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dan_staley

My EarthTainer Project - Mistakes Made / Lessons Learned (Con't)

Jleiwig replied:
If you thought it was way too flimsy, you had too much other junk in your mix, or too much water I'd guess.

I didn't even fill with mix yet, but I've been known to overengineer everything....

And I'm glad to hear your opinion on the mosquitoes - I can't imagine this being anything but rare, and I don't like the look of caps on my filler tubes. Thank you.

Dan

Comments (150)

  • big_alan
    15 years ago

    Raybo,

    If people wish to use the ¼ inch cages and chose to use the removable cages they will need to use ¼ tap and die sets plus ¼ wire rope clamps, to tie it all together.

  • bdobs
    15 years ago

    Hey guys.
    I made my first "prototype" 'Tainer with some 54" sturdy cages I found at Target of all places. They were $12 each, but worth the peace of mind for me :)
    Nice, thick and plastic coated.
    They have short legs in relation to the Glamos ones, but this actually works out perfectly for the removable leg system

    I followed Rabo's EXCELLENT instructions to the T, but I wanted to utilize Big Alans idea for the removable cages.

    I ended up picking up 1/4"x36" All Thread Rods at $1.65/each from HD. I then cut these down to 18" each so I could get two leg supports per.
    I used two 1/4" nuts and two 1/4"x 1 1/4" fender washers(one top and one bottom) per leg to secure them to the 'Tainer aeration bench.
    I Filled the 'Tainer and with the help of my brother, I secured the legs of the cages to the thread rods
    by utilizing one 3/16" wire rope clamp and one zip tie per. I love zip ties by the way :)
    Like in Raybo's original cage idea, I used one 3/16" wire clamp on the 3rd ring tier, and a couple zip ties on the top rings set that overlap

    Another benefit of the removable cages is that I ended up getting 55" of cage above the soil line

    The cages ended up being extremely stout. I wouldnt try, but I'd bet I could lean the entire filled 'Tainer by pulling on the top of the cage. There is no play on the junction of the legs and the leg suports. I feels like is all one piece


    {{gwi:14781}}

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  • rnewste
    15 years ago

    bdobs,

    Really nice looking job!!

    What is the diameter of the top hoop? How did you fastern the 2 cages together? I assume at hoopsets #3?

    It would be interesting to see if you could connect the cage leg to the threaded shaft with a "collar" with set screws, so that the two shafts would just touch each other. That would give you another 6" of cage height.

    Looks like you had to bend the Target cage legs outward. How did you do that process?

    Sorry for all the questions - - but Excellent work!!

    Raybo

  • bdobs
    15 years ago

    Raybo

    10", 12", 14", 16"

    One wire clamp at the third hoopset and two zip ties at the top overlap.

    I had the same thoughts on fastening the cages with the legs butted up to the leg supports. I was thinking about trying to locate some sort of coupler that would have threaded slip joints, with one being reverse thread. In the end I figured this method would probably be stronger.

    I have all the supplies for three more caged 'Tainers in my garage, so I mayyyyyy play around with the attachments of the legs a bit.

    As far as spreading the legs...I just grabbed em and spread them out a little. It was more of an art than a science to that that.

    I did learn from my prototype that its better off to drill the leg support holes a tad more biased towards the center of the aeration bench than to the edge. I noticed a few of the leg supports wanted to flar outwards once I tightened dow the nuts, but not a problem in the end

  • bdobs
    15 years ago

    Raybo

    Along the lines of your Incu-tainers, I was thinking of using the leftover top portion from the bench to use as a sort of open coldframe.
    Do you think it would help on these still chilly nights to use that portion inverted on the Tainers. They would be around the cages so a top would be difficult. I figure it would block any wind and frigid breezes.
    They jusssst barely fit over my cages, but for an easier time I am thinking of making a verticle cut down the long side so they can be opened and closed around the cages. A couple holes and zipties would keep it closed

  • rnewste
    15 years ago

    bdobs,

    Here is the type of coupler that I was thinking about:

    {{gwi:1300011}}

    Here is another example of one that is counter-threaded to connect two threaded shafts:

    {{gwi:1300012}}

    While these are "industrial strength" items, I am trying to find a product that would be affordable, like at Home Depot. Think of the conduit connectors with 2 external screws that lock both sections together - - that is what I am thinking about - - but for 1/4" shafts.

    Regarding moving the holes in the aeration bench inward, be careful as the strongest "hard-points of the bench are located at its outer edges. One thought I had is that you do not need to torque down the nut on the underside of the bench, as all the weight is focused downward onto the bench. Think about using a lock nut on the underside shaft and just tighten it so that the upper shaft can be at an angle to be parallel with the bent legs of the cage. When you then mount both cages, they will tension up without any play.

    Maybe Big Alan has some ideas on inexpensive shaft couplings that would do the job.

    Raybo

  • rnewste
    15 years ago

    bdobs,

    With your top hoopsets at 16" diameter instead of the Glamos' 18" diameter, you may want to consider attaching the top hoopsets together with the wire rope clip, instead of at hoopset #3. That would move your cages outward toward the handles of the 'Tainer, which may line up better with the "hard-points" of the aeration bench.

    Raybo

  • lah_jay
    15 years ago

    If the Target cage legs could be threaded as Big Alan suggests for others, you could use an extension nut to couple them to the appropriately sized threaded rod, with a locknut for insurance if desired. I'm pretty sure these are available at Orchard Supply and will check this weekend as I've just about picked up all of my supplies for 4 containers. I imagine Home Depot and Lowes have these as well - see below for an example of what I'm thinking of.

    Jay

    Here is a link that might be useful: McMaster-Carr hex coupling nuts

  • rnewste
    15 years ago

    lah,

    The link did not work for me. Can you verify it?

    Raybo

  • lah_jay
    15 years ago

    Sorry about that - thought I had messed up the link but the McMaster website is down at the moment (lots of various hardware for those interested). I found another that should illustrate the idea:

    Here is a link that might be useful: Bolt Depot coupling nuts

  • rnewste
    15 years ago

    One "Tip" I forgot to put in the Rev 1.6 instructions is to apply WD40 or Vasaline ot the threads of the Toggle Bolt. This helps when you want to disassemble the 'Tainer:

    {{gwi:1300013}}

    Raybo

  • johnny_tomato_seed
    15 years ago

    Thanks for info about tomato tone Raybo. I am definitely heading to Yamagami's tomorrow to pick up a few sun golds. I should suggest they sell tomato tone. Keep the ideas coming.

  • bdobs
    15 years ago

    Raybo
    Regarding the placment of the holes to attach the cages. I just meant towards the center by 1/8th inch or so. A couple of my holes were almost on the edge.

    Funny you mention moving the clamp to the top hoop. Exactly what I was thinking last night when I was looking at the box

  • bdobs
    15 years ago

    Hey All

    I just went to Navalets in Martinez to pick up some soil for my raised bed and looky looky here...

    GLAMOS HD 18x54 cages!!!!!!!!!!!

    But....$11.99 each...Navalets isnt cheap for anything.

    For the same price I am happy with mine from Target.

  • rnewste
    15 years ago

    bdobs,

    You definitely made the right call vs. Navalets. The 5 hoop 56" by 20" cages at Yamagamis are a far better deal (if you want to mount the cages in the conventional way) than Navalet's terrible price on the Glamos cages.

    Do a test and attach your Target cages at the top hoopsets and see if the legs line up better with the aeration bench hardpoints.

    Yes, you will have to bend the legs outward, but you may not have to bend them on a "diagonal" to align with the hardpoints.

    Raybo

  • earthworm73
    15 years ago

    Raybo OT but I see you don't use a plastic mulch/cover on your boxes so how do you incorporate the fertilizer?

  • rnewste
    15 years ago

    earthworm,

    Oh indeed, but I do use the black mulch on "production" 'Tainers:

    {{gwi:28845}}

    We are under a mandatory 15% water reduction this year, so I am hoping the mulch will cut down on the evaporation.

    Raybo

  • bdank
    15 years ago

    Raybo,
    I have yet another question for you.
    I notice that in one of your photos it looks like you have 10-12 tomato plants in one 'tainer. I was wondering why there are so many in one 'tainer. Are those future transplants?

  • rnewste
    15 years ago

    bdank,

    I employ the "cold treatment method" which is claimed to produce conditions where the plant will produce more flowers (fruit). See link below. There are 15 plants per "Incu-Tainer" that went in from seedlings on Feb 20 to the outside. I use aquarium heaters to keep the water reservoir at 78 degrees, plus use cold frame covers at night.

    {{gwi:1300016}}

    I will be planting these into their individual 'Tainers on March 29-30, 2 per 'Tainer.

    Raybo

    Here is a link that might be useful: Cold Treatment Method

  • bdank
    15 years ago

    That's interesting, Ray. Do you have trouble getting the root systems out of there when you're ready to transplant?

  • bdobs
    15 years ago

    Raybo

    Are you going to be giving your guys any additional protection with your early plant out?
    I am thinking I may plant out next Friday.

    Brian

  • rnewste
    15 years ago

    Brian,

    No, they have been hardening off for the past 30 days outside, and are pretty sturdy now. Taking off the cold-frames during the day has exposed them to wind, so this seems to have strengthened them in the process. Fortunately, no freeze here since the end of December this year.

    Raybo

  • bdobs
    15 years ago

    Raybo

    I was just looking through your section on the modifications to the AWS system.
    You say to cut the fill tube down to 16" and lengthen the clear AWS tube to 12.5".
    Since I have already installed the 19" fill tube on my first Tainer, I am assuming I can simply make the clear tube in the AWS 15.5" to compensate???

  • rnewste
    15 years ago

    bdobs,

    Yes, you could experiment with a longer clear tube, but remember, it works on Bernoulli's Principle of air pressure within the "bell". If you lengthen the tube too much, it may impact where the valve switches off.

    My suggestion is to pull out the 19" tube and cut it down to 16". I take out filler tubes all the time. Just make sure your potting mix is moist, then press the tube outward against the potting mix (from the 9:00 o'clock position to the 3:00 o'clock position). Then simply lift out the tube. Have a 16" one ready to re-insert and you shouldn't have very much potting mix falling down into the aeration bench. Trust me - - it works!!!!

    Raybo

  • big_alan
    15 years ago

    KISS = KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID.

    The above is not meant to offend or call any one here stupid, but in my opinion the easy way to attach the cages is with wire rope clips. (For the removable cage system).

    1. Using a turnbuckle to attach each leg 1 leg right hand thread the lower half left hand thread.
    2. Coupling nuts lower leg must be loose enough to rotate to thread in the upper cage.
    3. Couplers with set screws would work.

    BUT all of this cost more any will not improve upon the overall strength

    IMHO the plants will not care how the legs are attached as long as they are supported.

    Big Alan

  • rnewste
    15 years ago

    Big Alan,

    The idea was to connect the legs with the threaded rod at their ends as this would give the cage system another 6" of height.

    Raybo

  • johnny_tomato_seed
    15 years ago

    I got my Actinovate, blue label last night.

    Never been so happy to see bateria before ;-).

    Man, those cages are impossible to find. I am thinking just buying a few black cylinder plastic containers and throwing the 24" texas tomato cage over it.

  • siamack
    15 years ago

    I bought Actinovate at Garden Variety Organics (link below) for $18.95 and shipping from Tx to Ca was around $3.

    If you are going to order from them call Dewan. Their shopping cart has a glitch where it charges sales tax for out of state orders.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Actinovate at Garden Variety

  • bdobs
    15 years ago

    Siamack
    Navalets in Martinez has the Glamos cages, but they are $12/each

    I paid a bit more, what what the hay. I ordered my Actinovate from Harris Seeds. $28 shipped. Now, how long will it take to arrive??????

  • bdank
    15 years ago

    Siamack,
    I ordered the Actinovate from Harris Seeds on Sunday March 22 and it arrived on Friday March 27th.

  • bdobs
    15 years ago

    ABout a week eh??
    I'm way on the left in Cali so it may take longer. At least I'm not dependant on for planting.
    I NEED to plant my guys soon. They are now officially getting to big.
    Its only been 7 weeks since I sowed, but they arelike a foot tall now.

    Big shift off planned!
    I'm off the next four days so
    Tomorrow is 'Tainer building day. 4 to go. Cant wait.
    Thursday I plan on tapping into my sprinker main to T a faucet into it to run my AWS and drip system
    Friday is planting day!!!!!

  • rnewste
    15 years ago

    bdobs,

    One thing I would recommend with your AWS is to put a battery operated timer valve in series with the line going to the pressure valve. I set mine to turn open 30 minutes per day to provide water to the AWS units. They usually refill within 15 minutes.

    Reason is if I am traveling, etc. if a water tube breaks or comes off the individual AWS nipple, then the maximum water wasted would be limited to 30 minutes per day, until I discovered the leak. With water rationing here in Cali this year, it is a safe precaution to consider.

    Raybo

  • bdobs
    14 years ago

    Thanks for the idea Raybo.
    In fact, I found a nice setup from Orbit at costco the other week. It consists of a 4 way faucet splitter, battery operated 4 zone timer and three included valves.
    I will be running an inline 200 mesh filter with the AWS, as I dont want to risk those little AWS valves to clog with any crud.

    Tomorrow I plan on T into my underground sprinkler main to add an inline faucet I will run the drip system off of.
    One for the AWS, one for my raised bed soaker, and the last for my 4 Tomatoes not in Tainers.

    Four tainers with the removable cages built and one Mini Tainer build for my peppers out of a 25g. Roughneck.
    Peppers have done great for my brother in his Earthbox, so they should do even better in my MiniTainer!!

    Brian

  • siamack
    14 years ago

    A while ago I saw a post about this but can't find it now.

    Anyone having problems with bugs/flies getting into the water reservoir? I topped off one of the units yesterday and as the water reached the overflow hole, little bugs started to crawl out of the hole.

    Any none chemical based suggestions?

  • vmckague
    14 years ago

    If anyone is looking for the large tomato cages ,Ace Hardware has them at 3.99 each. I don't know if Ace is nation wide or not but they are in Missouri. Just thought someone might like to know.

  • big_alan
    14 years ago

    Here is a photo of the treetainer (with Key Lime Tree) and another of the trailer with some tomatos on it. Taken yesterday.

  • rnewste
    14 years ago

    Big Alan,

    You could tow the TainerTrailer to the local Farmer's Market and let folks pick their own tomatoes......

    Raybo

  • bdobs
    14 years ago

    Ray

    Do you reccomend adding the Actinovate at planting?

  • rnewste
    14 years ago

    bdobs,

    Only my second year of using Actinovate (maybe Ami has more experience with it and can comment), but I am adding it within a few days of planting out. Will then add again in another 1 month. While I am adding it to ALL of my tomato plants (no "A/B" test this year as I am so convinced on how good it works), I will be doing some CornTainers with, and without Actinovate as a trial.

    Raybo

  • bdobs
    14 years ago

    I'm adding to all 12 of mine too. I guess I will add it today at planting as I normally do one soil drench at planting.

    Did your plants do OK last night? Got reallllly cold here last night. 42 I think. Forcast shows the lowest night in the next week to be 48.
    Out to plant :)

  • big_alan
    14 years ago

    Raybo;
    When I do a search on "earthtainer" on the gargenweb site it will list the various pages, but when I click on them it will not go them but gives a message file missing.

    The only way I could get to this page is because I had it book marked. Are any others having the same problem?

    Alan

  • bdobs
    14 years ago

    BigAlan
    I had the same problem, but from reading other threads it sounds like the search option is down here at Gardenweb

  • bdobs
    14 years ago

    Alright guys, Finished them Friday, planted out Sat!
    4 'Tainers for Toms and one 25g Tainer for peppers



  • whipsnade
    14 years ago

    Raybo,
    I built my 5 tainers to your specs and the plants have been in the tainers for a week. My concern is that when I check the moisture with my $12 moisture meter it reads as wet in all 5. I'm not sure if it is the meter or if the mix is indeed too moist. I'm using the same wicking basket that you recommend. Also I'm using MG potting mix without the moisture control. I live in So Cal and the weather been in the low 70's during the day.
    Any ideas or suggestions?

  • rnewste
    14 years ago

    After filling the 'Tainer and saturating it with water to insure proper wicking, it will take a few weeks for the moisture level to stabilize. I would expect in the cooler weather now, you will get a higher moisture level indication. In the middle of the Summer when the plants are drinking a gallon a day or more, the moisture meter should return to a more "Moist" range.

    Also, some of these inexpensive meters don't actually measure moisture content, but rely on an electrical current going through the soil, and "indicate" relative moisture level.

    Raybo

  • bencjedi
    14 years ago

    I am about ready to construct my 3 ETs thanks to Ray helping me out with the wicking baskets. I am going to try the removable cages. Home Depot sells the 24" 1/4" threaded rods for $1.47.
    Unlike bdobs, my local store sells the 36" ones for $5.87 each! , so needless to say I went with the shorter ones. I don't think I am even going to cut them.. I just hope they are not too heavy to adversely affect the cage support system and the aeration bench. The extra length above the soil might help a little for the taller tomato plants too. Then again..with enough twisting patience, I could twist the nut high enough on the bottom of the rod where the reservoir is to give some stilt-like support to the bench. That will give 8 points of 4" extra support in addition to the 4" cut drain pipe pieces for the bench. This might not be a bad idea since I am using the cheaper, thinner Sterlite totes ($7.50 each at Walmart). I don't want that cage system to jab a hole through the bottom of the reservoir, so I'm trying to come-up with a cheap way to add protective 'shoes' to the bottom of the rods. Possibly soda caps from 2-litter bottles of Coke can be 'shoes' glued to them.

    I bought the Glamos cages a few years ago at Walmart and accidentally took almost double. When I got home and was pulling the cages apart I noticed my mistake. I returned the extras to Walmart, but I bet that happens very commonly, especially when Walmart just asks you to run out and pull the UPC off one of them and run back to the check-out and asks you for quantity. Ooops! My cages are bent at the 'feet' from trying too hard to jam them through subsurface slabs of limestone deep in my garden, so when I get pictures up to share, don't be surprised by the artsy-look of the randomly re-formed shape of my cages.

  • bdobs
    14 years ago

    What about taking some large size erasers and screwing the rods into them a little? Remember that the thread rods are not going to be sitting perfectly perpendicular to the bottom of the tote.

    Oh, and watch out for the thread rods sticking up when your filling the boxes. I was bleeding from numeruos places on my fore arms after filling my 'Tainers...ouch

  • bencjedi
    14 years ago

    Thanks bdobs for the insight. I actually returned the 24" ones to Home Depot after work when I went over to Lowes and found the 36" ones for only 20 cents more. I'm going to do the 18" rods like you have done. I can't believe Home Depot is so much more expensive for the 3-footers than Lowes. Ridiculous! The die tap would have been good, but I am only building 3 ETs right now and I think there will be added rigidity to the cage system by using the rods anyhow. I may still screw the rods down to give the 4" stilts in the reservoir and use erasers as shoes. The cheapskate in me is considering making wooden 'shoes' out of scrap blocks of wood for the bottom of the rods. My wire rope clamps might be at the surface of the soil judging by your pic. Thanks for the safety tip. I'm liable to cut myself, so I'll be extra careful.

  • rnewste
    14 years ago

    Maybe I don't understand the mounting system for the threaded rod to the aeration bench you are trying to use. I believe Big Alan simply used 2 washers and 2 nuts to secure the rod to the bench. The bottom of the rod should not touch the bottom of the container - - it should be no more then 1 inch below the aeration bench, so no rubber eraser or other "foot" is needed.

    If you are attempting to rest the threaded rods on the floor of the container, be warned that any weight on the legs (cages) will eventually poke a hole through the soft LDPE plastic. You instead want this weight distributed across the aeration bench by mounting the legs on the 8 hard-points of the bench. Big Alan or bdobs, please confirm.

    Raybo

  • big_alan
    14 years ago

    Raybo, I simply use 2 nuts and 2 washers per leg to attach to the aeration bench.