Ami-Raybo- Contianer Ted. PLEASE respond to this Question Bill

I do realize that pinkish stems is a good sign, but I can't figure out if some of the plants leaves are yellowing because of too much water, too much heat or a lack of nutrients.

Same problem, under 4 bulb fixture, bottom watered, peppers doing great, tomatoes starting to get me worried, turning yellow and curling.

Rain Frog or tlowery04,

Any chance either of you can post pictures of the affected plants?

Is it the cotyledon leaves that are yellowing? Or lower or upper regular leaves?

More info would be helpful.

Betsy

I've got to go with too much water or your soil is too water retentive. I can't see getting too much light or heat out of those bulbs at a distance of over an inch. Too much light out of any light bulb is impossible with todays technology.

the cotyledon leaves are yellowing and curling-- and I did read that they naturally do curl and fall off. However, the plants that were further from the light (or, shall I say, the heat) have bigger true leaves developing and no yellowing cotyledons. Which leads to the next question: when do the cotyledons fall off?

I have moved plants into an old 20 gallon long aquarium with the lights further above the plants and separated with a glass lid, and it seems to be helping.

That is a good point about "hard to get too much light." I really should have put a thermometer directly under the lamp because it got quite warm underneath, being a 27 watt compact fluorescent.

Do different heirlooms have different types of leaf development? I know that Brandywine produces potato type leaves and one interesting thing is that most of the tommy toe plants produced strongly curled cotyledons while the brandywine's are much flatter.

It's natural for the cotyledons to fall off when your plant has 3-4 new leaves IME.
Placing your plants in an aquarium will raise the humidity and make hardening off slightly more difficult. You're asking for fungal problems also. I'd take them out or at least leave the top off.

I took them out of the watering trays and they are in their own dry tray away from the light - maybe it will fix them before they die

The soil in the last picture looks way too wet IMO. I've never experienced that type of yellowing but have seen something similar in larger plants caused by Roundup.
I just did a quick review and didn't see (by either of you)the type of soil used?

The last picture you posted looks very similar to what I experienced last year. Turns out our well water was the culprit - high ph and way too high in TDS. We are using citric acid to lower the ph this year.

I'm not saying the water is the problem - but might be worth checking out. Any chance you could use rain water to water your plants?

Sure looks like over watering / not well draining soil to me.

I put sets of 8 bulbs (4 lights of 2 bulbs each) of 40 watt, 3400 lumen florescent bulbs less than an inch from my seedlings (sometimes they touch before i realize it) and I have never, ever had burning.

However I have seen the above from over watering, or when I've mistakenly used pots that don't have drain holes. Make sure you let them dry out, before watering again, and not keep them in a constant state of wetness.

Jwstell42

I do have a very high pH in my tapwater-- like 9-10.

3 plants down, haven't watered yet, still moist.

Rainfrog - If they continue to get worse - re-pot in new soil, and use plain white vinegar to get the ph of your water down to about 6. The difference in our plants between this year and last year is amazing!

This is the problem I'm having. It just seems that the seedlings' cotyledon leaves are yellowing / curling too soon before the regular leaves develop. The plants got leggy because I didn't have them under lights when they first sprouted and then they bolted for the light, but within a few days I put a strong light over them.

Are you sure vinegar won't hurt the plants' roots? I think I heard of people using vinegar as herbicide sprayed on foliage.

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The soil both of you are using looks way too water retentive. Both need to repot and mix your media with perlite 1/1.
RF I'm not sure what you're using but it looks like straight long fiber or a milled sphagnum. If so that would cancel out the PH problem.
I'm still going with too wet. Perlite will help you both with better drainage.

Rainfrog, can you get your plants under long fluorescent tubes, rather than the individual compact fluorescents? They really need to be directly under the light and pretty close to it.

I agree with Taz about the soil. RF, yours looks to me like peat. Potting up (bury the whole stems)into good potting mix containing perlite and vermiculite (or mixing what you've got with perlite to lighten it up, like taz suggests) will help. A little bit of very dilute fertilizer might help too.

The substrate is straight coco fiber-- no additives. I recently purchased a 4 foot T8 shoplight with daylight bulbs and now the plants are within 2" from the top of the bulbs. That solves any issues with too much heat or not enough light.

What kind of dilute fertilizer? My fear at this point is shocking the plants further.

I'd repot your seedlings deeper (all the way up to their cotyledons), mixing in at least 1 part perlite to every two parts coco fiber, and then fertilize with something like dilute fish emulsion (I liked Peaceful Valley Farm Supply's Omega 6-6-6 & Algamin; I think their new Omega 2000 is similar, but I'm not sure so I don't have any specific recommendations now.)

They're going to be happier now under the shoplight.

Here is a link that might be useful: my blog

RF No fertilizer is needed until the cotyledons fall off but something dilute (1/4 strength) shouldn't hurt. There are many variables that can lead to leggy plants. Among them are too hot, not enough light, too much fertilizer and too much water or any combination of them and too much water can lead to yellow leaves. Also your coco fiber could contain salt. Did you rinse it well before using?
I would transplant them in 1/1 peat/perlite or a good potting mix (which might contain some fertilizer) up to the cotyledons.

Yes it's a learning experience when getting started but don't despair. You'll get it down after a few errors.

Thanks for all your help folks!

I'm going down to the local garden center to buy some perlite and some organic fertilizer. I think just to be safe, I'll use my reverse osmosis purifier to keep the pH more stable since my tapwater is so alkaline. I have something called "RO Right" that you add back in to reconstitute the minerals, depending on what hardness you want.

From reading other posts on this forum, too alkaline can cause the nutrients to precipitate and starve the plants.

how do i replant them without causing them to go into shock? woulden't i be basically exposing their roots to swap soils?

It's absolutely fine to expose the roots. I swear that tomato plants LIKE it. I purposely plant multiple seeds in a single cup or cell and then separate them out into individual pots once they have one set of true leaves.

Here's a video of someone else potting up. I do only like 4-8 per variety (not super super dense planting like he shows) but I can attest that it works great.

Here is a link that might be useful: Craig LeHoullier potting up

They're quite tough if their needs are met. Just try to keep from breaking roots and don't keep them exposed for long. For the best results you should do this just after the lights shut off or anytime as long as you leave the lights off for a few hours after transplant. Also don't flood them when transplanting. Just moisten the soil.

i haven't transplanted them just yet, but going by my picture, I only have like 1-2 small, true leaves on my tomatoes. The other day, some of the yellowed cotyledons fell off. Will the plants recover, or am I going to have to start over?

Delaying the transplanting isn't going to help them.

After transplanting into a less water retentive mix, using a shoplight, giving a weak fish emulsion fertilizer, and making sure the pH of the water was 6.0-6.8, the tomatoes grew a lot and started to make a comeback. Some of the brandywine tomatoes (not pictured) look pretty good. However, I'm still having issues with most of the tommy toe and some of the Brandywine. Its as if they're all growing very slowly, old leaves yellow and drop off and very little growth. I don't think its nitrogen deficiency because I've given them a diluted fish emulsion watering twice and its definitely not overwatering this time because the soil gets pretty dry. The plants are at least 5-6 weeks old, and most of them look so small. I don't water until I can stick my finger an inch into the soil and its barely damp.

I've been keeping them an inch or almost touching a shoplight, but I've only kept the photoperiod on for 13 hours. I did bury the stem of the plants almost all the way up to the cotyledons like suggested. Does the photoperiod have anything to do with it? I've had a lot of issues for some reason with stuff started indoors but everything that likes it cooler outdoors in the bed (bok choy, peas, chinese broccoli, radishes) are growing wonderfully. :( Unfortunatley, I can't put the tomatoes outside in KC until middle of May :(

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transplanting into a less water retentive mix,

Like what? Got a brand name?

Those are some pretty pathetic looking plants in that last picture. I'm really surprised they have survived this long and I honestly wouldn't expect much from them even if they do survive as they have clearly suffered far too much stress.

But if you want to save them then do yourself a favor and just buy a small bag of any name brand soil-less potting mix - MG, Scotts, Sta-Green, etc. - and transplant those poor things DEEP burying all that stem in it. Then cut the watering you are doing by at least 1/2.

Dave

It isn't lumens that matter, it is "temperature". As in Kelvin. Bulbs called "daylight" are very good, about 6500K. Standard ones are about 2,000 to 3,000 K and don't provide the full range of colors that plants need. "Plant lights" are better, but quite frankly they are are too expensive for the slight additional light spectrum.

Get the "daylight" bulbs and you will have healthier plants. And in cartons, they are about the same price as the shoplight (low K) ones.

It isn't lumens that matter, it is "temperature".

Both are important. Anything between 4100k and 6500k is best IMO.

"Plant lights" are better

Wrong! I've used them and got nothing but leggy plants. They are a gimmick for the inexperienced with lolly pop written on their forehead and if you believe they are better then you might like the gimmick in the link below as well.

Here is a link that might be useful: tomato planter