Santi

There are lots of organic fertilizers if you need to fertilize. You wouldn't have to use chemical fertilizers at all. Just look up "complete organic fertilizer" on Google.

That said, if your plants are healthy and are growing well, their nutrition is probably all right for the time being. They'll let you know if they're missing anything they need by the way they look, and I'd suggest that foliar feeding is the best quick-fix for nutritional problems as you add fertilizer to the growing mix.

thanks timmy for the pic, I use the same method but I plant only one plant per bag, and a use the bag standing, not lying down.

Here is a pic from a week ago

@ timmy1

I'm amazed at how you grow your tomatoes using bags on the flat. They seem to do great but this goes against all my learning and reasoning....pots or bags have to be deep for the roots, pots or bags have to be 18 gal or more, tomato plants need 3 feet between them...etc...
Your plants look great. Do you leave them in the same bags till harvest? Can you give us your theory on growing tomatoes this way? What kind of fertilizer do you use and how much water?

Thanx,

squibt

you can make your own liquid fertilizer by making a tea from your organic soil amendments, eg., worm castings, bat guano, and some kelp meal.

in a 5-gallon bucket:
1/2 cup worm castings
1 tbsp bat guano
1/2 tsp epsom salts
small pinch of kelp meal, or 1/2 tsp liquid kelp extract
~5 gallons of water
mix well periodically, let steep for 24 hours

i dilute it further (1/3 cup to gallon of water) for young plants because even organics can burn, and container plants dont have much growing substrate to buffer the nutrients

"@ timmy1
I'm amazed at how you grow your tomatoes using bags on the flat. They seem to do great but this goes against all my learning and reasoning....pots or bags have to be deep for the roots, pots or bags have to be 18 gal or more, tomato plants need 3 feet between them...etc...
Your plants look great. Do you leave them in the same bags till harvest? Can you give us your theory on growing tomatoes this way? What kind of fertilizer do you use and how much water?

Thanx,

squibt "

Each tomato plant needs 5-6 ft sq.

You can grow them 1 plant per bag close together or 2 per bag with more room in between. As long as you have 5-6 sq ft. per plant in full sun.

If the bag is flat or upright does not matter as long as the soil volume is adequate to match watering frequency.

They stay in the bag throughout harvest.

I use a mixture of 4-18-38 tomato formula, calcium nitrate and Epsom salts.

Im jealous! your tomatoes look beautiful!

timmy1,

Thanx for the info. Great looking plants. I will have to look into this process.

squibt

I am told that if the container tomato plant becomes lighter and lighter green, then starts losing leaves from the bottom up, the plant is starved for nitrogen and is moving nitrogen from the bottom leaves to the top of the plant.

This happened to me last year in 15 gal pots, so I suppose it is true that the fertilizer easily washes through the soil.

One source for replacement nitrogen would probably be liquid fish fertilizer. Nitrogen content varies, but is usually the dominant ingredient.

Most of the time, itÂs because you lack calcium. Fertilizers in general like MG cannot contain enough calcium because it would react with the existing phosphorus and harden like cement in the box. This is why tomato fertilizers must be mixed in a 2 step process. More or less the same reason "Quick Crete" doesnÂt come with the water. Hint-Hint MG if you started selling a 2 part box, pack, kit "professional tomato formula" it may be a big hit with professional home gardeners.

Oh my gosh,Santi,and timmy1,those tomato plants are gorgeous.I'd never heard of this before and I am going to do it too.I usually plant in largest pot I can find,but this makes more sense..A question though,are there any drainage holes in bottom?Thanks

Hey thnx for all your answers, I couldn't get all the ingredients, that most of you suggested, so I tried with what I could get and the results are WOW, I did a mix of manure tea, with bone meal, wood ash and iron sulphate(to level out the ph a bit cause bone meal and wood ash are very alkaline. I added that mix and then left for 10 days, and when I came backe the plants were AMAZING. Here are some pics taken yesterday. I even had to move them around cause they were starting to get very tangled.

They are all full of flowers and tomatoes.

Auntnawnee, I did not poke any drainage holes, but only because, the bags I use are made of a kind of polyethylene mesh that allows water to go through. If yoy are using any other kind of material like solid plastic bags then definitely you should add some drainage holes.

Santi

My bags have holes.

These tomatoes look fabulous, can you tell me what type of bags you use and where you got them, I'd love to try growing a few tomatoes in a bag. Any information you can give me is greatly appreciated. I am so impressed!

Linda

Linda,
The bags I use are fertilizer bags used on a friends farm to fertilize crops, the bigger bags are seed bags also from him, which are of the same kind of material. I think they are sold empty on a farm supply store. If not you could ask if you get the chance on any farm, I'm sure they have plenty.

In the bags I didn't use any soil, but a mix of aged cow manure also supplied by my friend, leaf mold, and wood ash. I used a mix of my invention of fertilizer made with the feedback I got from this post and the materials that I could get. I posted the ingredients previously.
I also added a layer of shredded newspaper, on the top to retain moisture.

Hope this helps

Santi

Hey new question, now that the plants are so big the bags get dry very quickly I've mulched to retain moisture but, I had no luck. Suggestions?? Transplanting is not an option cause the plants are huge.

Great results, Santi and Timmy! It's more than just the planting "spot," you both seem to know what you're doing.

Santi, to help control moisture loss, why not try that stretchy plastic packing wrap? It comes in rolls and can just be wrapped around the sides of your bags right where they sit. Maybe just heavy duty food wrap, as the packing-type rolls are expensive. Just make sure it's clingy enough or you may have to attach it somehow so it doesn't unravel.

I planted in bags last year for a different reason. In 2006, we received a large truckload of "cowdirt" from around a small barn and pen. Though it was well-aged, it ended up having some sort of herbicide mixed in, probably applied to weeds, which made it into our load of soil.

We didn't discover that fact till I added some to a trench dug the length of my greenhouse beds. As a result, most all my tomatoes had severe leaf curl and little to no fruit. Pretty much disgusted, I left it to deal with "next season."

2007 rolled around and we were suddenly breaking ground on a large addition to our home and I was the main carpenter. And still am, lol! I had no time to make my gh soil right or remove and replace it. So I simply laid bags flat on top of the old soil, cut a few slits in the bottoms and planted.

The bags were the cheapest potting soil and I didn't ammend. During the season, I used MG a few times. Looking at last year's pics, I see the leaf yellowing and sparser growth that shows I should have done a bit more, but overall, results were pretty good. We had an early harvest, most all my toms grew to give fruit and we had more than we could eat all season.

A few plants did end up with leaf curl, apparently some roots did get down into the old, contaminated soil beneath, but effects were much milder and didn't shut down production as it did in 2006.

At season's end, when pulling the bags, I was amazed how few roots had actually made it out of the bags. Roots permeated the bags, however. I was watering frequently, particularly with the smaller 20-pound bag plantings. The 40-pound size bags were much better off. I also had soil clumping and mineral buildup from our well water, so you could tell there were issues with my ultra-cheap and dirty method. But it did work!

I still haven't dealt with the underlying problem, so may just "bag-it and tag it" again this season!

-Ed

pics: Queen of the Purples and Sungold, June 22, 2007.

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Santi,

Forget about trying to amend the soil at this point for better water retention.

Best bet is to set yourself up on a water timer. A frequency of 4 or 5 times a day.

Once every 10 days, flood them so the water runs out your drain holes. This will flush out salt build up (EC) which will become toxic if left in there.

Make sure you have plenty of calcium at this point.

Hey thanks again for the advice, I'll try to wrap the bags with the food wrap but I doubt I will cause I fear it may be expensive.
Vegomatic I'm sorry to hear about the herbicide incident, I know how frustrating it can not to be able to grow and see your plants thrive (something similar happened to me when I moved. The garden had a really alkaline soil, due to a lot of rubble and cement lying on the soil for years and years. Nothing I tried grew. After much amending I am now doing fairly well, although I still get some roses with chloriosis). Your tomatoes growing on bags look great.

Timmy as for the calcium I add every other week a handful of wood ash to each bag along with a pinch of iron sulfate.

Thanks again

Santi

Wood ash is mainly potassium (K). It contains some calcium but not enough. Iron Sulfate is just that Iron and Sulfur(FeSO4) no Calcium.

Timmy, I know that wood ash has a lot of potassium, but i have added previously generous amount of bone meal to each bag. I know iron sulfate doesn't have any calcium, I just add it to balance a bit the ph, because both bone meal and wood ash, are very alkaline.

Santi

There's very little I can add to Timmy's explanations of how to grow in bags. My experience is limited in that regard. But here is something that worked fine for me.

I took 40-kilo coffee bean bags and filled them with composted manure taken with the bedding and all from horse stalls. Allowing for some head space to fold the bags shut, I'd say that was somewhere in the neighborhood of 60 - 70 pounds of rotted manure.

Then I folded the tops and laid the burlap coffee bean bags flat on the ground ... right on top of the sod ... in one long line, and slit the tops just enough to plant one transplant per bag. Twelve bags in all.

I used a weedeater to trip around the bags all summer and about once every three or so weeks, I dosed each bag with a gallon of water into which I put 1 Tbs. Miracle Grow tomato or rose formula and 1 Tbs. Epsom salts. The rest of the time I just hosed down the bags twice a week enough to ensure the equivelent of one - 1.5 inches of rainfall per week (it was a dry year).

I'm sure I could've found an organic alternative to the MG, and I'm sure if I had followed Timmy's method, I would've had more tomatoes. But I was growing these particular 12 plants for seed and was surprised at the surplus of eating tomatoes I actually got ... really nearly as good a yield as the plants grown in my raised bed.

BTW, I call my bag method "Sac-O-Scheist" but haven't copyrighted that name yet, so ...

Bill

Timmy1 - What do you use for a calcium supply? Calcium chloride, crushed egg shell, oyster shell, gypsum? And how much is enough, say, per plant? Thanks.

jbann,

Tomatoes are heavy calcium feeders.

When growing in bags, the source water pH level will eventually determine the media pH level.

To start, if you're media pH is Acid, say from 4.5-5.8, Dolomitic limestone will do 2 things.

1. Raise pH into the desirable range of 6.2-6.5

2. Supply calcium.

The exact amount of limestone to add will vary depending on pH levels, EC, CEC etc.

If your media pH is ok, then lime is not a good option.

Your source water may contain some calcium. Especially in a drilled well, where bedrock and limestone are drilled through.

You can use calcium chloride, but I don't recommend it because if you have even a small amount of chloride in your water naturally, then add in the chloride from the fertilizer and you could potentially end up in the red zone for chloride toxicity.

You're best bet is to reduce the Nitrogen (N) level in your base fertilizer, then add Calcium Nitrate to supplement the difference (15.5% in (N)) plus adding 19% calcium.

Remember growing in bags by definition is HYDROPONIC!

Timmy, why do you say it is hydroponic? I know nothing about hydroponics, but I thought it was growing without sustrate.

Hey this is probably a very dumb question, but for calcium, could you water with a milk solution? It's ph is neutral, and has calcium. Is this possible??

Santi

Never tried the milk. I would imagine it would stink after a few hot days.

It's hydroponic because I'm growing in a inert media.(soiless). As is most potting soils.

timmy1...a few questions: where did the 5 to 6 sqft rule come from? Or is it 5 to 6 cuft?

Also, how do tomatoes grown in bags taste? I once grew some brandywines in Gardener Supply's self-watering tomato planter and they were tasteless! Since then I am gunshy of planting tomatoes in containers...

5-6sq ft of area per plant.

The rule came from years of experimenting. If you exceed the rule in plant numbers (population), your yield per plant will drop accordingly.

In other words, letÂs say you have a strip 5 feet wide by 20 feet long or 100 sq ft to devote. Doing the math, you should have no more than 20 suckered plants in there. 2 rows of 10 or 1 row of 20 doesn't matter.

With the 20 plants and enough nitrogen for a 30lbs per plant goal, you should pick 600 lbs.

Drop down to only 10 plants, you will probably pick 40lbs per plant but only 10 plants is 400 lbs.

Increase to 30 plants, you will likely only pick 20lbs per plant or 600 lbs. Overcrowding means more plants, materials, labor and more favorable conditions for disease with the same or less yield. Especially when it comes to fruit size.

It comes down to physics, like trying to fit 10 pounds of Do-Do in a 5 pound bag.

These are the facts and I'm sure people will contradict on this free for all site. I produce tomatoes for a living, not for a hobby or to teach theory.

Oh yea, part 2 of you're question.

They taste great as long as you let them ripen fully on the vine. They get a bad rep due to growers/shippers who pick them green/breaker stage then ship.

5-6sq ft of area per plant...(I assume this is for caged/staked/restrained plants) Way too tight for ind tomato plants, unless on perimeter of patch or in a single row planting. For multiple rows planted next to each other in such an arrangement, even if that spacing produces optimal mass of harvest, the actual harvesting of them results in lots of damaged stems which reduces production. Not to mention damage done when tying them or otherwise restraining them during the growing season.

Basically planting indet toms 2.4' apart results in a dense tomato jungle that cannot be walked thru without destroying lots of stems. I allow at least 16 sq ft per tomato plant (staked) and it still becomes somewhat junglefied.

Reg

The key word is "suckered".

timmy1 - Hi again. Would you mind contacting me at jbannister1@verizon.net since we share the same state I'd love to stop by your farm just to see how a real pro does it. I'm down here in South Kingstown and this summer a drive up "North of the tower" doesn't scare me too much. They say, down here, that to go north of the tower(on tower hill) you should pack a lunch and bring a roadmap just in case you get lost. Whatever.

The key word is "suckered"...To sucker to such an extent that the plants resemble a patch of bamboo must really reduce the production rate. If growing primes on the crowns is the goal, then fine. I sucker only the low stems (and many of those go unpruned due to my laziness). Most above waist level stay.

Reg

Actually to sucker all the way up increases marketable yield, Aids in yield consistency (a more steady harvest rather than waves of not enough and too many). Also it reduces harvest time and increases air flow to help decrease disease pressure.

timmy1...thanks for the detailed answer...I guess my real question is what is the minimum volume of soil/growing medium a full-sized indeterminate tomato plant needs to thrive...

And what nutrients are most important to develop flavor?
I've heard to use greensand (but that is pretty alkaline I think)...I really enrich my raised bed with mushroom compost, iron sulfate, egg shells, epsom salts and the slow release fertilizer TomatoTone...I will try the calcium nitrate you talk about...

Also, I'd like to post a picture but can't figure out how to do it on this website...help!

Timmy,

You know your stuff! I used to grow tomatoes for a number of restaurants. I used to use Calcium Nitrate on my orchard but
somehow never put any in the tomato patch. That will change.
I sucker my larger indeterminates to a double leader, smaller plants to triple or even 4 leaders for some plums and cherries.
A typical tomato patch for me would be rows at 34 to 36" apart and plants spaced at 28 to 30" in the rows. Except on
semi-determinates or otherwise smaller plants (I do not grow determinates very often) my stakes are cut 7 ft long and typically extend up from the soil 5.5 ft. or a little more.

Suggest you go to http://www.internettomatoes.net/larry2.htm
and click around a bit. In 1999 I was doing things commercially while now I just piddle around with maybe 50 plants. By the way those big bicolor yellow tomatoes are
Burracker's Favorite, and the seed came from Chuck Wyatt.
Very disappointing, but my saved seed somehow was crossed and never amounted to a piddly after that year!

timmy1...here is a picture of my 3X5 raised bed for planting tomatoes...I put 6 plants in here so I am a little crowded using the 5 to 6 sqft rule but I keep them suckered and staked well...

The soil is at least 24" deep of mostly inert growing media and mushroom compost and other amendments...it's very fluffy soil and I have a ton of earthworms...

The heirlooms I've grown in here have been very tasty but never have been able to reproduce the results in containers which is why I was wondering about the volume of soil necessary to keep the plant happy, healthy, and productive of tasty fruit...

Here is a link that might be useful:

Nice plants Bluemater! 1/2 cu ft soil volume per plant min.

Larry, Thanks!