By pinching off what? The blooms as they appear or the branches/leaflets?

Bloom time is basically genetically predetermined in the variety - x # of days from germination to bloom. It wants to produce fruit. So pinching off the early blooms won't delay or keep it from blooming more but will definitely reduce your production.

Why would you want to keep the plant from blooming and setting fruit anyway? That is the whole point of growing it. ;)

Dave

I'm just thinking of ways of transplanting as late as possible since I'm starting indoors. So pinching off flowers wouldn't encourage later blooming at all? That's too bad. I guess I should just stick with the 2 month transplant time like everyone suggests :)

Dave, I hear you, but what about buying small plants that are already flowering before being planted out in the garden? They never grow big, such as the flowering-with-fruit-when-I-bought-it Lemon Boy, 12 inches tall. It was just a stump with very small fruit and grew to maybe 20". What would have happened if I had pinched off everything? Now I'm growing from seed, so this isn't as important. But what if...

Would it make a difference if they were indeterminate plants? They seems to be less 'genetically programmed' than determinate varieties and respond more to environmental conditions.

Also wondering if indeterminate varieties can be grown for longer periods before being transplanted outdoors?

Anyone?

This is from the FAQ section:

"After the transplants are hardened off, they can be planted to their final outdoor growing locations either in the garden or in large growing containers. Most agree that any early blossoms should be plucked off prior to transplanting. Others leave the early blossoms in place, especially if the transplant is strong, healthy, and not rootbound."

"After the transplants are hardened off, they can be planted to their final outdoor growing locations either in the garden or in large growing containers. Most agree that any early blossoms should be plucked off prior to transplanting. Others leave the early blossoms in place, especially if the transplant is strong, healthy, and not rootbound."

*****

Agreed, and we had lots and lots of discussioon about this when writing that FAQ.

I always take ALL the blossoms off every plant set out b'c newly transplanted seedlings need to put their initial energy into the vegetative cycle of new roots and foliage to makea better plant rather than allowing energy early on to go into the sexual cycle of blossom formation and fruit set.

That's my opinion and that of quite a few others.

However, I usually don't have blossoms on my seedlings when set out b/c I start them at a time in my zone such that they get hardened off with NO blossoms and are set out at about the 6-9 inch height.

Carolyn

I agree with everything Carolyn said because, like her, I would never buy or transplant a plant that already had blooms (much less fruit) on it. Older plants like that simply don't recover from the stress of transplanting and consistently tend to be stunted and unproductive.

I also grow transplants for sale and if some hang around long enough to bloom I just take cuttings off them and start the cuttings over and pitch the rest of the plant because I know that most experienced gardeners simply won't buy a plant that is already blooming.

Best analogy I can think of is the 22 year old single guy who loses his job and is forced to transplant himself to a new city, new apartment, and new job. He is much better able to cope all the stress and problems that result than is a 40 year old guy with a wife and 3 kids who finds himself in the same situation.

Draw your own conclusions as to how this applies to tomato plants. :^)

canuckistani - as discussed in some of your other posts, IF season extension is your goal (more details in your posts would be of a BIG help but I think I have figured out that is what you are after ;), rather than all these experimental approaches, your best bet is early cold-tolerant varieties, a mix of determinate and indeterminate for the best production over-all, started 6-8 weeks prior to earliest possible transplant date, pre-warmed soil, and the use of protective cover such as cloches or poly tunnels.

It is far from ideal I know, but unfortunately given the climate where you live, there is only so much that can be accomplished when trying to grow what is a basically tropical fruit. ;)

Dave

Here is a link that might be useful: TGS - Early varieties

Canuck,

You've asked this question basically two ways in the past week or so. Once, (in an earlier thread about nitrogen, fish emulsion, or some such discussion) you asked me if there is a way to delay blossoming by a fertilizing regimen and then kick the plant into flowering mode later by a fertilizer application.

Yes there probably is, but it might be too technical to get it down to the letter. I say that because it would be, in my opinion, damaging or at least not optimum to withhold phosphorus early on since studies have found tagged phosphorus fed to seedlings showed up in the first and subsequent fruit. So withholding early phosphorus is just gonna limit subsequent fruit yield, I think.

Now you're asking about pinching early blossoms as a way to hold off transplanting tomato starts. Yes, you can do that, but why? Did you already start your plants inside? Well, if so, you started them WAAAAAY to early for your zone.

Here is what I would suggest. Start your DETERMINATE varieties no sooner than 8 weeks, and more like 6 weeks, before the last possible day of frost ... and maybe even count on not setting them out until the earth is actually warm enough to stimulate root growth and back up 6 - 8 weeks from that date.

Don't prune off any growth of DETERMINATES until you are ready to put them in the ground ... or just prune off the absolute minimum amount of lowest growth as you pot up (since you should bury the lower stem at each potting up) so that the lowest leaves are removed and not in contact with the growing medium. Never remove any side shoots except the very lowest of the lower side shoots ... and I mean only the first and second side shoot at the very most.

Don't remove any of the flower buds off DETERMINATES except those very lowest ones that might make fruit that will dangle down and touch the ground after planting out. Never remove any buds at the terminal end of the side shoots on determinates.

I say all this because all you're doing by pinching off side shoots and buds from determinates is reducing your crop yield by substantial percentages.

Now, as to the INDETERMINATES ... I would suggest you not start them earlier than 8 weeks before you intend to plant them out. There's no reason to do so. You're not gonna gain a day on "Days To Maturity" because here you're gonna trim off all the lower foliage and sink the main meristem way down into the planting hole at the time of planting ... or into a long planting trench if your soil is only warm at the top few inches when you plant out ... dig it? ... and leave only the top two or so leaf internodes exposed above the ground. This is to maximize root stimulation and a healthy root system to support the plant physically and nutritionally.

Yes, pinch off any and all INDETERMINATE flower buds at time of planting out and let the transplant concentrate on root growth and meristem growth as Carolyn recommended.

Now, I get the distinct impression that you either want to get the jump on your neighbor or that you have already started your seedlings. Either way, forget about starting tomato seeds any earlier than 8 weeks before you intend to plant out (in my opinion ... and some people have all kinds of elaborate means of starting earlier, Walls of Water, red mulch, blah, blah, blah) BUT you will only end up with leggy plants with hardened meristems and a propensity to go dormant from stunted root wads in cramped starter pots. If others give you other opinions ... great. Experience will be the best teacher.

As to kicking the plants into a phosphorus mode to stimulate more blossoming after they've been out in the garden for awhile and gotten off to a good surge of foliage growth, simply strip off some of the excess foliage and the plant will automatically shift from N-mode to P-mode and throw out some additional blossoms. When I say "excess foliage," I mean older leaves and NOT growing tips or side shoots, okay? You should already have applied fertilizer FORMULATED for TOMATOES into the planting hole and maybe even side dressed or boosted with a liquid fertilizer by the time you strip foliage to initiate P-mode ... if that's what you decide to do.

But I don't really get the feeling that is what your earlier question was all about.

Bill

Bill,
I just printed that out and nailed it to the wall above my computer.

thank you ;-)

Corrie, surely you can find better and more artsy decoration!!!

ok, I'll put it in a artsy frame! LOL

I have only been growing for 4 years, but in my experience the earlier I planted seedlings, the larger plants were when they went in the ground; the larger they were when they went in the ground, the earlier they produced and the more fruit they produced. Sure it was a pain to have to have 3 to 4 foot tall plants in front of all of the south facing windows, sure they were more leggy than the ones that germinated later, but in the end the ones that I started earlier/that germinated earlier performed better than those started later. Earliest I started seeds was 12 weeks before last frost. Season is short enough here already, thought it was worth a try to see if I could give them a leg up, and it largely worked (large seedlings do have special needs).

How many plants are you planting? Why not seed 33% twelve weeks before last frost, 33% ten weeks before last frost, and 33% eight weeks before last frost, mark each of the plants and take note of (a) how much of a pain in the butt it was to manage/provide enough sun for/harden off the taller plants, and (b) how they perform overall (how early they produce, how many fruits they produce by end of season, whether they last through the season without disease, and then when you pull them up how root development compared across plants. Actually I think I might try this sort of experiment this year...will go hand-in-hand with my attempt to reduce # of varieties (so will have 3 or 4 of each variety, could split them up 12/10/8 weeks before last frost).

"Sure it was a pain to have to have 3 to 4 foot tall plants in front of all of the south facing windows, sure they were more leggy than the ones that germinated later, but in the end the ones that I started earlier/that germinated earlier performed better than those started later."

Anthony, all of my determinates are fully mature and loaded with fruit by the time they are 3 - 4 feet tall. And all of my indeterminates have woody main stems and most are well advanced and setting fruit by that height. I cannot imagine holding transplants inside until they are 3 - 4 feet tall unless I were growing varieties like Jack Beanstalk or Climbing Quadrupal Crop. But to each his own, I suppose.

As I indicated it is a HUGE pain and I would rather start them later...but is only giving them an extra 3 or 4 weeks headstart (I don't plant any determinates...unless you want to include CP/CG/IS in that category).

Basically, for those varieties that did not initially germinate as many plants as I wanted (seeded 11-12 weeks before set out), and which I had to re-seed (with 7 to 8 weeks left to set out), and which were 1-2 feet tall when set out, performance was significantly impacted compared to the same plants from the same packet of seeds that did germinate when initially seeded. Flowering/fruit set/fruit maturity/total production lagged behind in the later plants. In terms of better plant development/health (and less hassle) I would definitely rather have them in the ground outside at 8 weeks after seeding, exposed to the elements, in their final resting place, because I find that the plant develops much better from the ground up when they are planted at this stage...but that just does not leave me with as many ripe fruits as I would like, or give me production as early as I would like, which are my ultimate goals. The plant that was 6-7 feet tall and had produced 15-20 ripe beefsteaks by September was preferable to me over its late-started sibling that was 4 feet tall and produced 6 or 7 ripe beefsteaks with several green ones still on the vine in September.

Still, I think 12 weeks is a little much, and will try to figure out the best time to start to give me the best balance between work involved/production success for my growing season.

Anthony, in principle I agree with you that earlier started (esp. indt)plants will outyield their later planted counterparts. I prove it to myself many years by harvesting from the same plants from late May thru late Nov. That is why I started a tray of ~150 seeds yesterday. In order to harvest early you need to plant early. But you need a means to keep plants alive and growing when weather would otherwise be prohibitive, thus my high tunnels.

By Mid-March there is plenty of daylight sun to grow tomatoes in a heated, plastic covered structure. If you put the plants in the ground of a high tunnel at that time you don't need to worry near as much about hardening off or blossom removal except those which would lead to fruits resting on the ground. I'll grant that you'll run into more problems and lower sleep nights than you would like but the end result has always been worth the effort for myself and hundreds of other commercial growers.

I object to some people telling us that it can't be done when it is being done commercially all over this country, in Canada and extensively in England among other countries.

Just go with your gut and push the season limits. Do it by a few weeks this yaar, a few more as you gain confidence in a workable system. Tomatoes picked in May in our northern climate always seem to be the best tasting. And if you can keep diseases at bay you can harvest fruits from your plants for 6+ months instead of just one or two.

Sorry Anthony but to quote you from your other recent post - actually nothing worked last year.

Same reason why it won't work for the OP. You both are trying to force the plants to adapt to your environment rather than modifying, as much as possible, a small area of that environment to fit the plants. Then use the varieties that will work best in that modified environment.

I wish you both luck.

Dave

"I object to some people telling us that it can't be done when it is being done commercially all over this country, in Canada and extensively in England among other countries."

Moser, I'd be with you 100% if in fact anyone were telling you "it can't be done" in high tunnels, hoophouses, greenhouses, etc. But that is not the case in this instance ... if you would read the entire thread. And yes, I have seen it done in hoop houses, both unheated and heated, but that's not even what we were discussing now was it.

Dave, just because I said nothing worked last year does not mean that there were not patently obvious and consistent differences in early started vs. later started plants that I have grown last year or over the last 3 years. My consistent experience is that earlier started plants that are more advanced produce fruit earlier and produce more fruit throughout our shortish season. Are you suggesting that this is not the case, if so why don't I simply take things to their logical conclusion and sow seeds outside after the last frost date?

bmoser - No one said it can't be done in hoop houses, greenhouses, tunnels, or even cloches. We said just the opposite. It clearly can be done and thus the recommendation - "modify the environment rather than trying to modify the plant." Duh!! But then that wasn't what the OP asked was it?

That as opposed to all these far-out, experimental attempts to play with fertilizers, pick off blooms, or transplanting 4 month old, 3 foot tall plants.

My consistent experience is that earlier started plants that are more advanced produce fruit earlier and produce more fruit throughout our shortish season. Are you suggesting that this is not the case, if so why don't I simply take things to their logical conclusion and sow seeds outside after the last frost date?

Well first, that is not the "logical conclusion" although you could do that if you wanted to build a tunnel over them come fall ;)

No Anthony you are missing the vital point - transplanting and the timing of that transplanting. Earlier-started plants do fine IF they are started in a protected environment and are not subjected to transplanting at the advanced age of 4 months or more when they are already lanky 3 foot tall plants. Start them early if you wish and then when they are of normal transplant size 6-8" transplant them to their final growing location and do whatever you have to to control the environment. That is what I am saying. Sure a greenhouse would be the ideal but there are other less expensive ways to accomplish the same thing.

But it is NOT the same thing as growing a plant inside the house in a pot in a window until it is 4 months old and only THEN transplanting it to the garden and expecting it to perform as well. You have to understand what the act of being transplanted does to any plant much less what it does to a 4 month old one with blooms and or fruit on it. Thus my analogy above of the 22 years old kid vs. the 40 year old man.

Face it - that far north tomatoes aren't an ideal crop. They simply aren't going to thrive unless they have a protected environment to extend their growing season. Extend it up front or in the fall - either way works - but it is the seasonal climate you have to modify, not the plant.

Dave

Dave I understand your analogy and your position that plants of the size I mentioned are beyond the stage at which they should be transplanted into their final growing place, and from my experience I don't doubt that plants would perform better in a longer season if they had been initially transplanted as smaller plants; my big transplants are pretty pooped out by the end of the season (if season was longer, I don't think they would last much longer), while their younger siblings tend to look better and fuller and like they would have a longer healthier lifespan than the bigger transplants had (but though healthier and fuller, the have also produced fewer and later fruits, as mentioned). Is there somewhere I could find more information what effects growth/what is the ideal stage at which to set out? I don't know if it makes a difference up here, if proper transplanting and setting out would still result in later, fewer fruits.

Regarding transplanting in general, when I changed up a few things last year I seemed to have poorer root development than prior years. Plants still grew pretty large and produced ok given the weather conditions (maybe excess precipitation acutally helped bring more nutrients to the smaller root systems this summer). I was told by some people here last year that root growth could be improved by allowing plants to become somewhat (or more than somewhat) rootbound in smaller pots before potting up...may explain better performance in other years when I procrastinated before potting up. Did some research and came across the below link among other things. Not sure how old or accurate it is, but the article discusses root development, and seems to indicate the possibility that the more times a plant is transplanted, the less fruit it produces, due in part to damaging effects of translanting on the roots. Besides direct sowing, or planting seeds in 6-inch pots (instead of starters then cells then larger pots) I don't see a practical way to plant in a manner that would avoid all transplanting...and probably tough to plant one or a few seeds per 6-inch pot and have enough room/pots to set up for germination. Ignoring the transplant size issue, any comments on what this article says about transplanting and root development (and applicability to a non-commercial garden, if any)?

http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010137veg.roots/010137ch26.html

Thanks for all the responses peeps, I appreciate the detailed explanations. Yes I have been posting about late transplants in other forums, just hoping someone will have a secret method lol, but it does seem like the most experienced folk strongly advise against it. In light of that, I'll stick with the 2 months max for growing indoors (does that include germination time btw?) I haven't started my seeds yet but I have decided to try transplanting a few indeterminates (maybe 4-5 out of a 16-20 total) at around 3 months and then putting them out a month before last frost protected by kozy koats (4 month head start total). I'll put out the rest after 2 months + additional month with kozies (3 month head start total), or just transplant after 2 months. This should give me an idea of the process of later transplanting and give me a bit of personal data to compare the results. Maybe we can pool our data together at the end of the growing season anthony haha.

hoosiercherokee is correct you should never pinch off determinates as they are basically a one shot crop (except lower ones to prevent touching the ground) - also if you buy plants you should never buy with fruit - plants will be root bound and usually do not produce as well - if you buy a plant with flowers you should pinch off flowers on indeterminate plants - the process of growing a tomato plant is
1. root system
2. vegetation
3. flowers
4. fruit
plant should be healthy and green before flowering - if it is not you will start using nutrients needed to grow a healthy root system and plant to be redirected to creating flowers and fruit - if your plant looks healthy and is in a suitable sized container let them be - but you won't want to re-plant it in the ground later - I have tried pinching off flowers and leaving and do not see a difference in production if planted at the same depth - but removing flowers and all but top 2 leaves so plant grows better root system along the stem seems to be more important - along with correct watering - fertilizer and general soil prep - i use dr earth organic mycorise and garden and bloom or the pro-mix bx with organic mycorise or biofungicide , white pumice, pure earthworm castings, vermiculite worked in well plus lots of texas tomato cages or metal tree stakes to tie to - if you only have a short window for growing then choose varieties that can with stand cooler temps to frost - or set up hoops with horicultural covers, hot beds or set out early with walls o water etc like suggested - you are right though plants left too long before planting never produce well - so your alternative is set out early protected - a greenhouse - diff varieties or set out later and protest at the end of the season - this year I didn't get my fall crop in in time - and decised to just let them go - didn't even get some stakes etc - we have had 1/2 doz days of frost this year and decide just to see what happens and compare the varieties success - failures - so far have has some surprises with survivors when the frost - ice on the grass - should have killed off every plant - made them drop all flowers - some didn't and though not doing as good as in prime time quite a few plants have set several tomatoes - Ispolin, stupice( 1 set 15 fruit so far), Glasnost, hillbilly that went in to late in july-aug - siberia, siberian and others

I'll stick with the 2 months max for growing indoors (does that include germination time btw?) I haven't started my seeds yet but I have decided to try transplanting a few indeterminates (maybe 4-5 out of a 16-20 total) at around 3 months and then putting them out a month before last frost protected by kozy koats (4 month head start total). I'll put out the rest after 2 months + additional month with kozies (3 month head start total), or just transplant after 2 months. This should give me an idea of the process of later transplanting and give me a bit of personal data to compare the results.

*****

Yes, the 8 weeks includes germination time and also should include about a week for hardening off.

But nothing is set in stone. It depends on your seed starting methods and what and how you do it and with what, and how much light,temps etc., and doesn't include those seeds that take a long time to germinate or don't germinate, for whatever reason, so there are a lot of variables.

With more and more experience each year you'll find the timing and seed starting method that works the best for you.

If it were me, after maybe 60 years of being up close and personal with tomatoes and also growing in a zone 5 area, I wouldn't feel too comfortable about putting out 3 month old plants, cozy coats ( and 3 mo old plants aren't going to fit in cozy coats) or WOW's notwithstanding, but it's your game plan and far be it from me to do anything other than to wish you good luck. ( smile)

Carolyn, who starts getting nervous when her seedlings get near a foot tall, which seldom happens except when weather delays transplanting, b'c larger plants just don't adapt as well as shorter ones to transplanting and outside conditions. At least in her experience.

"With more and more experience each year you'll find the timing and seed starting method that works the best for you."

That is how I would sum it up and allow each to make adjustments as they become comfortable with new methods. Don't limit yourself by norms. If plants don't fit in a Wall-of-water you can more cheaply make your own with a clear garbage liner over a tomato cage or just a row cover. You may have two-3 nights in an entire early month to worry about cold or you may have a total loss, but I haven't seen the later with my tomatoes in over 30 years of gardening.

I apologize from drifting from the original post. My simple point was that we don't ignore the technologies that are available to us today. It is even more odd when we dwell on early 20th century research to make a point for altering the successful way of starting plants.

Wow what an emotional topic! The tried and true is a very safe method overall, but I will agree there are always ways to stretch the envelope. Special treatment, wall of waters etc all have there place depending on the growing situation. This is supposed to be fun, so try some different methods is my philosophy. I never would have thought you could grow indeterminate inside, but my son may prove me wrong in innovative tomato grow post. Who ever heard of a ScrOG? Is there an easy secret answer to early, big plant starts, probably not, but it is interesting to push the envelope. My 2 cents.

Larry

I am going to be moving from So Calif - Orange to Montana in 5+ yrs and am familiar with wallo water but not cozy coats - that Carolyn mentioned - where can you get Cozy coat info - availble for purcahse ? also I have been trying some of my early and cooler weather varieties over the winter to try and find those more suited to handing cold - can anyone give me variety suggestions - anyone from Montana whyoming colorado or other places that might have the same kind of Montana weather - warm in July then a storm comes through and get light snow or frost - where I can also get info on hoop rows and covers - any suggestions on green houses??