sure why you suggested that only advanced gardeners should try grafting b'c I know of several folks who just went right at it, with mixed results, and instructions for how to do the grafting in available online at several sites.
It's the old adage; practive makes perfect, if ever anything with tomatoes is perfect. LOL

Grafted plants are also popular in Australia and there are quite a few Aussies who post where I do and they say it's just a way to increase the cost of plants when compared with the claims for increased tolerance which most of them don't see. ( Smile)

Anyway, I thought I'd just chime in and suggest some alternatives and options to what you've posted about.

Carolyn

arizsun, If you have PayPal count me in. ami

carolyn

Why Celebrity as a rootstock? What is Celebrity "tolerant to" that would benefit other tomatoes?

(Just curious, not going to try grafting myself.)

Anney, Celebrity in an F1 hybrid with tolerances for:

Verticillium
races 1 and 2 of Fusarium
Nematodes ( southern)
TMV ( tobacco Mosaic Virus
Alternaria

And since Corky Root is primarily a problem with tomatoes grown in greenhouses or seedlings of, it would be harder to see its usefulness for outside growing.

I forgot to mention above that the Takii one also had tolerance to Bacterial Wilt and folks who grow tomatoes in tropical to sub tropical areas, aka gardening zones, and know that Bacterial Wilt ( and recently it's even shoed up from time to time here in NYS) can be a problem in their area might benefit from that just as the folks who have known race 3 Fusarium problems might benefit from the takii rootstock in terms of getting a bit more growth in the season due to those tolerances.

The hybridizer I spoke with said they had tested Celebrity but there are other well known hybrids that have the same tolerances as noted by their variety names, as can be seen if one just looks at the TGS website/catalog, for instance.

Big Beef is also VFFNTA, for instance.

I don't have any strong poition here one way or the other, but what I have learned posting online about tomatoes since about 1989 is that a lot of folks think that all the diseases they see mentioned can be found anywhere, and that isn't true/

For the most part systemic diseases are regionalized as I indicated above and I thought it would be helpful for those who didn't realize that that my indicating that might help.

The most common tomato diseases, worldwide, are the foliage diseases and with the exceptions I mentioned above there are no known varieties tolerant to those.

In addition, I think that most folks equate the word resistance with a variety being totally resistant, as in it can get never get the disease it's resistant to when actually many folks think that tolerance is a better word to use to indicate that depending on lots of variables such as weather and soil conditions, etc., varieties supposedly resistant, read tolerant, can come down with disease.

How many times have we seen someone say something like....the leaves on my plants are turning yellow and wilting and turning crispy, so what disease do they have and what can I do about it. And if that person is in ME or NH it's probably not Fusarium, although the person might have mentioned that the symptoms he or she looked at at a disease site suggested Fusarium.

Again, all I've tried to do is to indicate that tolerances don't mean anything unless one grows in an area where those diseases are known to be present and that resistance does not mean that a variety won't succumb to a specific disease as I indicated above.

I'm not negative about grafting and using a rootstock other than the more common ones used, rather, I've been trying to point out the similarities as well as the differences between Maxifort, Beaufort and the Takii one that might make someone choose one over the other based on what the disease pressures are where they live.

I hope this helps.

Carolyn

carolyn137
that's a great post!
And it's quite interesting. Maybe it is true that seed companies selling nothing but normal hybrid as rootstock seeds and charging $$$.

I lost all the tomatoes last year for B. Wilt. If there's some hybrid seeds which is "resistant," I will for sure try to do grafting.

I did a Google search for the major tomato diseases in Arizona, b'c I assumed your user name indicated that's where you garden, and I didn't find Bacterial Wilt to be listed as one of the systemic diseases.

You might want to check out the following to try and match what symptoms your plants had b'c there are many systemic diseases that are characterized by wilting of foliage.

http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/publications/tomatoproblemsolver/

Hope that helps.

You might also want to call your local Extensiono Service to find out what the most common systemic ( as opposed to foliage) diseases characterized by wilting might be found in your local area.

Carolyn

Here is a link that might be useful: Arizona Systemic Tomato Diseases

The very best Japanese produced rootstock seed by far is called He-Man, and is used mainly in the majority of European countries like Greece-Holland-Spain etc,and is resistant to just about everything known,it also gives up to 45 percent more fruit per plant as a result of grafting, the seeds are available in certain French,Dutch, and UK seed houses for lots of fifty seeds or less, up to a hundred seeds per pack,and are around $27.00 for fifty seeds.

There really is no tomato that is totally resistant to ANY disease and the Tomato industry changed the word from resistance to tolerance after several companies were sued by large commercial farmers b'c their tomatoes came down with the diseases that the varieties were supposed to be "resistant" to.

The seed companies still list resistance. I have replied several times before that they still do so and linked to several current seed company sites where the companies list resistant vs tolerant (usually the difference being whether or not the resistance is homozygous or heterzygous in that line).

In additon to disease resistance, another reason to consider selected rootstocks is their potential for greater root mass growth which can increase water and nutirent uptake.

One more question about grafting tomatoes. This is what one site claims:

Producers have started grafting heirloom tomatoes onto disease resistant rootstocks not only addressing the disease problem, but also increasing yield.

Increasing yield?

Is this increased yield of the scion (the plant whose fruits you want to harvest) unrelated to less disease of the rootstock or is an increased yield characteristic also supplied by the rootstock (which I assume would have to have a greater yield than the scion)?

Just what characteristics of the rootstock enter the scion besides disease tolerance? Anything?

Here is a link that might be useful: Grafting Tomatoes

The yield increase most likely comes from increased vigor of the rootstock variety (increasaed root biomass - more roots can support more shoots) and reduced stress from disease and/or abiotic stressors.

Here is a table which also has a vigor rating from
Grafting for Disease Resistance in Heirloom Tomatoes - North Carolina Cooperative Extension

{{gwi:1304295}}

Here is a visual field example of the difference in vigor from another NCSU source
History and Techniques of Tomato Grafting {{gwi:1304296}}

One thing I read today recommended eggplant root stock.

The seed companies still list resistance. I have replied several times before that they still do so and linked to several current seed company sites where the companies list resistant vs tolerant (usually the difference being whether or not the resistance is homozygous or heterzygous in that line).

****

Yes, I know the seed companies still refer primarily to resistance, but I think it's larger concern when talking about law suits and the Tomato Industry itself beinginvolved in those law suits, and to be honest I don't know without Googling what the Tomato Industry really means. I read about the change from resistance to tolerance after those law suits.

(In additon to disease resistance, another reason to consider selected rootstocks is their potential for greater root mass growth which can increase water and nutirent uptake.)

Yes, Dr F, with whom I spoke with mentioned the same thing and in his experience doing trials at several locations in the US said, as I posted above, that he and his team found Maxifort to be better for greenhouse grown plants and Beaufort for outside plants.

Carolyn

A little off topic but here are definitions, taken from a seed company's tomato seed info flier, of the terms used

Immunity: not subject to attack or infection by a specified pest or pathogen.

Resistance: the ability of a plant variety to restrict the growth and development of a specified pest or pathogen and/or the damage they cause when compared to susceptible plant varieties under similar environmental conditions and pest or pathogen pressure. Resistant varieties may exhibit some disease symptoms or damage under heavy pest or pathogen pressure.

Two levels of resistance are defined:

i. high resistance (HR): plant varieties that highly restrict the growth and development of the specified pest or pathogen under normal pest or pathogen pressure when compared to susceptible varieties. These plant varieties may, however, exhibit some symptoms or damage under heavy pest or pathogen pressure.

ii. intermediate resistance (IR): plant varieties that restrict the growth and development of the specified pest or pathogen, but may exhibit a greater range of symptoms or damage compared to high resistant varieties. Intermediate resistant plant varieties will still show less severe symptoms or damage than susceptible plant varieties when grown under similar environmental conditions and/or pest or pathogen pressure.

Susceptibility: the inability of a plant variety to restrict the growth and development of a specified pest or
pathogen.

carolyn137:I bought a tomato plant couple of years ago which brought in BW to my garden. I did solarization but it comes back every year. might not on the list you posted.

There's a lot of "resistance" strength differences between rootstocks. Some are really resistant and some are so-so. Someone thought Maxifort is almost same as Celebrity doesn't mean Greenguard is almost same as Celebrity.

Comparing Maxifort's data, I have a feeling it is 1st generation rootstock from Japan meaning, released 2-3 years ago. Greenguard is the latest release, the resistance to disease is really higher than others according to the data.

mickyfinn6777: the thing is, most of the rootstock seeds might be born in Japan but when distributor import them to other countries, they re-name it. That's my guess. There's no He-Man rootstock in Japan nor Maxifort. But then, there are many companies releasing rootstocks.

Well, I was wanting to do the a group-buy but this post turned into discussion. I already have 2nd generation rootstock planted and wanted to do the comparison between this and Greenguard. You never know until you try it in YOUR OWN garden.

If any one is interested in (except for miesenbacher 7) please email me rather than posting on this thread. Thank you.