Londonistan

flyboy_fl(9FL)

I am looking for some input from our friends in the UK.

Tonight's news featured the new tape by al Jazeera, chronicling the story of one of London's recent suicide bombers. It seems to indicate a firm connection with al Qaeda -- and carries further threats to the UK, in the event that its troops remain in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Melanie Phillips recently wrote an informative book about the Muslim influence in the UK. She also penned this article last month.

What is the feeling of non-Muslim UKers?

LONDONISTAN

By MELANIE PHILLIPS

June 4, 2006 -- AFTER 9/11 plotter Zacarias Moussaoui was sentenced to life im prisonment, his family blamed - the British. Their son had had first arrived in London in the 1990s for an MA course in international business studies - and been radicalized and recruited for jihad at London's Finsbury Park mosque.

It was the British, his mother said, who turning a blind eye to the violence and spread of hate - and thus allowed this youth with a troubled and violent family background to be recruited to the cause of Islamist terrorism.

Leaving aside her complaint's self-serving aspect, she was undoubtedly correct.

Because British Prime Minister Tony Blair has been such a staunch friend to the United States, Americans assume that - unlike Europe - Britain generally is on side. They could not be more wrong. The dismaying truth is that Blair is an aberration in his own country. Instead of fighting radical Islamism, virtually the entire British political, intellectual and security establishment can't even bring themselves to name the threat.

* When the London suicide bombings occurred last July, the response was to blame, not Islamist terror, but "Islamophobia."

* When Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad recently ratcheted up his nuclear defiance, the response in Britain was horror - not at the Iranian nuclear threat, but at the risk that America might now be more likely to attack Iran.

* When the Danish cartoon jihad erupted across the world, the British media stood out from the rest of Europe in refusing to republish the drawings.

THROUGHOUT British society there runs deep hostility to America, Israel and the war in Iraq.

London was dubbed "Londonistan" because, during the 1990s, Britain allowed its capital to be turned into the principal hub of Islamist radicalism and terrorism outside of Saudi Arabia. But Londonistan is more than the physical presence of Islamist extremists: It is also a state of mind. A systematic, decades-long assault on Britain's values from within has created a cultural vacuum that Islamist extremism has exploited from without.

Islamist radicals have poured into Britain since the 1980s precisely because of Britain's tradition of free speech, reluctance to impose immigration controls and generous welfare state.

At the same time, British culture was steadily disintegrating. Unlike America, which still believes that its values are a beacon to the rest of the world, Britain has been consumed by a loss of cultural nerve that has all but destroyed its belief in itself as a nation with values of which it can be proud.

Instead, its governing class believes the nation is the source of all ills from prejudice to war, and that legitimacy resides instead in supranational institutions such as the United Nations and European Union and in "universal" values like the European Convention on Human Rights, which must trump Britain's own.

In the past, the strategy was to integrate immigrants into the majority culture. No longer. The doctrine of multiculturalism holds that all groups have equal status. Except they are not in fact equal, because the majority is said to be inherently racist and illegitimate - so there can be no majority culture into which immigrants are encouraged to integrate.

MULTICULTURALISM plus radical Islam is an explosive cocktail. Al though the vast majority of British Muslims are opposed to violence, polls have shown that some 13 percent think further attacks on the United States would be justified, 40 percent to 60 percent want to be governed by Sharia law, and nearly two fifths believe that Jews in Britain are a "legitimate target" as part of the "ongoing struggle for justice in the Middle East."

And non-Muslim Britons do not rise up in horror at these attitudes - instead, they more or less agree. Widespread ignorance about the Middle East contributes to the belief that Israel is the persecutor of the Palestinians and that American foreign policy has been derailed by global Jewish influence.

The mainly left-wing media daily pumps out a highly distorted and inflammatory version of events in Iraq and the Middle East. In conservative circles, meanwhile, traditional isolationism and an obsession with stability have combined with a profound collapse of trust in Tony Blair to produce widespread hostility to the war in Iraq.

The British anti-war movement is today an enormous platform for Islamist extremism that has given rise to an open season of vilification against Israel and the Jews.

The problem lies in a refusal to acknowledge that Islamist extremism is rooted in religion. Instead, ministers and security officials prefer to think of it as a protest movement against grievances such as Iraq or Palestine, or "Islamophobia." They simply ignore the statements and signs which show unequivocally that the aim is to Islamicize the west.

THE former FBI head of counter-intel ligence, Oliver Revell, says both America and Britain suffer from "a fastidious reluctance to enter into the sphere of religion." In Britain, the result has been a disastrously misguided strategy to appease Islamist extremism, in the belief that defusing Muslim rage will buy off further attacks.

So the policy is to prevent terrorism by tackling its "root causes" - by which the government means combating "distorted public and media perceptions of Islam and Muslims" and avoiding using the term "Islamic fundamentalism." This, of course, is simply real distortion and censorship.

Worse still, British officials are actually promoting the religious extremists of the Muslim Brotherhood in the mistaken belief that they are a preferable substitute for al Qaeda. A committee set up to advise Tony Blair how to combat Muslim extremism turned out to be stuffed with Muslim extremists, who promptly declared that the causes of Muslim terrorism were deprivation, discrimination and Islamophobia.

The attempt to get the Muslim community to tackle its extremism thus turned into a demand for Britain to treat them as the principal victim of British society, and a demand that Britain make amends by altering its foreign policy, and dictating how people talked and thought about Islam.

In a recent speech to a Muslim audience, the then-Foreign Secretary Jack Straw blamed the tension between the Islamic world and the west on Europe's hostility to Muslim immigration and to religion in general.

Both Britain and the United States are turning a blind eye to the fact that the source of Islamic terror is radical Islam. Students training to be imams at a college with strong Iranian links are being taught to despise non-Muslims as "filth." Meanwhile, radical Muslim chaplains promote an extremist agenda in U.S. prisons.

BRITAIN is the mother-ship for American values and the brand leader of English-speaking culture. The Londonistan mindset is being replicated in America: on campus, in the media and in official circles. If Britain goes down under this assault, the forces in America now holding back the tide of cultural immolation will be immeasurably weakened.

"Londonistan" is a threat not just to Britain, but to the whole of the free world.

Melanie Phillips is a columnist for the Daily Mail (London); her book "Londonistan" is in U.S. stores now.

Any comments?

: )

Here is a link that might be useful: Londonistan

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Comments (32)
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spewey

Melanie Phillips is an extremist hack, who was called "the most Islamophobic journalist of the year" a while back. She was thoroughly discredited about a flawed account she wrote on the MRR vaccine by epidemiologists, and now she is hawking a xenophobic agenda attempting to inflame the British against the Islamic community. No wonder you are touting her, flyboy, as her extreme Zionist views agree with yours.

Lomdonistan is the UK equivalent of The Turner Diaries or other skinhead fare in this country.

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andie_rathbone(Tyler, TX - 7B)

Spewey, We had friends from the UK visiting here last month & they pretty much agreed with your assessment of Melanie Phillips, equating her with Jean LePen in France.

The situation with Muslims in Britain is very complicated, which is usually the case isn't it? But instead of, as Phillips suggests that "British culture was steadily disintegrating," Britons, instead hold on very dearly to their traditions of free speech, fair play & the tradition of British Common Law (you know traditions like habeas corpus).

The Muslim populations in Britain has not been uniformly ghettoized as in France. There are now Muslim representatives both in the House of Commons and in the House of Lords, as opposed to France where not one person of color is in the 577 member Chamber of Deputies.

However, Muslims have found it harder to find meaningful employment as the British economy has moved from the industrial to the service sector, which has posed a problem form the younger generation of the British Muslim population. And with problems with employment, comes idle youths with too much time on their hands to be swayed by radical Inmans (who are funded by our good friends the Saudis)who will turn their angst to the British establishment in particular, or the West in general.

Muslims, specifically those from Pakistan & Bangladesh, have been in Britain in large numbers for 50 years. They travel back & forth between Britain & their old homes frequently. Some of them are most likely going to make contact with radicalized Muslims.

It's a difficult situation, and for once, I think Tony Blair is right when he says that Muslims in the UK have to stand up against the more radical factions instead of behaving like the East Asian version of Jesse Jackson.

Phillips, though, seems to paint all Muslims with the same terrorist brush. This solves nothing and only serves to fuel racist paranoia among white Britons.

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inkognito

In the interests of a balanced view and with freedom of speech so much in the news I believe Melanie Phillips should be allowed her voice. Anyone who listens (reads) should be aware of the bias contained within which coincidently seem to be the flyboys'. Anyone who reads should be aware that a contradictory view would instantly be labelled anti semetism. Wouldn't it be a shame if we had to chose. Of course we don't but if the lines continue to be drawn by people like this we are surely in trouble. Left/Right. Jew/Arab. Democrat/Rebublican. Zionist/Islamist. I am English but I have never considered that more than an accident of birth certainly not a cause to kill anyone who isn't.

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scuzzy160

Bigotry is such an ugly thing. It certainly stands as one of the greatest failures of humanity. It is so widespread around the globe and throughout history that one would be tempted to conclude that it is of the nature of the species. For all of our achievements and seeming enlightment you'd think we could overcome something so base.

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supermowglee(U.K.)

Right, glad you brought this point up!
Well, living in "Londonistan" is'nt as bad as this woman makes it out to be. I've never read her work because I don't read the Mail- a home for right-wing conservatives, and the fox-hunting upper class.
I love London, I love how we embrace other cultures, how we tolerate other religions. I can walk out of my door, and be five minutes from a mosque, across the road from a Protestant church, blimey there's even a sikh temple round the corner! I love how after we were hit, on the 8th, Londoners just got back on the buses and the tubes as if nothing ever happened. We've been through alot worse after all. We're no strangers to terror, from the blitz to the IRA. London will still be here, in all it's multi-cultural glory.
OK, there's abit of radicalism. So what! Surely that's the same as every big city where you have alot of differing opinions. But I would'nt live in any other city, this place is so full of history (nearly 2000years) and life. Islam is only a threat to those who don't understand it.
Marginalising people causes radicalism, that is why we try to integrate and understand immigrants. Tell me Flyboy, don't you think that is the duty of a free, responsible society?

Surely the mighty should suffer the meek?

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flyboy_fl(9FL)

inkognito~

I read your post, and it's good that, so far, we don't have to choose.

I question, however, your pairing of Zionist/Islamist.

I am hardly an authority, but I would like to suggest the following:

The aim of the Zionists is/was to re-create a home for their co-religionists. If you see, on a map of the world, the amount of (non-oil-producing) land that the State of Israel occupies, you will not that it contains a fractional part of one percent of the lands of Islam. Zionists are not now a military presence -- and even their dreams of occupying all of the Biblical land are tempered and held down by the more pragmatic inhabitants of Israel.

Islamists are different. The Islamists want the world, and want to put to the sword anyone who does not submit to their particular Allah. The Islamists are held in awe by the civilians, and are, contrariwise, an ultra-militaristic group, with no regard for human life -- theirs, or for whoever stumbles in their path (be they military, civilian, woman, or child).

If you think otherwise, tell me, please.

Be well

: )

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flyboy_fl(9FL)

super~;

You wrote: Marginalising people causes radicalism, that is why we try to integrate and understand immigrants. Tell me Flyboy, don't you think that is the duty of a free, responsible society?

I compliment you. That is a truly British question. But have you succeeded in doing so?

Point of interest. Do your schools still concentrate on making all students British -- or do you concentrate on changing your curriculum to make the newcomers more comfortable in their own languages and customs? (Remember "Goodbye Mr. Chips"?)

I love London. My London occurred during the Blitz, in the early forties. My London was a place of respite for a young kid on a weekend away from the war.

We still have friends in London, Jewish Royalists -- if you can rationalize that.

Our daughter spent half of her junior year there. She lived in a mews area, in the shadow of London. We lived in Boston, and spent many a weekend there, shopping with her, taking her to Stonehenge, etcetera, etcetera.

But your London has had a subtle, but significant transformation to me. One trip the oil-rich people from the Mid-East had appeared, en masse -- with their large families and retinues. They commandeered all of the chic shops, to the dismay of the casual traveler.

A salesperson in a wool shop on Old Bond Street, with whom I had dealt for years, excused himself and left me standing with mouth, and purse, open, as an entourage swept in.

The streets, even in Chelsea, seemed not as safe as before.

We stopped going there -- a sad loss, to us.

But you reaction to the events of one year ago this day, really were more severe, even then our Patriot Act. Or do I read wrong?

And the film by al Qaeda of your bomber contained a distinct threat to you. Or do I read wrong?

And are we in America amiss in not playing host to the burgeoning number of madrassah-type places of learning in the U.K.? It seem strange that we, in America, are sending eager Muslims to do their graduate work in terrorism to London. Or do I read wrong?

And, your writing: Surely the mighty should suffer the meek? is a real no-go situation to me. Does that mean that we should allow them to bomb us and to stretch our necks out to their swords and depend on their mercy -- and hope to gain our compensation in Heaven (maybe) -- I think not.

That's for losers.

Never again.

Be well

: )

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andie_rathbone(Tyler, TX - 7B)

But your London has had a subtle, but significant transformation to me. One trip the oil-rich people from the Mid-East had appeared, en masse -- with their large families and retinues. They commandeered all of the chic shops, to the dismay of the casual traveler.

Brad, You are pathetic! You're living in some pip-pip, cheerio dream of a London that hasn't existed for 60 years, & thank God for it. It is now one of the most vibrant cities on the planet (& thanks, to its multicultural society is finally a city where you can get good food.) Your posts continue to demonstrate how parochial your world view truly is.

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spewey

Typical, a book by a racist being touted by a racist. I doubt even Phillips could have come up with a more twisted definition of Islam that flyboy.

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scuzzy160

A song for flyboy's Londonistan

subtitle: After we kick the sh*t out of them we can bring them to see the light.

Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half-devil and half-child.

Take up the White Man's burden--
In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple,
An hundred times made plain
To seek another's profit,
And work another's gain.

Take up the White Man's burden--
The savage wars of peace--
Fill full the mouth of Famine
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
The end for others sought,
Watch sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hopes to nought.

Take up the White Man's burden--
No tawdry rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper--
The tale of common things.
The ports ye shall not enter,
The roads ye shall not tread,
Go mark them with your living,
And mark them with your dead.

Take up the White Man's burden--
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
The hate of those ye guard--
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:--
"Why brought he us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night?"

Take up the White Man's burden--
Ye dare not stoop to less--
Nor call too loud on Freedom
To cloke your weariness;
By all ye cry or whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent, sullen peoples
Shall weigh your gods and you.

Take up the White Man's burden--
Have done with childish days--
The lightly proferred laurel,
The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years
Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers!

-- R. Kipling

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supermowglee(U.K.)

Flyboy- With all due respect, you read wrong!
I really don't think you know the real London at all! London has never been a completely safe place to live, it can be a tough, hard-edged place where you can go for days without seeing even a smile on the tube. Your guy in the wool shop, he didn't leave you standing because they were rich Arabs, he left you because they were rich!
I don't expect you to understand why we try to allow people to continue to practice their own customs and religions, even in school. This is a throw-back from times past, when the sun never set on the British Empire. Fact is, the English still feel a little guilty for lording it over everybody for 120years! We want to put things right and make everybody feel that this is their country, that Britain can be the worlds' first truly multi-cultural society. We have'nt yet succeeded in this Flyboy, but we're on our way.
The Islamic community here in Tooting runs at about 30% of the population. I'm trying to learn Urdu from the geezer who runs the local shop, I can get food from all over the Eastern world here. I have been to the local council meetings and I can assure you, nobody is calling for Jewish people to be targeted in the streets!
Flyboy, now that we have such a large immigrant population, what do you suggest we do? Only a fractional minority can be considered radical, should we tar an entire people with the same brush because of just a few? This in itself can lead to a differant kind of radicalism, one I'm sure you are only too aware of having fought in the War. I speak of National Socialism, and I'd rather have a Britain without Nazi-ism thank you!

Oh- Andie, exactly when couldn't you get good food in London? If you have'nt tried jellied eels or pie'n'mash or toad in th'hole, you haven't lived!! ;)
And I suggest spotted dick for dessert, with custard!

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Pidge(Zone 6)

Hijack:

LOL, Super, about the food. All three times I've been in England, I've thought the quality fi not presentation of food available is outstanding. On one occasion, my daughter, who was studying in England, lived near Portobello Road and we could buy awesome meat and produce there. I didn't always like the way this food was prepared in restaurants, but when we made food in DD's flat, we ate exceptionally well. On another occasion, DH and I stayed in a lovely small hotel in the West End--I think it was called the Colonnade (sp?)--where every morning for breakfast I ate slices of Yorkshire ham with broiled tomatoes and whole-grain toast. My experience is too minor to make a general statement, but I did think the preparation of food has improved over time, or perhaps it's just my own developing tastes. On my most recent trip, we were traveling with a Brit who knew where the good stuff was, so all meals were really fine and some excellent. There were restaurants and pubs to which I would return in a nanosecond.

Okay, back to the program in progress.


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inkognito

I think you get my drift flyboy. The rest is merely a version of "Come into my parlour, said the sider to the fly" obscure I know, you being the spider in this case. Perhaps a change of name is called for, perhaps spiderboy or sicariidaeboy.

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supermowglee(U.K.)

Get in Pidge!! Leading back to the main topic; Flyboy, do you know that the most popular dish in England is? It's been officially recognised as our national dish...

Curry!

How's that for a statement of multi-culturalism?

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Pidge(Zone 6)

I ate Indian, Chinese, Thai, and Italian food on my most recent England trip. Earlier trips took me to Greek, Ethiopian, and all the others I just mentioned.
I guess England is like a lot of countries, including the US, where international cuisine is the norm rather than the exception.

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flyboy_fl(9FL)

There'll always be an England -- and England shall be free.

(spewey~ Start reading. I described Islamists -- or don't you know the difference.)

(andie~; Please lay off that "pathetic" $#!T. Get a thesaurus. It'll broaden your vocabulary.)

Many consider me to tend to be iconic. Yes. Guilty.

I go (went) to Britain because it was British. I did not go there in order to get Pakistani or Indian food. (I could go to Pakistan or India.)

I remember the Mirabelle and the Regents Palace and the Windmill Theatre and plaice 'n chips. Was some of the food, like bangers and mash unpalatable -- maybe. But kippered herring for breakfast was smashing.

Allow me to pontificate. Britain was British -- and people migrating there became British. America is, and always was, an amalgam. Each of our forefsthers who arrived here, came to become Americans -- but we were an amalgan -- each newcomer had something to add, which contributed to our amalgam, and made it more, and a slightly different, America.

Ask an Italian visitor. Does he come here to check out how we present Italian food? I trust not. He comes here to eat lobster and apple pie -- and wants to visit Disneyland, and New York City, and, the Grand Canyon, and, maybe, Miami Beach.

And, we don't visit Italy to check out the newest Chinese Restaurant in Rome. We go back to Sostanza'a, on a dark street in old Florence -- or to a little restaurant near the top of Monte Pertuso, outside Positano.

Maybe this forum has attracted a predominance of nouveau Citizens of the World. Good luck.

How sad it would be if the whole world lost its unique identity and we became one, greyish skinned, homogeonous race.

I'll paraphrase and repeat my earlier question. Does the British school system attempt to continue to teach the glories of its past, or knuckle under to the mea culpas pertaining to its once colonial status, in order to make it more comfortable for the newcomers who seek haven there? (And, which newcomers have no intention of morphing into British society.)

(To my disgust, Christopher Columbus, in our schools, now ranks on an even par with Al Capone, as the prime Public Enemy.)

: )

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Bill_G(PNW OR)

flyboy wrote: I question, however, your pairing of Zionist/Islamist.

I don't. I think it was an appropriate pairing. I understand your definitions, and agree Zionist influence has changed from over a half century ago when Israel was forcibly carved out, but their influence is still present, and quite militaristic. Similarly, Islamists have the same goal for the same area with the same methods making them the natural opposition to the Zionists.

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flyboy_fl(9FL)

bill_g~

Ignore facts and history. You're entitled. You're an American -- and can say whatever comes to your mind.

: (

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andie_rathbone(Tyler, TX - 7B)

Super, I'll give you one word for my early experiences with British food _ Marmite - Blech! (However DH loves it, so it must be something that you develop a taste for in the cradle.) I've been going to Britain since the 1950's as I have family there, as does DH & so forgive me if I've got memories of Whimpy's (ugh!) over-cooked veg (my Aunt Margaret's family cooked all vegetables until they were sure they were good & dead - and gray) and overcooked meat (the same relatives thought I was a barbarian because I like my beef rare). Now a good trifle is another story & I could go on and on about the glories of double cream.

But seriously, British food has come a long way & I'll give credit to the immigrants - great Indian food & ditto for the Chinese food, and now thanks to the EU & a much better economy that many of the countries on the continent, Britain is also attracting really good chefs from continental Europe.

And Brad, I've got a thesaurus, but when clueless fits you so perfectly, why bother to find another word?

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Ask an Italian visitor. Does he come here to check out how we present Italian food? I trust not. He comes here to eat lobster and apple pie...

Wrong! Usually gli italiani are fairly conservative, and don't venture too far from what they ate as they were growing up. From personal experience with visitors to Southern California, Mexican food (the new Mexican cuisine)is more appealing than "American" by which I take that you mean English/American cuisine. (Don't ask an Italian what they think of English cooking!)

Frijoles are like fagioli, tortillas like piadina, arroz like riso, and fresh ingredients similiar to what Italians eat. Cilantro can a little tricky. Avocados are almost universally liked, and I never once heard an Italian visitor mention apple pie. I can't even think of how an Italian would even know of apple pie! Generally, Italians are proud of their cuisine, especially local dishes, and certainly wouldn't spend much time thinking about American desserts.

I remember two young men from Northern Italy crying that they couldn't find pasta asciutta, and were sick of Mexican food, and refused to eat "American".

...and wants to visit Disneyland, and New York City, and, the Grand Canyon, and, maybe, Miami Beach.

Again, my experience is with visitors to Southern California - a good friend is a tour guide for Italian tourists. His tours include San Francisco, Yosemite, Las Vegas and the Grand Canyon. If there's more time, Bryce Canyon and Zion. If it's local to Los Angeles, Universal Studios and Malibu. I can't remember him ever taking a group of tourists to Disneyland. Las Vegas is extremely popular - a mystery to me when Monaco and San Marino are available to Italians. Of course, this experience is only for those taking local tours. And yes, he does receive frequent complaints about food.

And now back to the topic of bigotry.

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flyboy_fl(9FL)

andie~

What is the "clue" you accuse me of missing?

But, what I wrote is: (andie~; Please lay off that "pathetic" $#!T. Get a thesaurus. It'll broaden your vocabulary.)

Pathetic connotes "pity" as well as "contempt." Your contempt I cannot control -- it somehow relates to your history of being so tolerant of another's opinions.

But "pity." That's pure BS -- and far beyond your ability to analyze or evaluate me.

I've ofter said -- there are winners and there are losers. Don't try to decide where I fit -- and I'll tactfully refrain from doing so with you.

Hope you are well.

: )

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Bill_G(PNW OR)

I have a pretty good grasp on history Brad. Perhaps it's semantics. Are you holding to the utopian interpretation of Zionism and thinking the violence that sprang from it as something separate?

Are you trying to keep this neat and tidy by applying a narrow definition to Zionism while applying a much broader definition to Islamistism? (wink - me thinks so)

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Pidge(Zone 6)

"Lobster and apple pie"? LOL!

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flyboy_fl(9FL)

You, like many other closet thinkers, confuse Zionism with the Irgund, It was the Irgund that fought the British while waiting for the Balfour Declaration to be implemented. It was the Irgund who blew up one wing of the King David Hotel.

The Zionist ventured into the world with their minds, not weapons; and small Blue Boxes, which encouraged donations for purchasing land in the now State of Isreal.

Zionist are also confused with the Hassidim, a G-d fearing (and G-d loving) segment of Judaism who actually never bear arms.

You will never find a Zionist Army -- it is the Arab Street that takes it upon themselves to vilify that name.

Zionism does not advocate proselytization. It kills nobody. How can you ignore that Islamists want the whole world to be Muslim? And will not refrain from killing anyone who resists?

If you still think that this equates the Zionist with the Islamist -- I feel sorry for you.

But, I cannot change you. Sorry.

***************************************

Go to this link for London and Palestine. It's a little old, but still in vogue. (Turn your volume up.) Mayhaps you'd like to put it on a "qqq" thread.

: (

Here is a link that might be useful: Palestine Rally in London

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ohiomom

I have been reading this and I have to admit I am a bit bewildered .... what exactly is "american food"? Maize and buffalo? Because the dishes most of us know all came "from somewhere else" ... they are not native to this land.

Perhaps if the people of the world were all shades of brown we would not have bigotry .... oh wait a minute ... we still have that pesky my religion is better than your religion debate also. Sigh.

Peace ...

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Pidge(Zone 6)

The first thing I thought of, Ohiomom, was grits. Bet they can't wait to get here and try those babies. OOOwweeeee!

One thing about eating food in a foreign country, at least in my experience, is that one's digestive system has to get over the culture shock of different water and methods of cooking. Thus most of us are not totally adventurous, at least at first, and look for foods that are familiar and with which we can ease into an unfamiliar cuisine. For instance, I had no trouble last time I was in England because I knew what to expect from previous visits. But Barcelona was a different matter and there were some surprises, a couple of which were less than pleasant. I always opted for food that looked like and promised to be like foods to which I am already accustomed.

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flyboy_fl(9FL)

nancy~

I think we can agree that Italians are not monolithic.

My friends come from Florence -- and they head out for lobster and fried clams and to take their kids to Disneyland. They do not, repeat not, search out a local trattoria or a Chinese restaurant. (No offense, to any Asians who might be reading this thread.)

Sorry if I generalized about Italian visitors here.

I trust you will not resent if I join you in cheering on gli Azzurri, tomorrow. At last, and at least, that is something we both seem to share.

See, if one scratches deeply enough, each of us must have something in common with others. (I said "deeply enough".)

: )

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jakiesmom

Bill g, I do understand your misperceptions for equating "Zionists" and "Islamists" but it isn't the same. Islamism is religious based and Zionism was not created as a religious ideal. Additionally, there is not one definition to Zionism. Zionism, as dreamt by Theodore Herzl was based on a Jewish homeland and begun as a result of increasing anti-Semitism in Europe before Hitler but was actually a secular idealism. After which some groups broke off and created their own Zionism so now there are too many forms of Zionism to lump them as one and to do so is a mistake. But the closest we have today to Theodore Herzl's original version of Zionism is the Labor Party which are pro-peace and many are secular so they are not the antithesis of Islamists. If any of these groups come close it would be the Religious Zionists and they are a small but vocal minority.

There are General Zionists (now the Right wing Likud party), Labor Zionism (what we now know as the Left wing Labor Party), Religious Zionism (The Settlers) and Revisionist Zionists which now are basically General Zionists (sorry flyboy but the Irgun was the paramilitary arm of this form of Zionism as was the Lehi) and Reform Zionism which does not align themselves with any party but are generally left wing supporters. There are a few other Zionist groups since the new immigration. Add to that many Israeli's do not consider themselves Zionists at all and some religious also do not embrace Zionism. So you see, to lump all Israeli's as Zionists and all Zionists as one is incorrect. It would be like saying all Americans are Republicans.

In a nutshell General and Revisionist Zionists are now the Likud, the Labor Zionists are Labor party and the Religious Zionists are now the Right Wing Religious party as are the settlers.

So how can one say that Zionists and Islamists have the same goals and methods when Zionism is so diverse they don't even have the same goals and methods etc?

Then add to that there are such fundamental differences between the Palestinians and the Israeli's in so many ways -- culture, education, beliefs, and tactics that it is impossible to make a comparison of the two in such general terms.

I agree with Ohiomom, It is now all American Food and even when you go to "American restaurants" it is all influenced by other cultures including our immigrant ancestors - hotdogs from Germany, Macaroni and Cheese (Macaroni gratin) from france and there are versions of apple pie everywhere and let's not forget good ole Meatballs and spaghetti. I have never had a visitor here from overseas who came here and insisted on only eating "American" food every day. They insist on eating good food no matter what it is. Unless of course there is a restaurant that specializes in something. For example, Nathans for hotdogs or Sylvia's for "Soul Food" but they are as much a destination as a place to go for "American" food.

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Bill_G(PNW OR)

Ah, so I'm confusing Zionists and Zionism with Begin and Sharon and all the others that fought to create Israel, I'm ignoring Islamists true intent, and you're not. Got it.

I think perhaps you are too close to the situation to see it differently. You've arrived at the truth for you and cherish it too much to modify it in any way. At least now I understand the narrow definition you apply to Zionism. That's a step forward.

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Bill_G(PNW OR)

Thank you jakiesmom. I attempted to post my response to fb much earlier and have been having intermittent troubles with GardenWeb all day. So, I went out for a while. After returning, I was finally able to hit preview/submit, and thus missed your thoughtful response. We could all take a lesson from you on explaining things.

I wasn't equating Islamists and Zionists per se, but agreeing with inkognito's catagorizing them together as natural antagonists like Democrats and Republicans in his post now much above this one. ( Left/Right. Jew/Arab. Democrat/Rebublican. Zionist/Islamist.) However, I accept your explanation too. There are many things I do not know or fully understand about modern Israel because so often it is explained with a stick and a pounding determination to ferret your alligences before giving any information (iffn ya know what I mean what I mean).

And if fb accepts your explanation as definitive, then we have taken yet another step forward.

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inkognito

Bravo bill. Nice one. Jakiesemom has indeed taken us a step forward. My point really was that any 'ism' is in opposition to all other 'ism's' so the Zion or Islam is the same as Fasc or Naz or Marx.

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jakiesmom

Thanks Billg, and I do know what you mean.

And Igkonito, I also understand the point you were making.

I posted because I know that it is not clear to many what a Zionist is so I thought I would throw it out there to maybe clear up the word if nothing else. The word Zionism is now used as a "dirty" word and most people think that all Zionists are like the Settlers or hear it in the context of "Zionist oppressors" because that is what the press has put out there but in truth there are many different types of Zionists including left leaning. So it just mucks it up even more when we lump people together. But I certainly understood your point. To think that anything in that region is as black and white as Jew/Arab or Zionist/Islamist is just wrong. If only it was that simple.

It never ceases to amaze me the difference that I see and hear when I am there compared to what is reported by our media so I understand why some people have a misunderstanding of what is going on there. I can tell you firsthand that most of what you see on all the news reports is only half truths and if you were to go there you would see it for yourself and you would be amazed at the bias from both sides - I truly believe that no one tells the real story so people understand it and it does no one justice. It just polarizes people rather than try to help bring understanding to the situation. Soundbites don't cut it. The Israeli's are not all warmongers and not all Palestinians are terrorists. Now the next time someone comes up to you and says "Hi, I am a Zionist" you are going to know to ask him "what kind?". LOL.

I agree with you regarding ism's. Even the best of them tend to wind up being "the road to h@ll was paved with good intentions".

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Step into a Ferguson Showroom and you'll be surrounded by the latest styles in kitchen, bath and lighting design... Read More
Step into a Ferguson Showroom and you'll be surrounded by the latest styles in kitchen, bath and lighting design... Read More