I think their July 4th tomato looks very intruiging. It produces from the biginning of July to some time around October. That's a really long season, and I am really tempted to give it a try.

4th of July is a nice little tomato. It is a little bigger then a golf ball and taste is ok. Nice little filler tomato that keeps on producing.

Dean

I'm ready to boycott Burpee.

I think that T & M have some really cool looking new things...

And since we're on the tomato forum - I think Tomato Growers has a few that are interesting - I'm VERY impressed with Sandhill Preservation Catalog...

Burpee is the devil. After massively messing up my order a few years ago, I will never buy from them again. It's not like there's not tons of other options. Also the Burpee-Seminis-Monsanto connection gives me willies. I'd prefer my tomatoes without salmon DNA spliced into it to keep them from freezing, thank you very much.

Mike

Also the Burpee-Seminis-Monsanto connection gives me willies. I'd prefer my tomatoes without salmon DNA spliced into it to keep them from freezing, thank you very much.

*****

Mike, you've told me something new. How is Burpee connected to Monsanto and Seminis? Yes, I know that Monsanto bought out Seminis but I didn't know that George Ball at Burpee was in any way connected. When did that happen?

Also, you have no worries about the GMO tomatoes making a reappearance any time soon. They were soundly rejected by the public and I doubt very highly that Monsanto is going to introduce any GMO tomatoes thru Seminis. Too much on the line in terms actually, of the Petoseed division of Seminis and its excellent reputation. Lost sales at Petoseed mean less cash for Monsanto.

Just my opinion.

Carolyn, who gave up on Burpee about 15 years ago and isn't that thrilled with T and M either and ahsn't bought anything from them in years. I mean stuff other than tomatoesb/c I don't buy tomato seeds unless I HAVE to. LOL

The DEVIL!!!???

I think Burpee has great service, and they have a nice selection of seeds too.

Everyone has a different experience but I don't think I would call them the devil.

I would grow Stupice long before 4th of July. Stupice has excellent taste and will produce from super early to end of the season. Stupice is a must try for everyone. That along with Cherokee Purple are my 2 favorites on flavor. Actually Stupice has more flavor but is smaller. CP is a great slicer for sandwiches.

Burpee I give up on also. They seem to be more into marketing then into plants. They seem to play games with names. Everything is a Burpee Exclusive and I suspect a lot of times they just give it a different name. Everything is becoming hybrids with fancy names. The new hybrid of the month club.

Take a serious look at Sandhill Preservation and compare. You will never go back to Burpee. Sandhill is a great company doing important work of preserving these valuable genetics. No hype. No fancy color pictures. No hybrid of the week club. Just super great down to earth best genetics that will grow great in your garden. And you can have fun saving seeds and supporting a great cause of Preservation.

Here is a link that might be useful: Sandhill Seeds

I have to say that with Burpee, anything that I have used/bought from them was good quality (not sure about salmon DNA)- I bought a bunch of heat mats from them, golly 10 years ago, and they're still going. But I find that Dangould's comment about marketing being the priority and not plants/seed is in my experience true.

This year they did a bait and switch on me... And I'm ready to completely give up on them.

I think Burpee is good for the average home gardener - they have several tomatoes, marigolds, peppers, etc. but once you get into loving seed - I mean really loving seeds and growing - it's just not enough?? For someone who maps out their garden - spends time thinking about what goes where and how to maximize space, etc. it really is annoying to me that they advertise something and then don't deliver. "Oh, we SHOULD HAVE taken that off our website..." If you won't ever have it, don't put it in your catalog OR website! The advertisement of something is more important than actually delivering the goods/seed.

I don't know anything about salmon DNA in my tomatoes, or Burpee being the devil but I do know I'm annoyed with Burpee.

Okay, maybe not the devil. I've done some research and it seems that they are not really connected to Monsanto (who IS the devil), besides the fact that they sell Seminis seeds which are very common.

But they do seem to be more interested in marketing than seeds. It annoys me that they are pretty much the only seeds I see displayed in the local stores. And a few years back they did string me along for 4 months, telling me that my order was almost ready, before just giving up and telling me that they couldn't supply me with the seeds and plants from their catalog that I had ordered. I mean, if it's in your catalog you should have it in supply, no? And if you can't deliver, TELL me that right away so I can go with someone else.

So, in conclusion, I don't like Burpee. I much prefer smaller seed companies with more interesting varieties and a greater interest in customer satisfaction.

Mike

You need to expand where you shop, because the nurseries I go to offer several seed compnies, not just Burpees, and I can also get seeds from Europe and Asia at these nurseries too. Your problem is with your local stores--you're annoyed that they have limited offerings for your tastes. Harrangue them for not giving you a larger selection--or simply go visit a better stocked retailer/nursery.

It's unrealistic to assume that all catalogue companies are going to be able to keep in stock something which may have become a "hot item"--that it took four months for your order to be filled sounds like they were trying to hunt down seeds to appease a difficult customer.

Okay, maybe not the devil. I've done some research and it seems that they are not really connected to Monsanto (who IS the devil), besides the fact that they sell Seminis seeds which are very common.

*******

Thanks for pointing out what I thought and that's that's there no conmnection between Monsanto and Burpee, as I thought was the case.

The division of Seminis that we in the US are most exposed to are the seeds and new varieteis bred by Petoseed. And since they offer both OP and hybrid varieties I don't think you're going to find many seed sites that don't have some Petoseed varieties. I'll start with Big Boy and Better Boy and could list many more .

I think it's Fedco that was or is phasing out Seminis seeds b'c of the Monsanto connection, but to me that's just a knee jerk reaction and the only losers are their customers.

I may not approve of this or that company for this or that reason but just b'c a particular company is owned by a large multinational, as many are, it doesn't necessarily mean I'd boycott that company.

Carolyn

Trudi, I think Mikes point was not that he was being unrealistic, but to simply tell him "It's a hot item, and we're having difficulty finding it" if that's the case so that he COULD go somewhere else to get the item or a simliar item. Or his any seeds for 4 months.

My problem was they kept listing the item I wanted 'in stock' when it wasn't. In fact, it's not been available for 2007/2008 - and they still put it in the catalog AND listed it on line as "in stock". For that reason I ordered it and several other items (that frankly I would have ordered elsewhere, I was trying to make it worth my while for the S&H). Only to have them say 'oh, it's out of stock'... it was always out of stock! Just say so! I was so annoyed wanted to return all the items I got!

I will have to weigh in with Trudi on this one about Burpees. ALL my experiences that I remember have been good with the possible exception of one small purchase of three flower plants. That ain't bad at all in my book, and they are still one of my favorite online and hard copy catalogs. They more than made up for that deficiency (which I did not feel was their fault) by refunding my money spent on their Porterhouse tomato seed without my asking when I mentioned poor germination while on the phone with one of their reps. She was very congenial and helpful. So, they do not have all the particular varieties that I could possibly become interested in and want to acquire. I do not think that any one company or organization can fulfill that role. (And incidentally, I was impressed enough with their Porterhouse Tomato that I ordered some more seed, saved some and plan to grow it again this coming year! ! )

Perhaps it is just my way of thinking but I am of the opinion that a company in the business of selling seed and plants would have to be very concerned with marketing strategies or risk failure. Historical or benevolent sites would probably be more likely to have a dot org behind their name than a dot comm.

At least I do have a very varied collection of mail order catalogs from seed companies (just since th first of the year) with even more online to search for any hard to get seed that I have trouble finding. Then there is always the possibility of doing some hoss tradin with other members.
Just my .02
Bill P.

I've worked in the printing end of catalogues and junk mail etc; many catalogue layouts are finalized months and months before the printing, if something is out of stock--and it's brought to the attention of the printer/mailer before the catalogue is printed--they can put a "failed crop" stamp over the space allotment on the layout--but if that info gets to the printer after the printing it isn't going to happen.

There's a HUGE amount of steps and people between knowledge that an item is unavailable because a crop failed and that information getting to the customer. At any point there can be a breakdown in the transfer of information. That's the reality; hopng and wanting for ideals doesn't effect reality.

Personally, if we're in control, we can effect reality, we can control a large part of the outcome. As an example, WinterSown is an online seed provider, the organization is set up to share seeds freely with individuals or worthy organizations. Recently, WinterSown has increased its limited tomato offerings and been able to show a list of varieties that are in stock. In these online offerings there is a request that people send a list of default choices because WinterSown cannot guarantee that any of the first six choices will be there. There is no possible way to anticipate a run on any particular variety.

Similarly, many catalogues will have a space in their order forms that ask to be able to substitute a similar variety if they are out-of-stock of what you want; this is not unreasonable. Because WinterSown has direct control over the offerings and there is a very short chain between offerings and edits, the system works well in making up for shortfalls.

The larger the 'information and performance chain', the greater the ability to not create 100% satisfaction with a client request.

In the concept of Ideal vs Real, Real is what happens. Not acknowledging that reality prevails is going to be frustrating to the persons who don't/won't acknowledge an obvious reality. The reality is that the supply chain is not 100%.

I have never known Burpee to put anything "CROP FAILURE". But I only look at the items I'm interested in... I'll have to look now.

I'm not unrealistic here (although I've known some unrealistic people to say their realistic, so who knows!):) I definitely understand that things go out of stock. And understand please that I'm not Anti-Burpee... Heck, I'm looking to buy their product... Its not a bad product.

But please do understand tHe item was out of stock last fall, and the DAY it came 'in stock' 2008 I ordered it. They never had the item... and I feel should not have been in their catalog let alone the website listed as 'in stock'... Since I complained, THey are now listing it 'out of stock' (NOT crop failure).

In this case, I feel that it was deceptive on their part to put it 'in stock' on line and in the catalog just in HOPES to get it?? They don't have it... don't put it in the catalog! This is a bait to pull you in to order - NOT banking on what they already offer... You know?

May be this is not a hot item and they didn't know that it was listed 'in stock' on line... but I feel what they did was purposely deceptive.

I see nothing in this year's Burpee catalog that tempts me. I think their recent (a few years ago) addition of BrandyBoy was an excellent selection and it's now on my Must Grow list every year since. Last year's Porterhouse really is a HUGE tomato like advertised so if one is growing for size only it's a MUST IMO! Taste isn't there though but man what a plant full of 2 pounders!

But this year nothing looks good to me from Burpee tomato-wise.

I've worked in the printing end of catalogues and junk mail etc; many catalogue layouts are finalized months and months before the printing, if something is out of stock--and it's brought to the attention of the printer/mailer before the catalogue is printed--they can put a "failed crop" stamp over the space allotment on the layout--but if that info gets to the printer after the printing it isn't going to happen.

****

I can only speak to TGS here and a bit about Sandhill as having info related to what you wrote Trudi.

Linda at TGS will not even list a variety in the catalog copy to be sent to print unless she has the seeds in hand. And it has happened that seed she's ordered didn't come in in time for her to either list it in the copy, or even before the catalog went to print. She flies to where it's being printed to monitor the print process as well as monitor the color resolution.

But she has the option of changing things at her website re varieties that might be late and not make it into the catalog.

Glenn and Linda and Sandhill clearly write Unavailable for 2008, or whatever, next to the over 400 varieties they list when the seeds aren't available. That way at least folks know they normally carry those varaieties and Glenn explained in the beginning of the Tomato section of the 2008 catalog why so many were not available this year.

And they too have the option of updating their website at any time.

Things have changed at Burpee over time. Since it left the hands of David Burpee many years ago there was a succesiion of owners, some multi-nationals, yet the offerings that I was used to were maintained.

George Ball stepped in and bought it, only after he was asked to dispose of his stock in Ball Seed Co, which is wholesale only and owned by his sister.

He had done some work with Burpee previously, I think it was in the Caribbean with impatiens if I recall correctly, and he wanted a chance to save it.

What happened was that he expanded into garden centers which were not profitable and all of a sudden he had to file for Chapter 9 bankruptcy. I guess they're out of that but as the years proceed the ratio of pictures to actual varieties offered has just skyrocketed and for some veggies only ONE variety is offered these days.

Yes, when I was a kid Burpee was a staple seed source, but I don't see it being that way any more.

it's also good to know that George is very pro hybrid at the expense of OP's and he's written about that at the Burpee website before.

Yes, I know him but haven't communicated with him in many years after the debacle of his special Heirloom catalog when that was offered and then after just a couple of years withdrawn. There were many many errors in that catalog as well as seed errors.

Carolyn

It's unrealistic to assume that all catalogue companies are going to be able to keep in stock something which may have become a "hot item"--that it took four months for your order to be filled sounds like they were trying to hunt down seeds to appease a difficult customer.

*******

I understand that items may become unavailable due to crop failures and unpredictable demand. However, I believe that there needs to be communication ASAP with the customer, since most of the seeds or plants need to be started on a particular date. If they were "trying to hunt down seeds to appease a difficult customer", don't you think they would have told me that? Also, I would think that the larger seed companies would have less problems, do to having larger inventories.

And I'm not sure if those were the reasons in my case, since this was not one or two items in my order that were delayed or unavailable, but around 15 items (about half my order). They couldn't even get me starter onions until June. I ended up buying them our of a barrel at the grocery store. There was no communication from them about the status of my order, until I contacted them in July to cancel the unfilled items in my order (around 10 items). They are also not honoring my request at that time that they remove me from their catalog mailing list.

Mike

Hello everyone, some very interesting points/questions about Burpee. As far as I am concerned, Brandy Boy is one of the best tomatoes I have ever grown. I think something like that doesn't come along too often. For those who saved Porterhouse seeds,we will have to do some comparison growing this season. I am very curious to see what F2 may bring. :)

I've had very good luck with Burpee. I order mainly other vegetables except for the Brandyboy and did plant the Porterhouse last year. Have had good service and great germination on the seeds. I have had a few out of stock seeds requests from several of the companies. I've found it happens more on the orders I place after Jan. 1st. So I will continue to buy from them what I need. Much better service than Gurney's and some of the others. JMO. Jay

I was just reading up on Monsanto. They ARE the devil! Wow.

Howdee

Here are my two cent about burpees new catalog. I am thinking the mama series of paste tomatoes are looking good to me. I personally don't really care for hybrids but I can't seem to find a good paste that produces well in my short garden season. I have grown the 4th of july for about 3 years now and they are the only hybrid I can't live with out. I am going to put in about 3 different hybrid pastes this year to try out.

Purple

I want to stick up for Burpee a little bit, too. I too LOVE 4th of July, extremely early, extremely productive, and makes fabulous sauce -- very tart and sort of fruity. I ordered some of their new varieties this year -- the Razzle Dazzle (or whatever it's called, something along these lines) and Italian Ice, as well as Big Mama paste and my beloved 4th of July's. The only disheartening thing is to pay $4.95 a packet from the catalog, and then seeing some of the same varieties at Home Depot for $1.45 a pack.

Oh, forgot, I absolutely HAVE to have Sun and Stars hybrid sweet corn, the best I've ever tasted. Even if it is VERY expensive, and NOT on the seed racks.

I did not save PH seeds but I'm growing a couple plants next year from my original Burpee seed purchase. Please share your PH F2 results. This new variety has all the big genes in all the right places...LOL Delicious is a runt compared to PH. I have never seen a variety that produced so many 2 pounders on one plant. I can get a couple or three 2 plus pounders from Big Zac per plant and BZ is still my personal record at 3.35 pounds but PH gives an average size weight higher than BZ. Man, just think if I'd actually prune the plant and throw fertilizer at it!

My family ordered from Burpee for a gazillion years - and for that I do have some feelings of loyalty... but hearing the history - things HAVE changed... It's not the same company... I ordered from them this year, but I'd be hard pressed to do it again.

Brandy Boy is a winner . Even in last years drought it produced when nothing else did . BUT what is with Porterhouse Less than 50% germination . Called them they sent more but the same problem . And Guess what this years seeds are the same. 100 varieties planted and even my seeds from 02 had much better germination

Difference in germination rates seems to be like the production of a variety from garden to garden. Last year I had 87% on PH. I will be planting from last years seed in two weeks. Will see how I do this year.Jay