If we didn't create much of our own food supply, the human animal wouldn't be too nice about their own behavior, I assure you. (We aren't too nice, as it is.)

Kristi,
Well written. It is difficult to compose written text and not sound shrill sometimes - you've done it well. I can discern the honest exchange of opinion in your tone.

By the same token, I didn't want to sound hostile in the original post. I was trying hard not to offend, but help the "city folk" understand how wild - wild is. Whether we want to admit it or not, we are all part of God's creation - some can be quite hostile.
If I had your situation of barns in this area - anywhere around DFW - I wouldn't allow the unchecked propagation of cats either.

Its not like there were hoards of hawks sitting in my trees, but the first time it started I had noticed a big red tail hawk sitting on the power pole across the road from me. After a couple of days of "disappearances", I put one and one together. He/she moved on and the "disappearances" would cease.

One night I threw my front door open, flipped on the light and was 10' from a HUGE (looked like a 6' wing span) great-horned owl swooping down on a full grown cat. The owl pulled up and the cat turned around and looked at me - he never heard that owl coming - owls fly silently. I find the wildlife fascinating, and whether it was my "house quail" or the "house cats" when you live out like we did - EVERYTHING could be on the menu.

We were VERY isolated up there in Kent county - 16 miles northwest of Jayton - we're talking about NOWHERE!! I was really hoping to share a diffeent culture with folks - another set of thought processes - a different way of life fast becoming extinct, but I'm afraid that is impossible. That's the kind of place the few (very few) REAL cowboys still exist.

And, yes ma'am, Justin is WAY prettier than Levelland and Plainview!!! LOL My mother still lives in Lubbock (i've lived there off and on for 8 years myself). Everytime the wind hits 20+ miles an hour here, I think, "boy, if this were west Texas, the sky would be turning brown on the horizon!!" Now, THAT'S part of west Texas I DO NOT miss!! LOL I'm enjoying being 15 minutes from the store instead of 65 miles!!

Thanks for your honest opinion expressed in such a gentle manner. I have so enjoyed the posts here on GardenWeb and the obviously fine people hanging out here.

A fine day to you too, Kristi. Hope to see you ALL at the show.

J.D.

J.D. it doesn't matter where you live - in the sticks or in the city, it is important to have your cats spayed and neutered, and also important to take proper care of them. There are way, way, way too many cats in the world. It may not seem like it, but allowing your cats to breed uncontrollably does contribute to the over population problem. For every kitten your cats produce there's lots more in shelters and on waiting lists needing adoption, including ferals that could make good barn cats. Instead of allowing your cats to have kittens, if you need another barn cat you could adopt a rescued feral cat and give it a home in your barn. There's even a rescue group that specializes in placing homeless cats in barns. You can help protect your cats from predators by locking them in the barn at night, or, better yet, all the time. They don't have to be food for wild animals. Cats, even though they become feral quickly, are domesticated animals.

Allowing a cat to remain "intact" contributes to territorial fighting and the spread of diseases like leukemia, feline aids, FIP, distemper, etc. These diseases can cause suffering and pain. Spaying and neutering won't necessarily prevent these diseases, but it will help control the urge to fight and thus help control the spread of those diseases. Fighting can also lead to painful bite infections called absesses. Maybe, since you're a country boy, you think it's manly and cool for your cats to have scratched up faces and scarred bodies.

Cruelty is cruelty no matter where you live. Even country folk can do the right thing for their animals that depend on them, and I'm willing to bet that most of them do.

Please think about it. There are ways to get your cats fixed cheaply or free. They can be trapped using humane traps, and the humane society, or other groups like them, will help you get them fixed at no or low cost.

I didn't see this thread until after I posted a similar response over on the discussions page.

Sally

Sally,
I thought it best to post over here and keep the "Discussions" page dedicated to the topic.

Out in the country, cats are another beast of burden. I like the little "boogers" too. But, they serve their purpose. I don't think nature is cruel - its just nature. Cats are probably the most able to survive in the wild of all domesticated animals. That can be a problem. They are "natural born killers" - well except for Juniper here begging to get up in my lap.

Which cat is happiest? Juniper here, or the little "skypes" sneaking around the barn? Yes there are hazards, but even homo sapien puts himself at risk to climb mountains, shoot rapids, sky dive.

Principally, your views and mine show the cultural difference between 2 life styles. You are right for your environment. Likewise, I and thousands of country folk out there aren't wrong to not want to invest money in little creatures that may or may not be around tomorrow. There is nothing "macho" or "manly" about it. Its just the "circle of life".

Have you ever seen a really good mama cat teach her babies to kill? Very interesting. She catches a mouse/rat/bunny and cripples it. Then she drops it amongst the "kids". Its not long before they learn to pounce on it. If the crippled prey tries to get away, mama "bats" it back into the babies. Fascinating to watch - but cruel? We may see it as cruel, but mama is teaching her babies to survive. Spayed females don't do that. Males well, they don't do much anyway. LOL

All we have done is eliminate our natural predators to enable us to live safely in DFW. Mountain lions are taking homo sapien in the Rockies with regularity as we move into their "living rooms". Cruel - no - we are slow, tender, and cannot protect ourselves from them. They have little danger of being hurt by an unarmed human.

Our cats never overpopulated. There were so many predators (coyotes, owls, hawks, opossums - yes, opossums, etc) that as stated earlier, we never had more than 5 adults at any one time. We gave some away to others, at times.

I know you are speaking from your knowledge and life experience, and I take no offense.

Have a wonderful day - I SEE THE SUN!!!

j.d.

"Our cats never overpopulated. There were so many predators (coyotes, owls, hawks, opossums - yes, opossums, etc) that as stated earlier, we never had more than 5 adults at any one time. We gave some away to others, at times."

Ah, yes.

Death, the ultimate birth control.

1. Domestic cats are *not* equiped to live in the wild.

2. Living in the barns & pastures is not living "naturally".

3. Cruelty is cruelty, & neglect is neglect, no matter how you rationalize it.

4. Never have I heard cats referred to as "beasts of burden", for any reason, let alone as a justification for allowing them to live short, violent, miserable lives.

You've been given some very good, very compassionate advice.

My advice is to take some of it.

I'm gonna disagree that cats aren't equipped to live in the wild. Sure, you can domesticate them, declaw them, make them fat and happy, and then you cannot boot them outside. I own two of these louts that have never seen the sun.

But a feral cat has quite a few animals beneath them on the food chain. The food chain exists outside the city limits. In some countries we are part of the food chain, and we aren't at the top all the time. BTW I don't think a cat that is "wild" is necessarily "feral". A wild cat just isn't used to human touch, being held, etc and will run away. But gets its food by panhandling, or it is provided. A feral cat gets its food the old fashioned way.

This food chain thing is built into the system. It provides a service. I don't think you should lure birds to a feeder and let your cat have at them, but I do think that slow prey are weeded out of the population by fast predators. Improves the species.

The animal I've never understood is the rabbit. It's basically not equipped to survive, so it was given a very strong procreative urge. Tons of rabbits early in the spring. Just enough to make it through winter later one in the fall. It's like God provided this little kickstart at the bottom of the food chain.

I wasn't refering to nature as cruel. Nature is nature, and predators have an important role in nature. It's the human responsible for taking proper care of his/her pets, and cats have been domesticated as pets for 1000's of years, that's cruel if he/she doesn't think it's necessary to protect that cat from predators because that's their way to control the cat population. Lets see, what's worse, a surgical procedure done under general anesthesia in sterile conditions and after care follow up, or being ripped apart and maimed and killed? Hummm, that's a tough one.

The cultural differences between "country folk" and "city folk" is irrelevant. My city neighbors are pretty much as clueless about caring for their pets as what you're describing you "country folks" are. They allow their cats to remain intact and wonder around, mating, spreading disease, and getting injured from fights and attacks. There are coyotes, bobcats, foxes, and hawks in the city, too, and have been known to kill small pets. That kind of mentality is not limited to country folk, and you are insulting most country folk by including them in that mindset

I also don't go for the excuse that it's okay for cats to be ripped to shreds by predators because that's what they do, too. Yes, cats are among the most cruel killers, aside from humans. That's instinct. Humans are thinkers, and can reason out what's right and wrong.

Sally

I am sure there are a lot of people that think the same as you Sally.

ok, I give. Bring the kids inside - and keep them there. POWER TO THE RATTLESNAKES!! :)

JD

Well, I'm impressed that ya'll are having this discussion so civilly. It has been my obervation that there is no topic that is more divisive than that of cats.

Sylvia, I LOVED your comment about death as the ultimate birth control.

TXGardn, I got my YOU stompin' boots on and I'm commin' to GIT YA! hahaha LOL!

To return to the dreaded NON-NATIVE topic, domesticated cats are non-native and really are not equipped to survive in a healthy fashion on their own. The ideal barn cat situation would be to spay and neuter them all, get them their shots yearly, and give them adequate shelter, food and water. Unfortunately, this is an extremely expensive and time consuming proposition for those wanting barn cats.

Also, unfortunately, living where there are hawks and owls and coyotes and bobcats, one does lose pet cats sometimes. It has happened to me. I'm one of those people who believe that cats should be allowed to go outside sometimes. Keeping them in at night would be ideal, but not always possible, especially with barn cats.

So, Justin, here is what you do! Put the kids out during the day and bring them in with tuna at night. :) Voila!

PPB
I've just never been a good cat herder. LOL

When I lived out where we had the real snake problems, I would prefer "tuna" get snake bit over my kids. I'm just a little sentimental about the kids.

PPB,
"I'm one of those people who believe that cats should be allowed to go outside sometimes."

I agree. I wouldn't want to be locked in a house 24/7 and don't believe my cat would put up with it either. He and the dog are driving eachother nuts as it is. With this cold weather, they have not been spending much time outside.

I also believe that all cats need, at the very least, some rudimentary "outdoor skills". Lord knows how many indoor cats have been accidentally let out and then have no concept of how to survive or find their way home if they wander to far. In my opinion, de-clawing is insane, not to mention extremely painful to the animal. THESE guys are at a huge disadvantage if they find themselves outside and lost after never being outside before. Not only can they not hunt, but they can't defend themselves either. Even climbing a tree to escape is often impossible for them.

J.D.,

I did want to offer up that there are other methods of rodent control. I'm not a poison monger, but for the purposes of controling rodent populations in order to control snake populations in a given area, poison (when used properly and cautiously) insures that the only ones that have to die are the rodents. I know that there are some who would say "Oh no, what about the pets and children who might get into it?" There ARE ways to prevent that so that the only danger would be if you have an escaped PET mouse or rat :). Just something to consider.....

Kristi

I have several roadrunners, and they seem to handle my snake problem quite adequately. I do have cats as well, but they are all spayed or neutered, even those that uncaring people drop off.

Carrie,

We have a couple of roadrunners out here too, but we have still seen copperheads. I haven't seen as many roadrunners the last couple of years. I think the drought took a toll on them as well as the bunnies. After years of having really healthy populations of bunnies, they are downright scarce these days. I think it will all trickle down to fewer snakes as well. Bunnies are major snake yummies.

Kristi

Kristi,
I agree on the poisons/baits. We used them in the tack room where we could cotrol them. The real problem with modern chemicals is misuse. People just don't read and follow instructions - but then - I'm a chemical salesman. If a little is good, then a lot is...........really bad!!!
J.D.

but what about the critters that eat the poisoned rodents? Don't they get poisoned too?

PPB, that's a very good point. I don't have a definitive answer. The only type of bait that I have ever used is the type that desicates the rodent. In other words, it dries the rodent's body out from within and was very fast acting. I also am ignorant of how long the chemical in what I used remains active.....

All I can draw upon is my experience with it and to my knowledge, I have never had a pet eat one of these animals (or if they did, it did not have a negative effect)and I have never seen any dead rodent predators after using this bait. Thankfully, we now have a situation wherein rodents are not attracted to our feed storage areas and I have not had to resort to using chemicals in a very long time. While I DID use them, I was not happy about having to do so.

The only thing I can think is that perhaps since the bait was so fast acting and dried out the bodies, there was no odor to attract any scavengers or predators. Your point is valid and presents yet another reason to devise methods of feed storage and barn upkeep that are not attractive to rodents. All of our feed (horse, dog, cat, domestic and wild bird seed) is now stored in sealed containers. In the past we were having mice and sometimes rats actually burrowing into bagged horse feed and setting up house, complete with nurseries. To put it conservatively, this was quite expensive not to mention......unsettling when unknowingly lifting one of these bags only to have mother and numerous babies leaping out in panic. LOL, I can assure you their panic was minimal compared to mine. It's amazing the new dances you can come up with when you have mice running up your arms and jumping onto your head!!

Kristi

Kristi,

You know, I never got used to those little critters running down my arms, legs!!! LOL Great exercise initiator, though!!

Sealed containers are the key.

PPB
I used the same type of bait. I always wondered about the possibility of the poison "carry over", however,I can't attribute any harm to any of our animals to it.
J.D.

I believe the Olympic Event - 50# feed bag tossing - got its origin there. ; - )
J.D.

ROFL!!!! Oh, that is verry funny, Kristi and JD. I have found that the only type of container that works is metal. What do you use, Kristi? hmmm... I just had a thought. I bet you could use old refrigerators with the shelves removed. I bet that would keep most everything out. Kinda not the most high-class look, but hey.

PPB,

For the horse feed, I use the largest rubber (or plastic, I'm not sure) trashcans I can find. We pour the feed into them and then just scoop it out. Now I only buy as much feed as will fit into them so that we don't ever have bagged feed laying out. Every so often, I do have to use fire ant bait on the floor surrounding the bottom of the containers, but that's the only problem I've had with those. I do have a friend that has a HUGE old chest type freezer (non-working) and they pour the bags into it. Works great for them and they probably don't have to deal with fire ants unless the rubber seal has weathered and lost effectiveness. For the dog and cat food, I use the rubbermaid-ish type cereal storage containers that have lids that pop up and I can just pour from those directly into the bowls. These stay in the house and I have noticed that the little boogers eat this food better than they did when it was just stored in the bag. Guess it stays fresher. For the domestic bird seed, I just use one of the small storage containers (rectangular) and it's stored inside. I had a problem with the moths that come in bird seed and this completely eliminated it. The wild bird seed is stored in the garage in the same type container, only a much larger one. Out here in the sticks, we leave our garage door open a LOT and this keeps from attracting the little buggers (mice) into the garage.

With hay and alfalfa prices what they are these days (due to the persistent drought the last couple of years), we have not bought either in large quantities for a while now. THIS has gone a long way in not attracting them like it used to when we were getting 2 or 3 hundred bales at a time. Now I just buy enough to last about a week (about the same amount of time that the horse feed lasts) and honestly....I couldn't tell you the last time I saw a mouse or.....yuck, a rat. Of course, I am sure their populations are much diminished due to the drought as well.

Oh and by the way.....when you can't see any of your neighbor's houses from yours, high class looks tend to take a back seat :). My compost bins are made out of pallets and while you won't find them in "House Beautiful", they do a great job :).

Kristi

Kristi....dried molassas will repell fire ants. I don't know if it kills them or not.
Last year I got fire ants in my compost and sprinkled dry molasses on it and the next day they were gone. It sweetened the compost too. I also spread it on my lawn & flower beds a few times a year. I get less fire ants than my neighbors.

My cats couldn't catch a bird if it dropped dead in front of them. Plus with a parrot they are scared of birds!

The feral cats that hang out at my favorite restaurant in Bolivar have great population control, between the hawks, owls, coyotes and other predators almost no kittens survive-only 3 last year. There is now a great blue heron hanging out there bumming food and HE attacks the full grown cats! Yes, they do round them up and get them fixed on a regular basis, but people keep dumping them there.

And being a "city" person doesn't mean we are ignorant of the "country". I've lived in both. And there have been coyotes seen on The Strand, our primary tourist area, in the middle of town, during the day. Coyotes have adapted to life with people. We even have racoons, possums, hawks, owls, snakes and assorted other wildlife on the island and in the city. I watched a huge hawk chasing a squirrel around and around the oak tree next door last summer. We also have tons and tons of rats. I see them running across the power lines or climbing up the trees. The cats and one dog do chase and catch them.

As to the poisoned rats, the amount of poison to kill a rat is a very small amount. A SMALL predator would have to eat the entire rat, and maybe even a couple of them to be bothered. Think of the body mass of a rat compared to the body mass of a coyote, a dog or a human, takes a whole lot more to kill us then the rat. Since as was pointed out earlier they tend to dry out and not really smell it doesn't seem to be a problem. I couldn't find anything in the literature on secondary poisoning.
I'm going to try the molasses thing, how do you dry it out??
Tally HO!

"I'm going to try the molasses thing, how do you dry it out??".

Sorry Tally, but I got a pretty good giggle from that one! LOL, you buy bags of dry molasses at a feed store (probably cheaper) or at a nursery.

Thanks for the smile :)

Kristi

"but mama is teaching her babies to survive. Spayed females don't do that."

Maybe you don't have much experience with cats. All my cats are spayed/neutered and I can assure you that the adult females DO take the time to teach the youngsters how to hunt and kill. Spaying a cat doesn't take away it's natural instinct to hunt, or a female's natural instinct to care for kittens...whether she is their biological mother or not.

Just some of those survival skills Mother Nature has instilled.

There were a few cats people had spayed that I new of out in the "hinter lands". It was just commonly accepted that they didn't "hunt" like the others. The spayed females appeared to get fat and lazy - much like me - HEY,,,, WAIT JUST A MINUTE!!! LOL Might have been because those cats that somebody invested money in, where kept in more. No science here, just general consensus.

You know you're a redneck, when Jeff Foxworthy calls you for material. LOL

Cats get fat for the same reasons we do. Genetics, slowing metabolism brought on by age, overeating, eating high levels of carbs (corn based food), and medications (ie. Steriods).

Neutering won't make the cat fat. People just use that as an excuse. (for their own laziness)

Guys I just can't resist commenting on this, You've heard me talk about my fat cat Tiger, & I was hoping if I fostered some kittens she would figure out they were the same as her only babies - - nope didn't happen, at least not yet. Hopefully the Humane society will have more for me soon. It's been so long since I've posted that I don't know if I remember how to do the pictures. If I can't do it ask PJ, cause I sent some to her by email. Bev nope didn't there used to be a browse button so you could find the pictures ? Our 1st litter were polydactals & gave me ringworm but they were so cute 1 had 7 toes & the other 6 on their front paws. They were really good soccer players ! Bev

Oh, fostering kittens would be such fun... I love kittens. And big ones too.

Bev, Hi, where have you been?
jolana

Sick computer, sick me, then Babies ! of the 4 legged kind. Dh was getting a little worried about me & thought they might be a good distraction . Both the younger boys were in Iraq at the same time - - in different places ! & I really wasn't myself. Having the kittens to take care of helped alot. I will try to figure out how to post pictures again, seems I forgot how to do stuff while the computer was broke. It's fun to be a foster mom most of the time. I don't know if Tiger has the maternal instinct or not, about the time she thinks they might be fun to play with they are adopted out. Contact your local humane society, foster parents are always needed. Bev

"Cats get fat for the same reasons we do. Genetics, slowing metabolism brought on by age, overeating, eating high levels of carbs (corn based food),"

maden - yep, just like me!! LOL I concede the point.
J.D.

Personal experience with fat cats is: cat was large active cat; cat was prevented or discouraged from being active; cat become HUGE fat cat. This has happened twice, to males. My cats are always neutered and that has not had any noticable effect, other than much less fighting and much less reproduction. And spraying. And roaming days on end.

Bev - keep trying! Rocket did not get along well with other cats for a loong time. I foster cats too and I think now that he has been introduced to so many, he has realized not all cats are bad, and they're not all out to get him. He's my biggest cat, but for many years was my biggest scaredy cat! He's better now that he's had more socialization.

Thanks, I'll keep trying, she can't stand to have another cat or a dog walk across her yard ! The sound she makes is scary. With the kittens it's more like " what is that ? is it going to get me ? " About the time she thinks about playing with them, it's time for them to be adopted. I hope to do this for a good long time so with time maybe she'll mellow out like Rocket. Bev

Just reading about kitties and hoping everyone is having good luck and no losses. Spay and neuter and adopt!

Rocket was scared of kittens too. He thought they were going to 'get' him. If you can imagine, that 15 pound fluffy beast running away from a three pound kitten! It helps to use some interactive toys while everyone is in the same room. Get them all interested in playing with the toy. While they are focused on that, the scared cat will often forget about their fear. You'll have to start over when the kittens change, but the sheer repetition of the excercise will start to take effect. Cats learn by association. If you can arrange good experiences with the kittens, Tiger will begin to associate new kittens as a good thing. She will learn to expect a playmate and not an enemy, thus will lose some of that fear.

Thanks for the hints, I tried rubbing a cat wipe cloth on Tiger then on the kittens to see if that helped & I'll keep on doing that with the new litters - - if I ever get anymore. It feels like forever since they called with any babies. We're leaving in the am for Ft Hood & #3 son's wedding so maybe when we get back I'll have good news. At least now I know who to contact when I have a question !! Bev

Is there really such a thing as a cat wipe cloth? What is it?

PPB, There really is such a thing, I found it at Petsmart & the official name is CatWipes, probably could have used baby wipes but these are bigger. I have to wipe Tiger down everyday or so cause I'm allergic to cats. Sounds dumb huh but I do love them, so I can put up with itchy eyes & runny nose a little. Also when she goes outside with me she loves to lay & roll in the soil when I'm planting seedlings & gets really dirty. Bev

Aw Bev, that is so good! I do love kitties. Yes, they love to roll in dirt or sand. Or on the sidewalk. It seems to me it helps their coat. Maybe it removes some oil or something. If they get sort of clumpy looking a good roll in the dirt always helps. :)

Actually we are fat because of the fat fairy. Remember when you put your tooth under the pillow and got a quarter? Or nickel? Well, that winged (^(^((&&*&%$%$ takes the teeth and grows them into fat cells. When you are sleeping happily with all your adult teeth she sneaks in and glues it to your butt and thighs, and anywhere else she can.
And uh, I kind of roll around in the dirt too, it sure makes me happy to be all dirty in the garden!
Tally Ho!

Yeah, yeah, that's it Tally, lol a Fat Fairy, lol

That's absolutely correct !! Fat Fairies, they are the culprits. It can't be the Cadbury Eggs ! They visit me & Tiger, DUH !!

Fat Fairies, oh gee, you've started something now!
Jim

LOL! Glad to know what happened to me. If I have all my teeth pulled, will I get skinny again???

Yeah, PPB, but because you can't eat anything then --hehehe.

Fat fairies, huh?

If that's the case, then I need to find the joker that's been putting all of those teeth under my pillow!!

Actually, when your teeth are all gone, ICE CREAM is all you can eat!
Jim

hmmm. Sounds like being toothless wouldn't help. I need to eat diet catfood I guess.