I think the first indication is if the seedlings come out as Potato Leaf. From what I understand, the Rad Brandywine Landis strain is Regular Leaf.

The second would be getting pink fruit instead of red.

Other than that, all you can do is check out your seed source as best you can.

Oh boy!
This is important to me too.
After research, I have come up with this:
PL.. not brandywine red !!!
Pink..not brandywine red !!!
RL...two choices, one that is and one that isn't. If it is landis. probable is.
TGS sells three under the brandywine red name.
I am as mixed up as most so don't yell at me..I just though that this might just help a bit.
Any one know which one Victory seed sells?

Victory Seeds should be selling true Red Brandywine. Mike originally had some PL thing, but dumped it.

There are long threads here about Red Brandywine but I'll try to be short in making some comments.

The original true Red Brandywine is RL with medium sized RED fruits. Tom Hauch at Heirloom Seeds was the first to get it out of the SSE YEarbook. He sent seeds to Steve Miller at the Landis Museum and it was Steve who got the background info that it was grown in Chester Co, PA by the Amish in about 1885.

it's the only one of the brandywines to be documented as being Amish in origin.

Tom sells true RB at his heirloomseeds website and I've grown his against mine and they are identical. He calls it his signature tomato variety.

Glenn at Sandhill also sells the correct Red Brandywine.

Originally Linda at TGS got two wrong RB's, both from Seeds by Design in CA, a wholesale place, one is PL and one is RL and NEITHER of them is true RB. She continues to list them b'c many folks like tham. Linda is a good friend and for years I've tried to get her to call them something else, but what is, is.

Knowing that what she listed was NOT RB she went out and got true Red Brandywine from the Landis Museum, I'm not sure why that source, but it should be true if the original seed that Tom Hauch sent there remains true. Linda called it a strain, but that's not correct, there are no strains of Red Brandywine.

Again, there are lots of threads here about RB, but I think I've covered the basics.

So I know the RB at Sandhill and Heirloom seeds is correct and the Landis one at TGS also, and I know there are many other places tha might well have true RB as well, but the blurb should read RED fruits and RL foliage.

Most of the other threads I referred to usually start asking how a person knows they have the Sudduth strain of Brandywine, NOT Red Brandywine, but lets not discuss Brandywine here b'c again, there are TONS of thread here about that one. LOL

Have I answered most of the questions about Red Brandywine? If not, please just ask here in this thread which we're keeping to Red Bandywine, aren't we. ( smile)

Carolyn, repeating that she has NOT gone to any seed sites to confirm that they offer true RB. Some folks who sell seeds really know their varieties, and some don't. So could you get a wrong RB from some seed site? Sure, just like you could for any other variety but please remember that RB is red fruited and RL.

Thanks Carolyn. I did not intend to pull you chain, or maybe I did---big grin. I just got tired of re-reading 96 threads, and you condensed it nicely for us.
I will assume that "landis" is as true as you can get RB.
I now have 3 RBs and 4 brandywine to try. When I find the one I like I think I will call it "deadhorse creek" or some thing like that and market it--anything but brandywine!
Kennp, whose is much older than you, but who is bragging?

I'd have to check to make sure, but I think I got RB-Landis seeds from Seed Savers Exhange public catalog last year and those made great plants and nice tomatoes perfectly matching the standard description.

Is the default answer, If it's good it's real. :)

It is as far as I am concerned and honestly, except from a purely genetics point of view I'm not sure why such a big deal is made about this particular one. It isn't as if there aren't other varieties that share the same name but have different characteristics - Rutgers comes to mind as does Arkansas Traveler to name just a couple. Perhaps it is just that it is treading on the "Brandywine" name which many consider sacred. ;)

I've grown both and both are identical in fruit appearance and flavor - only the leaves differ. And both are quite good IMO regardless of what they are called so focus on the quality rather than the label.

Dave

Well as long as Dave is taking us down an off-variety but similar trait trail ...

I grew Druzba, also from SSE public catalog, right next to the RB-Landis plants and other than the RB vines being much stockier, the fruit of those two varieties were nearly indistinguishable from one another.

the fruit of those two varieties were nearly indistinguishable from one another.

I would suspect that one or the other or both are not the correct varieties. Druzba has a rather distinctive form that is more rounded and Red Brandywine has a slightly more flattened shape with just a tad more fluting on the shoulders.

DarJones

I'd have to grow them again and take a closer look. The Druzba were maybe a bit taller in longitude, but not really much difference. I would have had a hard time sorting them out if I put them all in the same basket. Gotta admit, though, my memory is worse than my eyesight.

When someone is asking for pretty much round red fruited varieties that have great taste I usually list:

Druzba
Red Brandywine
Break O Day
Bulgarian #7
Box Car Willie ( not an heirloom, bred by Joe Bratka's dad

Darrel, I got my Red Brandywine from an SSE member back in about 1992 and it was perfectly smooth, yes slightly oblate, and so is the one that Tom Hauch offers.

To the best of my memory and of course like Hoosier I'll qualify that memory. LOL

If it weren't for Seeds by Design in CA spreading RL and PL NOT RB's in the US there wouldn't be the problem we see now. They also distributed seeds for Lillian's Yellow Heirloom that were ridiculous.

How true seeds are from any one place depends on the way they obtain their seeds. Some produce their own, some subcontract out and some buy wholesale off the shelf and some do a combo of those methods.

Secondarily it also depends on how a retailer grows their tomatoes, once having recieved true seeds, in terms of possible crosses, etc.

For several years I did a wrong varieties thread here and the feedback was very interesting. One thing I found out was that many folks who buy seed and it's an offtype don't feel comfortable reporting that fact. So I had offered to report back to the owners those offtypes, But then that annoyed a couple of them who said they wanted the person who had the problem to contact them directly so they could confirm that the seeds came from them.

The one owner told me that it wasn't uncommon for some to THINK he or she got seeds from him, but their records showed they hadn't. And I can understand that since there are several retail places with similar names or were at that time.

Carolyn

I can understand that, Carolyn. Unless I keep the empty package or keep a log, it's likely I'll say I bought a particular variety from SSE when actually I got it from TGS or vice verse. Usually I remember exactly which ones came from Victory because I use them for certain types. But SSE and TGS, I could easily get their varieities mixed up in my memory.

But then I don't get all wound up and bent outta shape over wrong seed cuz that's just gonna happen every now and then. And it's happened with every company I've bought seeds from at least once. And some can be grower error as easily or more easily than vendor error or cross pollination. It's just gonna happen ... like it or not.

But yeah, if my livelihood was selling seeds, I'd get honked off too if someone was going on the Internet and sayin' they got bad seed from me when in fact it may have come from someone else. There's lots of anal folks and those who are way too quick to judge on these boards. Bad press is hard to overcome when some folks just live for bad news.

I really hate to admit, after reading posts last year and
just now, that I still have a question about Red Brandywine. I did purchase seed from TGS supply last
year identified as RB, Landis so I know it truely is.
(I did manage to avoid the 2 "faux" RB from TGS). Is the
Red Brandywine described in Carolyn's book, my bible, a
"standard" Red Brandywine or could it be Landis?

I also got seed from Victory sold as Red Brandywine" but
Landis museum is mentioned in the description. Is it
really Red Brandywine, Landis (the same as the TGS, RB, Landis. Last year, I got the impression that RB, Landis
was a tad smaller than Red Brandywine---is this correct?
Or is there only one true Red Brandywine and that is Landis
whether or not it's part of the name (assuming you haven't
purchased a faux RB). I guess I'd like to just get it
straight once and for all!! I haven't grown the Victory
Red Brandy yet. I'm going to send someone both and I'd
like to know if I can truthfully tell them one is RB Landis, a tad smaller, and the other is Red Brandywine (victory) which may be a bit larger. Thanks for any info
about these two. Darlene

The replies are interesting and appreciated. However, the question, if you don't know the source of the red brandywine seed, is how can you tell the real red brandywine from the false. Carolyn described the real red brandywine as "The original true Red Brandywine is RL with medium sized RED fruits." What does the false regular leaf red brandywine look like? Given the variability of taste, I won't ask.

I'm asking out of curiosity and because I'll likely save seeds from the variety I'm growing. What do I call them -- brandywine type? Of course in zone 3 that may be a moot question.

What does the false regular leaf red brandywine look like?

****

I have no idea. LOL

if you're referring to the two NOT RB's at TGS you know enough not to buy them as correct RB anyway and the blurb for both says large red, indet, etc. LOL And as far as I know the only place you'll come up against an RL that is an RB, or suggested to bhe, is at TGS.

The main confusion has been between RB (RL) which is true and RB (PL) which is not.

If you look at the sources listed above for correct RB there shouldn['t be a problem.

And I was growing correct RB back in about 1991 or so, before any wrong RB's were put in circulation, so I knew when I saw the PL RB popping up there was, and actually still is at those places where they seem not to know some of their tomato varieties very well or if they buy off the shelf or by subcontract they didn't grow the stuff out before listing varieties for sale.

Carolyn

Carolyn says
**And I was growing correct RB back in about 1991 or so, before any wrong RB's were put in circulation, so I knew when I saw the PL RB popping up there was, and actually still is at those places where they seem not to know some of their tomato varieties very well or if they buy off the shelf or by subcontract they didn't grow the stuff out before listing varieties for sale. **
So Carolyn, was that one in 1991 the same as what is now called Landis, or was it the old original, from the 1800 some thing, that is referred to as bigger? If there was an older, bigger one, and I say "if", does it exist today?

You know, the more I think about it, Carolyn would likely
say that RB is RB, PERIOD. TGS may add the Landis just
to let you know that variety is the "real" RB and not one
of the "faux" RB's offered on that site under "beefsteaks". (But I swear I remember someone telling me RB is a bit larger than Landis.... maybe they
had a faux RB :( .) Anyway, I guess as long as "faux" RB's
are sold, it's helpful to identify the original source and
we know we can depend on certain sources to have the correct seed. The biggest problem comes when we save seed
and pass it on without knowing the original source. I just
about bought the regular leaf "faux" RB last year from TGS.
If I hadn't read the threads here, I wouldn't have known to search it out on their website. I think it was listed under mid-season rather than beefsteaks like the "faux"
regular and potato leaf. And maybe that's why some people
feel it's a larger tomato than it is-they're growing a "faux" RB beefsteak.

Darlene - a couple of us who have grown both have already mentioned above that the fruits is essentially identical - inside and out and color. Hoosier mentioned that his off-brand plants might have been a bit stockier. I didn't note that.

So I doubt you are going to get any DEFINITIVE answer. In fact, I sincerely doubt one even exists or ever will. So if absolute purity and accuracy is vital you to then you'll apparently have to stick to only those specifically identified as Landis (not mentioned in passing but specifically labeled as such).

I'm going to send someone both and I'd
like to know if I can truthfully tell them one is RB Landis, a tad smaller, and the other is Red Brandywine (victory) which may be a bit larger.

No, not from the purist POV. That's how the problem got started in the first place and would only compound the confusion. If it is someone like the rest of us who don't really care which it is then send them and call them Red Brandywine Type - origin unknown. ;)

Dave

Here's another variety that's a dead ringer for Red Brandywine....Nepal! I sure couldn't tell much of a difference! (And yes I know I have the correct Red Brandywine)

colorado, What I grew in '91 is the same that TOm Hauch got out of the SSE Yearbook and others were growing and listing it as well. I said above that I compared my 91 with Tom Hauch's current stock and they were identical.

I'd said above that after Tom sent seeds to Steve Miller at the Landis Museum that it was Steve who got the background info.

There are NO seeds that came forward directly from about 1865 in a direct line as far as I know. And Tom can't even remember the name of the SSE person he got the seeds from and clearly others got it from that person as well. I didn't say that as clearly as I should have. RB was listed by an SSE member in an SSE Yearbook. How that SSE member got the seeds is not known. Apparently Steve contacted that SSE lister and found that the variety was knnown to have been grown by the Amish in Chester Co PA. One might assume that the original SSE lister got it from the Amish.

You know, I think a lot of these questions would be answered if those of you who still have questions, were to read the article at Victory Seeds on the history of brandywines by Craig LeHoullier. He did the family ones and I provided the info for the ones that were bred or resulted from cross pollinations.

Fruit size alone can never ID a variety b'c as I think most of ou know, weather can alter fruit sizes, and so can amendments used. So without doing controlled studies I would not use fruit size as THE determining factor in IDing any variety,

Carolyn

The Victory Seeds history of brandywines by Craig LeHoullier suggests that red brandywines that aren't are pink potato leaf varieties. By default, a red regular leaf red brandywine is a real red brandywine. Did I read the history correctly? It was really neat to see how the number of listings expanded over time.

Last year grew so called Red Brandywine but it was PL and barely produced much fruit for me, plus the taste wasn't even good enough to remember so def. not worth growing....make sure you get your seeds from a good source, I've heard the Landis strain is supposed to be really good.

The Victory Seeds history of brandywines by Craig LeHoullier suggests that red brandywines that aren't are pink potato leaf varieties. By default, a red regular leaf red brandywine is a real red brandywine. Did I read the history correctly? It was really neat to see how the number of listings expanded over time.

*******

I think that Craig wrote that before the RL and PL NOT RB's , both red, were listed at TGS. So you have to take that into account as well. I haven't read it in a long time and don't remember if TGS was mentioned or not but I don't think so.

Carolyn

Carolyn, It is not mentioned and as you said was way before the seeds by design fiasco.

My seed came from you originally in 2003 IIRC. Look at the photo of Red Brandywine Landis and of Druzba as in tomatogrowers and that is the difference I see between them. Druzba is very clearly a more nearly round tomato but it has a slightly less sweet flavor than Red Brandywine.

Re Nepal, it may look a lot like Red Brandywine, but the seedlings do NOT have the same vigor and I don't get quite as much production.

DarJones

This is very interesting to me. I hated history in school but tomato history is fascinating - more like a mystery story. I clipped Carolyn's list of red rounds that taste good. I have Drusba, Bulgarian # 7 and Box Car plants in my basement. It would be interesting to plant all five and compare. Or am I not going to be able to tell much difference between them? If I were in charge of keeping the varieties pure, I don't think it would be fun to try to police them. Interesting details are coming out in this discussion and I can't help but wonder if there are only a few dozen kinds of tomatoes but many names for the same thing.

Just to clarify, when I did that list of so called round reds I wasn't suggesting that they should be compared with Red Brandywine as I know it, I was just saying that there are other good round reds.

And if anyone, such as you Helen, wants to compare those round reds, well some are oblate, that's fine as well. To me they are distinctive varieties except for fruit color and shape.

Carolyn

Good because it is fun trying them. In one way I look at it there are several different tomatoes given the same name so you don't know which is the real one. But another problem is that sometimes the same tomato has different names. I was reading that Stump of the World is also called Big Ben. I liked Granny Cantrell last year; it was kind of similar to the Mortgage Lifter I grew. I am not that analytical so fine points are lost on me. I am sure there was a difference. One was much later but then I didn't plant them at the same time. One was in a pile of aged barn dirt and one wasn't. If I had grown hundreds I am sure big differences would have popped up.

Helen, the Stump of the World/Big Ben issue is still contentious. The grand nephew of Ben Quisenberry who is credited with introducing both appeared at another place where I post and weighed in on that.

I can't think of too many varieties that have two names in English, and having all the SSE YEarbooks back to 1975 I can trace varieties and now those SSE members who can also access the online version of the YEarbook can do the same even tho the online is still not functional and SSE folks are making requests from the paper one.

I was just at a website reviewing the tomato varieties for someone and it was said that White Queen was one of the oldest so called whites around as compared to Great White and others they listed. Not true at all, it was first listed in the 1941 Earl May catalog.

And I won't belabor all the other errors I found at this site. Well, just two. The picture of Opalka is NOT Opalka and several hybrids are listed, but not listed as hybrids and seeds sold for the OP price which indicates to me that saved F2 seed is being sold.

OK, almost time to go watch the mens tennis final from Indian Wells, CA. I'm a huge tennis fan. ( smile)

Carolyn