Hi blazepepper - I'd go with turning it over and mixing in. Clay soil has lots of good nutrients and also helps with water retention (raised beds drain faster than in-ground - so you don't want to lose those benefits. I'd also skip any liner as that only creates a stagnant pool under the bed as it interferes with needed drainage.

I'm not sure I understand your #2 question? It all depends on what you plan to fill the beds with. Why not check out this FAQ What do I use to fill my garden beds... It's on the square foot gardening forum and there is more helpful info there too. Also check out the Soil, Compost & Mulch Forum as there are many discussions there about soil mixtures for raised beds.

Hope this helps.

Dave

PS: With 3 tomato and 3 pepper plants in a 6' bed you'll want some really nutrient rich filler as that will be a bit more crowded than usually recommended (36" on center). Another good reason to check out the Square Foot Gardening forum for good tips on how to cram more into less space and be successful. ;)

I can only tell you what I did.

I dug up the clay and mixed in lots of amendment and
turned it over lots. Also put in as much coffee grounds
that I could get ahold of and put grass clippings on top
all summer long.

It's taken me two years, but now I have pretty good soil.

I wouldn't go with a liner. You're creating an unnatural
situation there. No drainage.

Two months is a very short time to expect good soil. Sure,
you could add lots of topsoil to that area and that would
help a lot. But it would be pricy.

Thanks for the replies so far. Well I guess I don't have much of a choice, given that I'd like to plant in 2 months.
What if I go to Home Depot or lowes and buy the compost that they sell in bags? Would that be a good start? Or should I just buy bagged garden soil that is already amended? If so, what else should I mix in? Coffee grounds? I've heard a lot of talk about rabbit and chicken manure. Again, my goal here is to have some good soil to plant in in a couple of months, even if I have to buy it at the store. Thanks for the help, I'm an obvious newby here.

I just built a little raised bed for my veggies this spring. Used 4x4's, 3 high, and its 6 and 1/2 feet by 4 and 1/2 feet. I plan to get 3 tomatoe plants in the back and 3 or 4 pepper plants up front...BP, I do not grow in raised beds. However, even though your bed may look small it will still require more than 2000# of typical soil "stuff" to fill it. Dragging back 60# bags of compost or soil from HD or Lowe's would require several trips unless you have a trailer or a truck. Moreover, it would get rather dear. I would suggest that you first try to locate a bulk source of topsoil and compost (cow, horse... even if not fully composed, that is OK) that is relatively close to you. And then find somebody to haul it to your place (only a small pickup would be needed). I would suggest ~ a 2:8 ratio of compost to soil, mixed together (depending upon the quality of the "topsoil"). And if practical get some extra compost (to keep in a pile or in barrels), to reserve for subsequent soil amendments.

After each season I try to add ~4# of compost (lightly mixed in) per square foot to maintain nutrient concentrations. So, for your bed, that would be ~120#.

Reg

Reg, is that 2000 lbs?? Wow, maybe I was to quick to think I could fill it with store bought soil/compost??
Anybody else have any suggestions? I do not know of a good local source for anything in that bulk.

Reg is right that store bought bags isn't the way to go with filling a bed - that approach would break your back and break the budget. So you'll definitely need to scout out some bulk suppliers of soil, compost, leaf mold, mushroom compost, etc. - check the lawn/garden classified newspaper ads, yellow pages, the local county extension office often lists suppliers, local gardeners, local nurseries, quarries, farms, the city/county municipality (often have compost), etc. Many times filler can be gotten for free with just the hauling fee.

Sorry but it's time to do some hot and heavy homework to be ready for planting. Good luck. ;)

Dave

Forgot to mention - The Georgia gardening Forum - folks there can likely put you on to local/regional bulk suppliers.

Here is a link that might be useful: Georgia Gardening Forum

You need a little less than a yard. Figure about 24 cubic feet. The little bags at HD and Lowes are about a cubic foot and weigh about 30 pounds and up depending on what's in them. You would need about twenty four little bags which would be three or four trips depending on the size of your trunk. If it's on the way home from work just stop by and buy a few bags every day for a week or so.

You could get a mix of products. *Top Soil* here at Home Depot is about $1.95 per one cubic foot bag. That would cost you about fifty bucks. Read the ingredients. Top soil should have some actual dirt/sand in it and be a little heavier than some of the soil amending products.

You could mix in some *potting soil* but you'll pay more, maybe double.

You should be able to get a nice mix using *top soil*, potting soil and compost from the box stores mixed with a little of your native soil for between $50 and $100.

If you have only clay buy a few bags of sand from the box stores (heavier than the compost products) and mix it with your clay and the compost products.

Zeuspaul

I built two, roughly 8x8 ft beds in very clayey soil and would counsel patience, even if you are ready to pay lots of money for fresh, perfect soil. And remember your three 4 by 4s stack up 10.5 inches above the natural surface, so you still need to dig up or mix in some native soil if you want a decent depth for root growth.

Any addition of compost, even the bagged stuff, will help. My method was to turn 12 inches of native soil and mix in about 12 bags of composted manure mix (at about a dollar a bag). You could add even more compost if your bed is high enough. The first year's results were very good (tomatoes, peas, pole beans, various greens). For the next 2 years I turned in 8 bags of compost per bed, then four. The soil just gets better and better.

It can be surprising how well plants do in less than perfect soil, and perfect soil doesn't guarantee a good crop.

Wow, thanks for all of the replies. Well it sounds like I would be able to do it bag by bag if I wanted, but it might cost a little bit. i guess to control cost, I need to find a good spot to dig up some of my own native soil, then use store bought top soil, store bought compost, and store bought manure. I've seen Cow manure in bags at home depot, is this a good idea?

If it was me, I would strongly consider pruning each tomato vine to a single stem also, and then plant as close as 2 ft. apart, and stake them.

Peppers should do ok planted as close as 2 ft. apart also.

I would go into the woods and bag up gobs of leaves this fall and till thoroughly into your bed this fall too.....but not until after you harvest your tomatoes this summer.

Good woods dirt is great too, if you have access to some.

The steer manure at Home Depot is about 90 cents a bag around here. It is composted with some addition of bedding. They are one cubic foot bags so twenty four would fill your bed but you don't want pure manure.

It still smells like manure. Be careful transporting in a nice car...best in the back of a pick up truck. I would be inclined to age it or compost it some more before using on vegetables.. It's probably the most economical way to go.

Tomatoes like well drained soil. If you mix a lot of manure with your clay soil you will not have good drainage. Manure plus your clay plus sand would make a nice mix but it may be a bit too raw.

If you want something ready in a couple of months for vegetables I would stay away from the manure. Top soil mixed with compost and potting soil would be good to go right away.

It's hard to overcome the costs of transportation with small amounts of bulk products. I can have one yard of good top soil delivered here for $75 plus $20 for the soil. It would be the same $75 transportation for ten yards. You pay the same transportation cost for a small load as you do for a full load.

Zeuspaul

Well, thanks again for all of the great replies. I think I now have a pretty good plan. To start, they are building a new subdivision behind my land and there are mounds and mounds of native soil/clay, looks like I'll be doing some whell barrowing when the crews arent at work. I'll then add to that top soil and compost (bags from depot) until full. Then I'll plant and grow my veggies this year, and when I'm done I'll begin my own composting in the box for even better soil next year. sound like a plan??
-last question, should I till up the soil/clay on the bottom of my box now, or leave it as is (compacted) and go over it with my "plan". I read somewhere that tilling it up could disturb it or something.

Thanks again for all of the great info, i've really got the garden feaver!!

I'm in the same boat, with a 3' x 8' x 1' raised bed. To save time and money, I was planning to use pure native soil (nothing special, nothing awful) around the perimeter and between my three tomato plants, leaving three holes about 2' in diameter to fill with a premium mix (I've got Kellogg Amend, Kellogg Garden Soil, and some of my own compost to mix with my soil for the holes). Do I really need to fill the entire bed with great soil?

How about chicken wire on the bottom of the bed? Important?

Thanks in advance!

All right, well I did it,well, at least I began the process, I went to HD last night, purchased 8, 40 lbs bags of tob soil, and 4 bags of mushroom compost. 1st I tilled up my native soil with a ground hog tool, then mixed everything else on top. Surpisingly it filled the entire box almost 3/4 of the way to the top. I'm sure it will settle as I continue to turn it over, but As of now, it doesnt look like I'll have much more filler to add. As for the last question, There are a lot of folks on here that will have you strive for the perfect soil, and I'm trying, but i have friends who simply use cheap top soil, or native soil w/o any amending, and they seem to do just fine.
Thanks again for all of the help. Seeing that box fill up has me ready to plant, but I'll try to be patient!

There are a lot of folks on here that will have you strive for the perfect soil, and I'm trying, but i have friends who simply use cheap top soil, or native soil w/o any amending, and they seem to do just fine.

Hmmmmmm. blaze - Advice is asked for and advice, based on what we have all learned from our own experiences, is freely given but "perfect soil"??? Likely it doesn't exist. Still many of us have to learn for ourselves the importance of soil preparation and what works and what doesn't. Each gardener has to decide what degree of effort vs. success they want.

I'm glad to hear your filling is moving along and I wish you good luck in your gardening experiences. Oh, and good luck to your friends too. They will need it ;).

Dave

statconsultants - there is nothing at all wrong with using native soil if you have it available. Those of us who garden in-ground rather than in raised beds do it all the time. ;) But we do amend it regularly because the results you get will depend on the type and quality of your native soil + amended mix. So you might want to consider getting a soil test done. That way you'll know what may or may not be needed to add to it. Chicken wire - I know many use it to keep out the gophers etc. I never have as I don't have a problem with them.

went to HD last night, purchased 8, 40 lbs bags of tob soil, and 4 bags of mushroom compost. 1st I tilled up my native soil with a ground hog tool, then mixed everything else on top...Reads good to me. But the thing will tend to get compacted when it receives some rain. You really need to avoid the cube turning into a large adobe brick. So for this season I recommend not much more topsoil. Mostly just OM additions (mixed in) to bring it up to the height you want.

Reg

digdirt
didn't mean to ruffle any feathers, and maybe I didn't word it correctly, but what I meant was, basically, that I know people who don't put a dimes worth of effort into the soil, and they still get fruits. I of course, and trying my best to get even better than that. I appreciate every bit of advice I've received, but was only trying to answer his question with some knowledge that was past on to me. But again, for me, I'm striving for as "perfect" soil as I can achieve, with the limitied budget, space, and time that I have.

Thanks, all. That helps. I won't bother with the chicken wire for now. I mixed in some of my premature compost about 8-10 inches beneath the bed, then I filled it more or less as I described above, with 2 cubic feet of Amend and Organic Garden Soil devoted to each plant, and room for about 2 inches of Grow Mulch on top of the whole bed. I'll add a big batch of compost once or twice a year and hopefully the whole bed will be as exquisite within a few years as my three planting holes are now.

Ok, just one more question,,, I think. So my bed is made, and I plan to continue to turn more compost into it. My question is, exactly how often between now and 2.5 mos from now when I plant, should I turn the bed? As of today, my bed appears over 3/4 full with 8 40 lb bags of topsoil and 6 bags of mushroom compost. Should I add more before planting? And what exactly does it mean to "turn the bed"?
thanks again ,

Bobby

how often between now and 2.5 mos from now when I plant, should I turn the bed?...Compaction of "soil" is the main concern here. So you do not want to render it to a size consist such that it will more readily pack. More OM is what I think you should add. Mix it in and let the heap sit. Even a few inches over the top of the bed would be fine.

Reg

I also agree with the problem of the soil compacting. I really recommend Mel's Mix (the Square Foot Gardening Guy) 1/3 compost; 1/3 vermiculite; 1/3 peat. I think it would be a good idea if you added some vermiculite (Home Depot in 4 cubic foot bags) and some spagnum peat to keep the soil more light and fluffy and to keep it from compacting. The roots of your veggies will need air.

Or Perlite instead of vermiculite. It's a little cheaper in my neck of the woods, though I prefer the look of vermiculite. Perlite looks like tiny bits of styrofoam in your garden! But I'm using it this year instead to lighten up the soil in my beds.

Anney,

with the size of my raised be (6.5 x 4.5), how much Perlite or vermiculite should I need?

thanks

Bobby,

Estimate it so that it's around 1/3 of the fill material. Maybe 2-3 cubic feet for a bed that size? I can get 4 cubic feet of Perlite for $10.00 and the same amount of vermiculite for about $10.50.

a few thoughts to add to this excellect discussion. Does no one add sand? I've heard pros & cons. Also when you bury manure deeper than 8 inches it naturally mixes in with the soil well even if it's fresh. different animals produce manure with differnt nutrients. fowl from turkey and chicken farms and processing plants are super high in nitrogen but will grown giant greens and broccoli or burn up everything. You can get horse manure from stables and people who keep horses. Sheep and cow stuff from dairies and slaughter houses. Check with 4-H they can tell you who is raising animals and would love to get rid of all kinds of poop.
I get great leaf mold in the fall when people leave bags of leaves on curbs in plastic bags. the leaves age just fine left alone in the bags all winter long. I've had difficulty with large amounts of pete moss in that it blows around quickly. If you can get neighbors un treated lawn clippings they are very good with some extra nitrogen.

Does no one add sand?...A bit of sand is OK, but know that it will remain in soil forever. OM stuff is a dynamic ingredient that is not inert and therein lies its benefit. It lives and thrives and dies and so do your plants... both in a surely positive way.

Reg

Should I add more before planting?

Most definitely. As Reg said above, a few inches above the top of the sides would be ideal. Compaction and decomposition will quickly lower the level and too little to begin with will result in exposed roots and toppling plants.

Dave

Wow, I never thought this post would start such an involved thread. I think I have a pretty good idea of what I need to do now. I think I'm off to a pretty good start and have a good game plan in mind, thanks to you folkls. Good luck to all this year with your veggies!!

Does no one add sand?

Yes, extension agent recommended 70% sand and 30% muck (our top soil) for raised beds. Took an organic gardening class taught by commercial farmer and he said the same thing. You do need to amend with compost and of course fertilize.

Blazepepper, good luck with your garden. I do think that the advise of perlite or something to lighten your dense mix is a good one.

Ok, I'm well on my way now, and several more questions have come up, and i'm sure I'll find my answers here:
1) My bed sort of looks like it has a lot of small wood chips and such in it, almost like a wood mulch mix. maybe
some of this was in the top soil I used,not sure. I just
thought it would look more like soil, or potting soil that
you buy in bags? Should I keep adding to it?
2) Should I be watering the bed at all at this point, or
just relying on mother nature?

thanks

Any takers on my last question? Thanks

No, no need to water an unplanted bed. It'll rain on it and settle it down. After planting your crops you can mulch between the rows or plants.