If anyone can make the pictures show up please help me.

Also, on a side note I did find out that one bag of that potting soil can fill about 80 16 oz cups, or maybe a few extra on top of that.

Hello As I was not able to view your pics I will still offer somee advice and that is it has been my experience that you are asking for trouble by starting seedlings in potting soil. Thats ok for potting up later but not for seed germination. Should use a seed starting mixture.

Here are your pictures:

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Dave

Thanks Dave! You're awesome!

Peggy, why would I have trouble? Is there something I don't know? What is extra special about seed starting mixture vs say the potting soil that I bought? (see the 3rd photo)

You wont have trouble. I alway start my seeds with potting mix and they turn out great. You can really use any soil you want as long as it has nutrients in it which all soil naturally does. just pay close attention to water levels.

I generally start my seeds in MG Potting Soil, and it is a fave choice on the WS Forum too.

T

Hey Trudi...what is the WS Forum? Never heard of that.

Alamo - WS Forum is the wintersowing forum. It's in the root directory. The URL is below:

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/wtrsow/

From my experience clear cups do something funky with the roots on the sides. Better to use styrofoam or dark blue plastic.

What is extra special about seed starting mixture vs say the potting soil that I bought?

Germination mixes or seed starting mixes aren't as coarse in texture (very fine grained) so tiny roots can penetrate more easily, don't compact as much so more oxygen is available to the young roots, drain better so less seed rot and better germination, are sterile mixes so less chance of damp-off, and don't contain the fertilizers that seedlings don't need, can't use, and which can burn tiny seedlings.

You got potting mix (no dirt), not potting soil (dirt) so using it all depends on what your germination plan is - a few plants or tons of plants. Is germination rate important to you? Do you transplant or leave in the same container, etc.?

With WS it works ok since germination rate isn't the goal and the plants usually remain in the same container till garden time so some of those nutrients are used by them. But if you use germination trays or plug trays, start lots of plants, and transplant to cell packs or growing containers/cups etc. as many of us do then you usually germinate in one mix and then, after the cotyledons fall off or two sets of true leaves develop, they get transplanted into a growing mix.

Clear containers may cause root problems since unlike top growth, roots are negatively phototropic - they shy away from light and heat and cluster in the center of the container. You can eliminate the problem by wrapping or spray painting the outside of the cups if you wish.

Just some thoughts to consider. Good luck with your plants.

Dave

I never had a problem with peat pellets and never removed the netting. I do pot up into 4" CowPots or DotPots which are totally biodegradable with Fox Farms "Light Warrior".
This way when I plant out my seedlings to their final resting place, container or raised bed there is no transplant shock. Plus I use mycorrhiza and Actinovate when planting the seedlings out and just mix both in water and submerge my seedling pots for 10 seconds, drain and plant. And I have checked the root structure after the end of the season and the pots have biodegraded 95%-100% and no pellet netting to be found.
As far as the light/root concern in clear plastic cups I have found the opposite to be true. As an experiment I grew two Ind. varieties last year in 5 gal yellow translucent plastic trash containers and upon removing the plant from the container at the end of the season the roots had grown to the outside of the aggregate and down to the bottom of the container. Plant growth and fruit production was unaffected. And the length of time your going to have the seedlings in the cups it shouldn't be a player. Ami

With apologies to Ami, the fact that roots are negatively phototropic has been well researched and documented for many, many decades. ;)

Color spectrum exposure - as in using yellow vs. clear - can affect the degree of negative phototropism as it is the blue and white part of the spectrum transmitted by the clear containers that causes it. The form and size of the containment (due to the effects of gravity) can also affect the degree of negative phototropism.

You can read much more about it if interested in the research linked below or by Googling 'root troprism'.

Dave

bcpl: "rather crude?" How would you do it in a more elegant and refined manner, without sending the cost through the roof?

I am using peat pellets (inside clear plastic pastry or lettuce boxes from the supermarket) because by the time the plant outgrows the pellets it's warm enough to plant it in the permanent spot.

But, for a huge batch of okra to give away I used the OP's setup and it worked great. Okra grows fast with a deep taproot and I needed the soil depth.

I personally love the peat pellet greenhouses/method. I always get at least a 90% germination rate when I use them. =)

In my limited experience a pete pot might be great. A pete pellet worked like a charm too as far as germination goes.

That being said potting them up in cups becomes a lot of work when you are doing 100 plants and you have to be very careful handling each one.

As far as removing the netting I had several plants that I thought were stunted. Turns out they were all root bound in the netting. It is supposed to break away but some of them are much tougher than I thought.

A combination of the two factors means I personally choose to mine differently this year.

Last year I used peat pots and got great germination, but as you have noted, it is very labor intensive to repot them on a large scale. My husband wants to start them directly in the 4" pots with potting soil like you are doing. I keep telling him that you are supposed to start them in sterile non-soil mix because of a bunch of potential problems. He reminds me of the tons of volunteers that come up just fine in our garden soil (even in the middle of winter), and I really don't have a good counter-argument. I'm really wondering if it is necessary to use peat pots or seed starting mix after all.

In my experience I have never had any problem with germination. I am down south in SE Texas so its warm and overall a pretty good place to grow (with the exception of the intense summer heat).

I could only imagine somewhere in SoCal.

I think the main issue is to put at least two seeds in each place. There are too many variables to know if your seeds are good or not so just try it and see.

The amount of work is around 20% of what it was when I was potting and repotting and then transplanting and so on. For me, thats worth it...and plus I never had a major problem with germination.

About the only problem I have had was having two seed sets from the same envelope right next to each other in the same pete pellet set and one sprouts and the other did not.

Its all a personal call I guess.

I do agree with you, alamo. In fact, 110%...The transplant shock stalled my seedlings at least 10 days last year, if not more. I got better at it this year & the plants only suffered about a day or two of shock. I think, that with practice, the potting up from peat pellet to cup then to final home can be great if you do it carefully/right. =) Still though, direct sowing in cups would be better if I could figure out the right soil medium for seed starting in them. I'm attempting Jiffy Seed Starting mix this year with some direct cup sowing. We'll see how it goes. Anyways, I think you got a nice setup going there. I always prefer to keep them in indirect sunlight then eventually direct sunlight when I move them to the cups though. It seems to be more beneficial in the final stage of transplanting, plus they like it. Let us know how yours do.

- Steve

lazygardens that would depend on what you budget is.
my personal set up can handle 8 flats and cost less $100.

I never use any special seed starting mix or peat pots for any of my plants. I pop 'em in Miracle Gro potting soil, water, cover, and that's the end of that. This year, I'm starting my tomatoes in styrofoam cups (and I'm wintersowing some, first year trying, also in styrofoam cups), to avoid that first repot...hopefully they can go from these straight out to the buckets they'll stay in for the summer.

When I first started tomatoes, I used jiffy pots, 4 per pot, and just left them in them until I set them outside. So they were scrawny and I had to pull them apart, but they still grew and produced.

Then I started transplanting them after they got true leaves into individual pots and decided they did better. Then I started them in pots of peat moss, perlite, and a cheap potting soil, microwaved to kill fungi, and transplanted into individual pots, which I felt was giving me better results than the peat pots in plant growth but maybe not germination.

But last year I found a better way to germinate seeds. I get small ziplocks for beads at Michael's, 2x3", cut a piece of paper towel to fit, add water, add seeds, and get fantastic germination. Last year I started some seeds from 2001-2 trades, maybe I only had 2-4 seeds left, and also seeds that I had tried to start several years with no success in peat or mix, and got high percents of germination. This year I started 8 seeds each of 14 varieties saved from last year, and wait until the seeds are sprouting to plant in individual pots of the mix above. I got behind and some were over the hill, starting to twist around, but even with that only 5 of 112 are not up now = 95.5%. Tomatoes used to start coming up at 7 days and kept coming up for maybe 30 days or even longer, but I sowed on 1-17, and started transplanting sprouts 1-24, most are up out of the mix within 1-3 days, so there is much higher and more uniform germination. It also worked phenomenally on old cucumber seeds last year that had not germinated for me in mix for several years so I had given up on them.

Last year I tried to get fancy and used some Black Gold moisture control potting soil for 1/3 of the mix instead of cheapy Walmart stuff, and also added some coco fiber. I had trouble with seedlings in this mix growing poorly. But they overcame it after transplanting and I had lots of healthy plants, many over my head even though planted closely- 18" apart.

This year I'm using 3 way compost from a nursery for the 1/3 with peat moss and perlite. So far so good. The earliest transplants have true leaves now.

I have metal 3 tier shelves just wide enough to accomodate 2 10"x20" trays lengthwise. I bought lots of mini rose starts when a nursery was going out of business and use 2 1/4" square rose pots that fit 36 to a flat, so 72 plants per shelf. I tie 4' fluorescent fixtures on the bottom of the top and middle shelves and have around 11" for the plants to grow before they hit the lights and need to go outside. I use tunnels and plant out starting in April, sinking the transplants into the ground some so the stems can root, and they will fit under the tunnels longer which are 18" tall. They get them through snow and frosts. I harden them off on a east-facing concrete covered porch for several days before planting out. I also transplant some into 4" or even gallon pots and hold them there for other people.

Dave:

Wow, that article is a bit over my head. I understood it to say that there is a relationship between light spectrum exposure and root growth habit. So, if that is the correct take, what is your recommendation as to what type of container to pot up to, in an effort to achieve the best light spectrum exposure? Thanks.

Jerry

alamo - I'm sure your inexpensive setup will work just fine. The main thing is to keep plenty of light on the seedlings, and for at least 16 hours/day.

My setup costs around $2,000, but I wanted it to be fully automated, and with historical temperature trend charts too. Yeah....i'm crazy....

EG

Holy shnikeys! 2000 bucks! Mine cost 30 dollars! For two grand I would have a full on greenhouse built so I can grow year around.

Of course I am actually considering it lol!

Wow, that article is a bit over my head. I understood it to say that there is a relationship between light spectrum exposure and root growth habit. So, if that is the correct take, what is your recommendation as to what type of container to pot up to, in an effort to achieve the best light spectrum exposure? Thanks.

Anything dark in color. Roots like the dark. ;) Depends on type of things you use. Cell packs are usually black of course, many of the 3-4" nursery pots are dark green or black, if you use the drink cups then the red ones rather than the clear ones, dark colored containers the light can't permeate. Or if clear is all you can get then like I said above - wrap or spray paint them.

alamo - if your goal is to avoid the interim transplanting then I assume you have read the many discussions here about the benefits of staged transplanting and decided the fibrous root development it causes isn't worth the effort?

Dave

I have found that semi-translucent cups will do fine for the "after peat pellet" stage. =) I am using dark purple semi-translucent cups this year. Of course, i'm in a new place & they will get a bit more direct sunlight than they did last year, so we will see if these cups hold up again.

- Steve

Dave its not that I don't care its just that I never heard that term until really recently. Maybe 24 hours ago or so lol!

Its all a learning experience at this point although I could easily double cup them with dark cups now.

Hey alamo, here's my 2 cents. Thats sort of how I do it too, only my inital tote box is much shallower than yours so that my light fixture(a cheap 4'shop lt.) is only two inches from the plant/cup - raising as necesary. With your deeper tote box, the light couldn't get that close unless you raise the cups/pots themselves up higher. I switch over to a tote box like yours when the plants get bigger and and could go outside on nicer days or are ready to harden off. Btw, I use 8oz. styrofoam coffee cups - about $1.50 for 40. I'm cheap too. Also, I'd skip the potting soil and get a seed starting mix. I have a big big bag of the good stuff and it should last me easily 3 years and I do about 100 "cups" each year.

I have been reading all of the posts and find them all very interesting. I am a seasoned gardener but a newbie when it comes to starting tomato seeds. I am going to try and start some this year and see what happens. I live near Chicago so I am going to start my seeds around March 15th so I can plant after Mothers Day which is traditionally when we are done with frost.

I look forward to checking in for more tips that all of you have provided and I will keep you posted on progress.

Below is how I sow seeds and start and raise seedlings. Had over 1,000 last year.

Mike

From last year, peat pots sown 4 seeds/ pot, note # of pots with no or low germination.

Plants started in ziplocks (around 95% germination), resulting sprouted seeds planted in individual rose pots, note uniformity of plants and growth.

Alamo, im not trying to tell you anything buttttt, I had a old timer tell me something years ago. Start your tomato seeds in a half cup or less of what ever you want to use, [I use jiffy starting mix, which is just peat, I think) when the seedling gets 2 or 3 inches tall add a little more potting mix, tamp down with your fingers around the plant. I keep doing this until the cup is full and seedling is 8 or 10 inches above the cup. It gives you a very sturdy and thick base on the plant. When I plant the plant push n pull out of cup, break apart some of the roots, pinch the leafs and branchs off until the last few at top and bury upon planting to the last 2 or 3 inchs of the top of the plant. Works very well.

good method, suddensam.
seeds don't need that much medium. when you fill the rest of container later, seedlings will grow new roots in it.
I have always used the same planting method.
And later on, after staking/caging I also keep pinchin off lower leaves and suckers, so that nothing touches the ground and there is enough space for air movement to reduce chances of fungal diseases.

I'm giving it a try this year, too. Going to use the seed low, add soil method and skip the uppotting. I don't see any evidence that either method is better. Using Gardeners Supply seedstarting mix. Elevated trays in 10x20 flats with cow pots on capillary matting. Humidity domes, heating pad. 2-2tube T8 shop lights per shelf. From the smell of the boxes I'm afraid those cow pots are going to stink to high heaven in the warm wet trays. Wish me luck

Update:

I planted all my seeds directly into the cups.

Grand total I have 100 seedlings, but 20 of those are differing varieties of eggplant and sweet peppers...

Truly I started 80 tomato plants...Out of those 80 I had 3 cups that didn't germinate or are very very slow...and 1 cup that sprouted a single stem with no leaves...

So far everything else looks good... I have been unable to put them in the sun more because the weather has been so weird...That being said I have them in front of a very large window (one like 10-15 feet across)...

I think if I were able to keep them warmer they would have germinated faster but all things considered I have not used lights or anything... They were all just sitting a room temperature, which we keep around 70 degrees...

So far so good... (crossing fingers!)

As a side note peppers generally take a whole ton longer to germinate than tomatoes do.

That's cool if it works do it and try other things as you go

- I planted 24 varieties (have 7 more trays to seed ands a lot more varieties) in 50 cells Tuesday evening 5X10 in 1 1020 tray - 5 seeds per cell (dense method) All outside under patio cover on heat mats with dome cover(at night) - when it's cold 40-50 at night as it has been these last 2 weeks I set the daytime for 70 degrees and at night warmer trying to maintain 75-85 degrees
yesterday and today over 4 dozen have sprouted so they will be comimg soon - will then transfer tray to light system 1 of 4 shelves each with 4 fl grow lights (outside also) - when the seedlings are about 1 month old I will pot out in square 3 1/2 pots and after 2-3 weeks start setting in sun a little each day -

I use pro-mix pgx with biofungacide (pgx is plug grade or pro-mix bx with biofungacide) and add my own mychorriza mixture (plant success) to the soil starting seedling mix- I use actinovate and serenade when transplant
Dennis

alamo: Yea, sometimes the wait for peppers to germinate can be painful! You sit there thinking that you may have done or be doing something wrong. Then, after 2 weeks or so they start to pop through and after 3 weeks, they've all germinated & you have no worries anymore! =) Speaking of which, I need to pot mine up soon. They are outgrowing the germination station.

Greetings to all. I'm new to this web-sight and very excited about all the great information that's being shared. My reason for following this thread was to find some insight as to how to keep my tomato seedling from getting so spindly. Every year I'm disappointed when I go to the nursery and see their thick hearty plants while mine make a toothpick look robust. :( The post that "suddensam" put up sounds like a workable solution (for next year), but for this year how can I get them to "beef up"? In years past I had them in a good South window, in recycled plastic flats using a good potting soil and plain water. This year I'm using florescent tube lights, seedling soil mix and the same plastic flats (well cleaned of course). Any suggestions?

We start seeds in cups with Walmart brand potting soil. Starting seeds and gardening isn't complicated. Start the seeds, repot, harden, plant, till/weed/feed/spray, eat and enjoy..rinse/repeat

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/tomato/msg1116545016871.html

Half way down the page

I planted 6 plants last year in three holes to try it. I got good results and besides I have to dig half the holes and planting this way takes up half the space. Think about it, there's no downside to planting two in a hole.
When planting seeds we use 12oz cups. We buy clear cups at Walmart. I take a stack of 6 or 8, turn them upside down and poke five holes in them with an ice pick. We fill them with potting soil about 2/3rds full and plant two tomatoe seeds about 3/4" apart about 1/4" deep ..no more. As the plants grow keep filling the cup up with potting soil to cover the exposed stem. The hairs on the stems will grow roots. The more roots the better. I built mom two grow lights. She also has a wood/coal burner in the basement utility room where the plants are. That room is generally 80*. The perfect temp for growing new plants. Plants love the good light and warmth to grow. Another thing..never feed new plants plant food..just plain water and not to much..just keep the soil lightly moist. The clear cups will aid in looking at the moisture and you can also watch the root growth. We let the plants grow to 9 to 12" before we pot them. I go to restaurants and ask them for or to save their plastic mozzarella containers. These are great for potting. These pots are I believe 1.5 quart containers 6"X6". I have about 150 of them I keep on hand. Store them away from sunlight when not in use and they will last several years. I stack them about 5 deep upside down and poke about 6 holes in them with a ice pick. To prepare the pots, I take a 12oz cup and fill hit hard packed with real damp dirt. I enclose the top with duct tape. I take the large pots and fill the bottom with a good one inch of dirt. I place the 12oz enclosed cup and place it in the middle and fill and pack dirt around the cup..pull out the cup. When we are ready to repot we just take the plants out of the 12oz cups and drop them into the large pots..compress them in, fill to top and lightly water then we put them into the greenhouse I built. I buy shish kabob sticks at Walmart for supports..98C for 100..tie them with knitting yarn. Remember ther are two plants in each pot. When planting to the garden we try to bury at least three inches of the stem for good roots and we prune off any branches touching or near the ground. As the plants grow I prune off the bottom of the plant up about 12". I start pruning off bottom sucker, not all, as the plant grows and towards the top after they start reaching five feet. If you prune alot you get fewer but larger tomatoes..limited pruning gives you more but smaller tomatoes. I take a middle ground. We had plants this year that I punned off the tops at near seven feet. If I wouldn't have they would have easily been eight feet or more. Two years ago we had a cherry tomato plant that reached 9'4" and was just loaded with tomatoes all summer. Hope this helps.

I keep reading people post potting soil - do you really mean potting mix or seed starting mix ?

To me potting soil is just to coarse and you always risk fungal diseases ie damping off etc when planting in soil

Just wondering if the term SOIL is being used loosely?
Dennis