Last year I used no protections at all. You can see the 2 hybrid tea roses in the upper part of the yard covered in snow...LOL
Platinum had cane problems, but, the younger one beside Platinum (Love's Magic) one that was planted on the rock...LOL... only had about 6-8 inches of winter dieback.

I will know more with Platinum next Spring. Going into winter weak is not good, so hopefully he makes it to Spring.

The newly planted Holly Trees in the pic were all brown and dead looking when Spring came. LOL... I didn't care!

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Forgot to mention. In the snow pic you can see Platinums canes laying down on the right side and back of bush.
This was not due to snow load, that's the way the canes grew in the Spring, out sideways, instead of upward...LOL

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This is a recent pic that shows new canes actually growing upwards, instead of sideways...LOL
Before there was 3 canes in the back and 1 or 2 canes on the right side that grew out sideways. Why? I do not know.
So, this past Spring I had to prune to leaf stems that were growing upwards...LOL
I wish I would of knew some of those canes were bad then, I would of cut them completely off and forced new canes to grow in the Spring, instead of doing it late July...LOL...Rookie mistake!

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This pic here of Platinum. I did not get any blooms to the left side or the front left side and right side. Mostly blind growth from the injured canes was growing.
The season before I got blooms everywhere! Even near the ground all around the bush.

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JIM I think you got a pertty good game plan mapped out.
Your Platinum is such a nice looking rose I sure hope nothing happens to it this winter, boy it is loaded the blooms. Just think what it will look like next year.LOL LOL
Harold

If anyone ever runs across a picture of an entire mature Precious Platinum rose bush, let me know. I'd like to see what others look like.
I have searched high and low on the net...LOL
I contacted Heirloom Roses and Roses Unlimited with no luck. Nobody has a full bush pick of a Platinum.
Is this a bad sign or what? LOL
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Here's Heirloom Roses description of Platinum.

The tall and stately 'Precious Platinum' is a strong, upright growing hybrid tea or shrub rose with outstanding foliage. Its striking red blooms are produced from nearly the ground to the top of the plant, something few roses accomplish. It would also make an outstanding hedge. z 5-10, continual bloom, 35 petals, bloom 5"

Height: 4 1/2' - 5 1/2' x 3'
Fragrance: Lightly Fragrant
Year: 1974
Country: Ireland
Item #: HT623
Price: $16.95 per rose bush
Heirloom Roses' collection of Outstanding Hybrid Tea Roses.

THIS IS FROM KARLS WEBSITE ON BLACKSPOT:
Q: Blackspots-2

My roses have a terrible case of black spot. I have taken Jerry Bakers advice and painted every leaf with a tomato leaf, onion and rubbing alcohol brew. This has seemed to help some. But, I still have black spots. I have already cut two bushes back due to all of the leaves falling off.

Last summer my roses were beautiful I sprayed them regularly and never had this problem. Now this summer with a new baby they have been a little neglected. Thank you

A:
You should have written to Jerry Baker as it seems his advice isn't working. I don't follow or even know what his advice is. The only way to control black spot is to prevent it, not wait for it to appear. If his advice were that good every American Rose Society member would be following it. We don't like black spot either. I recently suffered a massive stroke and cannot get out to my rose beds like I should. They are suffering because of it. Many of my roses are leafless sticks. I remove any blooms from them but do not cut them back as they will leaf back out. Preventative spraying is the only way to control black spot. That means spraying with a fungicide labeled for roses when the bushes leaf out in the spring and continuing as directed on the label all through the summer and into the fall until the first hard frost. To kill any BS now, spray 3 times, 3 days apart with Manzoceb or Manzate. This should clean up your foliage. Then spray with Banner Maxx mixed with Manzoceb every two weeks as a preventative. If you only have a few roses you may not want to spend all that money on Banner Maxx. You can get the same active ingredient in Fertilome's Liquid Systemic Fungicide. Banner Maxx requires 1/4 to 1/2 teaspoon per gallon while the Fertilome product requires 2 tablespoons per gallon. Banner Maxx is about $70 a pint and the Fertilome product is $21 a pint. A pint of BM would last many years if you have just a few roses. Funginex, Daconil, and Immunox available from many garden centers, Home Depot and Wal*Mart will work also.

Make sure you follow the directions carefully and read the label.

Good luck with your new baby! Right now that is the most important thing in your life. Roses can be replaced quite easily.

A source for Manzoceb, Manzate, and Banner Maxx is www.muncyrose.com or www.rosemania.com
Spraying will take less time than painting the leaves.

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The link to this article is:
http://www.rosenut.com/askrosenut/Q&A1.htm#Blackspots-2

Ok, going to let my other thread die and use this one.
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That greencure stuff you talk about, have you used it before? Would that stuff work in a pump sprayer?
I might try that stuff. Somehow I missed reading about it in your post. Hummmm
The only way to know if it truly works is to use it when the roses first leaf out in Spring and follow a regular spray program.
I think I will buy Greencure and try it. Hopefully it works in a pump sprayer?

JIM

I'm up late researching blackspot. Getting tired...LOL

It all boils down to this:

Whatever organic spray you use, you must start spraying as soon as the leaves come out in Spring and follow a strict spraying routine until fall.

If blackspot still breaks out while using the organic spray.

Then, you have 2 choices:

1. Use a stronger fungicide to clean the bush up.
2. Continue spraying organic solution and continue to pull off all the infected leaves and pray it doesn't spread to bad...LOL
Once you have Blackspot, Organic sprays will NOT stop it from spreading!

JIM

Went out this morning and Blackspot was spreading just alittle on Platinum and Courageous now shows signs of Blackspot.

Of course the dog-rose sweet afton is clean...LOL

JI

Wanted to share this pic I found on the web.

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Jim I love the pictures don't be too worried about the black spot I have some roses with it on them now and I've been B/S free up until now. I have sprayed every 10 days sence Feb. when I pruned back the roses in the spring. and I use manzate ,Honor Guard & Clearys 3336F. rotating the last two. If you grow the type roses that I have you have to spray. In this climate ( hot& humid) its either spray or spade.LOL LOL
Harold

Harold, this must be a bad time of the year...LOL
Ours only have a few blackspot leaves, just worried that it might spread and that's not good with cold weather coming.

I have been picking those darn rose slugs off left & right...LOL
I picked 65 off the other day & 42 more this morning. They are turning Platinums new & old leaves into skeletons. They are on the leaves & all over the canes. They are very hard to see as they are green in color. It will be a miracle if Platinum makes it through the winter with all this onslaught.
Insects & blackspot weaken roses, not to mention my radical late July pruning...LOL

Funny though that they are leaving Courageous & Sweet Afton pretty much alone. They must love attacking the weaker rose bushes. They have hit Platinum & Bonfire (potted rose) very hard!

JIM

You can see by this pic that cutter bees love Sweet Afton...LOL...But, they have not bothered the other roses much at all, so, they must prefer Afton. Good thing about leaf cutter damage is the leaves still function.

{{gwi:1272931}}

Harold & serenasyh, I swear i'm going to stop looking at our roses...LOL

Just went up to take more rose slugs off Platinum and noticed a brand new cane in the back of Platinum that was split 7 inches up from the base. Turning brown in that big split and I will have cut that one way back next Spring...Argggggggggg

New Cane in the back, one that is close to the rock in the background. I swear if Platinum lives and gives me more cane problems next season, it is getting shovel pruned!

{{gwi:319526}}

I missed out on all your fun correspondence because I was at my folks trying to figure out used car deals. Eluane's agility competiton is coming Sept. 11 and 13. My mom is lending me hers but I feel really bad because it is in Lawrence not Kansas City; a lot of mileage! I need a car to bring Eluane to her agility gym and competitions. She loves agility and border collies are "working dogs"-- they need a job to do to be mentally healthy and well-exercised.

Jim, I actually have to correspond with Karl because I am an organics dropout, I had to run to the organics forum and waiiiil/go-to-confession about my failures. Jim, it has ended up even worse! than my original post because now even my backyard roses have caught blackspot (the autumn sun casts long shadows from my house and the roses don't get enough sunlight now and the constant unending rains are killing me!). You see Jim, I reeeeally, reaaally dislike synthetic fungicides. Eluane actually threw up 2 days after I applied mancozeb; perhaps the wind? blew it from the roses out to my lawn? Every synthetic fungicide has human health dangers to it unlike Greencure, but Greencure is extremely ineffective if you have shade-growing roses and with continuous rains. I apply Greencure as soon as I see tiny buds, even before leaves came out wayyyy back in April! I have sprayed even my baby bands with them when they were very young. I spray Greencure like a maniac during the rains too! If there was any break with cloudiness and earlier rain, I'd be back out there spritzing my leaves and when it washed out later the following morning rain, I'd be back out there "Greencuring" in between rains and clouds. All to no avail! However to its credit, Greencure works great during the Spring and Summer on sun-planted roses.

What I need to find out from Karl is how long roses can survive with blackspot. My Dad has 3 regular roses and one Dr. Huey. All have blackspot except for his one front yard rose. He tells me that the roses still survive and come back every year. Granted his roses are very awkward because he never prunes or deadheads them!!!! he just lets them grow willy-nilly so they are 9' tall with ancient crazy-thick canes instead of multiple new canes but the flowers and canes are huge at least). My dad says that even though his roses have blackspot, they always grow plenty new ones to make up for the lost leaves--that the autumn they start to have much more blackspot, but they always survive the winter). He said it's a natural back-and-forth battle between the roses and blackspot but that the roses always win in the end.

P.S. Jim, there is a huge! strange bee that will fly literally across the block to visit my Lincolns (as large, fat and furry! as a bumblebee but very! dark-- I saw a drawing of it at Powell Gardens-- they drew out about 12 different kinds of bees that inhabit Kansas). Much to my regret, I didn't spend time to look more closely to identify that "bumblebee?" that visits. Looks like Mancozeb really does not hurt the bees just like the online research says. It's now the 2nd week I'm applying and I've already applied like 3 times-4 times and that bee is still around, LOL! At least that is a great thing!

But all-in-all I seriously want to return back to organics and let it be the sink or swim. It's just not worth the health risks. I think the only rose I'll ever feel compelled to use Mancozeb is my beloved sport-fragranced Gemini. If it ever dies I'll be absolutely heartbroken.

I am going to order DrammaticK in the meantime.

Serena just as the above thread says I spray all the time the only other thing that add is Consevre for thrips I have tons of bumble bees, honeybees,butterflys,lizards. You name it and you can probley find it on my roses. While I hate spraying anything I do love my roses so I spray.LOL LOL
Harold

serenasyh, I sent you e-mails from karls responses on fungicides and Karls e-mail address, hopefully you got them.
Harold uses a spray program such as karl discusses.

I'm not to worried about blackspot yet here. Only a few leaves have been infected. More worried over your Blackspot problems.

I'm having more cane problems with Platinum. A brand new cane split near the bottom and canker fungus is setting in on that cane already. ARRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!

I also noticed another cane in the front left side is growing yet again to close to another cane. The thorns on Platinum are alittle over 1/4 " long. Four thorns were almost sticking into the next cane. I cut the thorns in half ...LOL... I could not even slide a piece of paper in between the thorns and the cane, that's how close they were.
I was afraid to take them off the cane because it may injure yet another cane.

Platinum is being a real pain in the butt!

JIM

Karl just wrote back and told me to prune that bad cane out now or the canker fungus could spread to the crown.
ARRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!
LOL

Going to pass this bit of info on:

If you ever get a split cane or wound, if you can catch it early enough before tissue damage and disease sets in, seal over it with elmers carpenters glue.

JIM

AAAAAAAAARGH! poor you and me Jim! looks like fungus, whether it's canker or B***blughghy is driving us both! crazy! Jim, I wrote awhile back about being sure that you seal your prune cuts with Elmer's glue. But also!!! be sure to clean your shears with bleach after you cut. That fungus is so difficult to cure. Anything can help it spread. Wind, gloves, uncleaned shears, you name it! It's so hard to maintain "sanitation" when it comes to canker and B***blughhy. Every time I peel off those darn infected leaves, I still run the risk of shaking off more spores onto the rest of my plant by accident. Jim, when I first had severe canker on my poor Gemini, you do have to cut very severely as Karl warns-- you even have to cut past 1 inch of clean cane just to be sure that the canker is completely!!! removed and has no chance to sneak past the healthy tissue. In other words better safe than sorry!

Jim I know that everyone says not to fertilize into fall, but I believe those few that do! They say their roses never have any problems with late fertilization. I am not stopping any feeding of my roses until mid-September because they are fighting off bad infections and need all the nutrients they can get! This is a personal choice/risk, but no one else can convince me otherwise. Frederick Mistral right now is making an awesome recovery. Top and middle parts are filled with abundant leaves, but the lower horrible naked bottom parts are bursting with stem buds, where I could never imagine buds would be appearing, right where the thorns are at! can you believe it? That sea tea is doing wonders for it.

Jim thanks soooo much for your emails! they are wonderful! and for helping forward me Karl's opinions. I didn't have the chance to write back because James was here this evening. (It's now almost 1:00 a.m. LOL) so I now have the time to write back. James and I were watching Terminator Salvation, LOL! Sort of ironic don't you think? I sort of feel like we're the Skynet who are trying to eliminate the bl***sp**, with our machines and chemicals and mechanical applicators, but the bl***sp** rebels refuse to be exterminated, hahahahaha!

Harold, yes, definitely very understandable! For me I love my hybrid teas and unless there is a very special bee-attracting rose like Darlow's Enigma, Heidesommer and Lyda, I don't care to grow other roses besides these. And it's impossible to grow hybrid teas without resorting to these high-duty fungicides sooner or later.

Well, today turned to pure horror! I looked out our back door this morning and seen something funny happening to Courageous. I went up to take a closer look and those darn rose slugs have eaten 1/4 of its leave in a short period of time.
I picked off over 100 slugs.

I also noticed our neighbors shrub bush right outside our fence was looking really bad, so, I took a closer look and it had some slugs on it. Almost the whole bush is wiped out of its leaves. Now the slugs are hitting our roses very hard.

I placed some wild bird seed down to lure back the sparrows, but, they are not coming to eat it.

The neighbor told me to look over at the mountain at the trees. I looked over and everything looks brown from insects destroying the foilage.

I need to think of something fast or we will lose all our foilage on our roses. :(

Jim, I don't mean to discourage you from hybrid tea roses if that's the only kind you really like, but have you considered trying some roses that are tougher and more suited to your climate? There are lots of shrub roses, such as rugosas, that don't need spraying, will grow into big, beautiful bushes that will make your garden look lush and full, and you won't have to use all those toxic sprays. I'm not saying that's the complete answer, but using roses that are a lot tougher than hybrid teas, but are equally beautiful in their own way, might be an option to consider. Growing roses should be fun, and it sounds as though yours are giving you quite a bit of grief. There are many different varieties other than hybrid teas and floribundas that might work better for you. With your large yard you could have some gorgeous climbers and large shrub roses that will give you privacy and tons of blooms with a lot less hassle. I hope you don't mind my mentioning this, but a lot of people aren't really aware of what's out there in the rose world because most people just grow hybrid teas, which are the most difficult roses there are, and which require the most spraying, which can get expensive and will kill a lot of beneficial creatures in your yard and are toxic to the environment as a whole.

I wish you luck with whatever roses you decide on.

Ingrid

Ingrid, Courageous is a shrub rose and i'm going to keep it.
Next season i'm getting 2 more shrub types.
If the hybrids don't work out, I will ditch them!
Thanks for your comments, much apreciated!

JIM

Jim, awhile back you talked about getting the plain, boring, ordinary knockout bush. But Ingrid is right! there are some gorgeous! and very fragrant rugosas out there. I saw some at Powell Gardens. One in particular was very beautiful. The scent was very, very nice--apples-honeylike similar to my beautifully scented Tiffany, the colors are a gorgeous yellow beautiful! and it had flowers that look very similar to Tiffany as well. Even my mom immediately noticed it and likewise called it a very pretty rose. I was very impressed with that rugosa.

Ingrid, maybe what we need is some of your photos to help convince Jim on possible future alternatives. Jim, I really, really regret not getting the name of that Powell Garden rose but I swear, it looked so much like this rugosa (called Agnes)! beautiful and vibrant!

Here is another gorgeous rugosa called "Foxi"

Ingrid, Jim usually prefers to see the whole bush. Which makes logical sense to get the idea of massing, coloration, etc. With a few "killer" photos, I am sure our eyes will be opened to some gorgeous options out there. Jim, both of these are listed as very fragrant.

Jim hugs to you! maybe for an emergency measure, get that Safer Insecticidal Soap first! when things even out, you can return back to doing non-spraying.

Jim, Harold's idea was very good but sadly it takes a little time to lure in the birds. What you'll need to do is start in the later spring to let the birds get used to investigating your garden with those bird seeds. Also Harold's garden is very prolific, he's got dozens upon dozens of rose bushes. The same rule applies to me. As a starter gardener, the bees just aren't going to be as familiar with my garden. But once more and more flowers come in, they will slowly begin to gather.

P.S. today I saw three bumblebees! And one of them briefly visited my Gemini! I was so excited! However the ones that really "tumble" around in the flowers are my Lincolns and my Tiffany. Bless Lincoln it had just that one flower left that was already fading but boy did that strange bumblebee mutation love it, LOL! It also tumbled in the Tiffany. One normal looking, much tinier bumblebee was busy tumbling in the lavender flowers. I raced to get my camera, but it had already flown away (tears).

Let me clear something up, the rose slugs here are not just eating holes in the leaves, they are eating the entire leaf, only leaving the veins.

Right now i'm having a terrible time with all our roses, whether hybrid tea or shrub.
Our neighbors 6ft x 6ft shrub bush (not a rose) looks like heck! Leaves have been eaten so badly and what is left is all brown and dead looking.
I looked the slug up on the net and it looks exactly like a bristly rose slug. Not sure why they attacked her shrub?

I'll have to consider other roses.

How would you like to deal with these hungry critters. They shred leaves faster than Blackspot. LOL

{{gwi:329200}}

EEEEEEKS! poor you, so many disasters with your poor roses. I have written you a few times about that insecticidal soap. Get it right away! Also!!!! those evil rose slugs may be what is DESTROYING YOUR PLATINUM CANES! some types of rose slugs are known as cane borers. As I wrote to you some time ago, it it is essential that you put glue on any cuts or prunes or deadheading that you do! Safer Insecticidal Soap is still considered organic and it's supposed to kill rose slugs right away. Safer's is easily found at any store.

Bought the insecticidal soap today, but, it is raining out, suppose to rain all week. Can you believe that! LOL... I will spray it on anyways. I may have no leaves by next week if i don't aleast try.
Those rose slugs are so hard to see as they blend right in with the foilage and canes. And some stick fast and try to resist being taken off the bush...LOL

I see no borer marks on any pruned cane ends, but, I think I will seal them anyways after cutting to be safe. I have Elmers glue here.

JIM

I just went outside to spray and even in the rain, these rose slugs are munching away. I took over 100 off this morning and there another is 100 on it already. Unless I missed alot I could not see this morning. LOL

I have to laugh or i'd pull my hair out...LOL

JIM

Jim, lol! it's because those fat stupid rose slugs are getting fat on your leaves. Once they get their fill and stored energy, they'll start to want to lay eggs and guess where they want to start laying those eggs! yup! you guessed it! your canes! and when spring comes you will have a real mess on your hands. So protect, protect, protect!!! as much as you can.

AAAAARGH, rain! Jim, that is yucky news! keep spraying that soap when you get some clear coverage--the soap should eliminate the slugs per blast of application. Jim, rain is our worst enemy and now dreaded bl**Blughy. It always strikes! I've been there! 2 straight weeks of rain and look what happened to my once-pristine roses! The other years, did you get as much rain? In Kansas we always get tons of rain during the fall so Kansas becomes Bl***blughy territory those times. In Spring we get enough surrounding sun and are protected.

JIM I feel your pain, boy I've never seen such damage. A though cross my mine how about Bayer 3 in 1 the kind that you pour around the plant then the plant takes it up through its roots; just a though.LOL LOL
Harold

I've talked to a few people who tried the Bayer soil treatment, it did not work very good for them. Plus, it probably would kill earthworms. Hope tha soap doesn't hurt worms. That's all I need is to go out tomorrow and find a naked stripped rose bush with stiff dead earthworms laying on the soil...LOL...

It looks to me like they attacked our neighbors shrub bush first, now that it has hardly any green leaves left. They have geared up for a all out assault on our roses...LOL
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serenasyh, they just ate a 6ft x 6ft shrub, you would think they would be full by now? LOL
There must be thousands of them. They are hard to see as they blend in with everything. Plus, they roll into a tiny little ball when disturbed. LOL

JIM

Gaaaa, Harold and Jim, Insecticidal soap does not hurt earthworms, but Bayer 3-in-1 is highly toxic to earthworms. It contains Imidacloprid, which kills! earthworms and is rated highly toxic to earthworms. It also is suspected of interfering with bees' behavior patterns. I say stay away from Imidacloprid.

I found out that the type of rose slug we have has up to 6 generations per season. Yikes! LOL

I have to agree with the below article about them generally feeding at night, because there was not hardly any damage on Courageous yesterday, but, this morning it had lots of noticable damage, even from a distance of 55ft.

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Generally rose slugs feed at night. Depending on the species, young rose slugs feed on the upper or lower surfaces of leaves between veins, leaving a 'window' of translucent tissue that turns brown. As some species of rose slugs get larger, they chew large holes or the entire leaf with only the midrib remaining. Regular inspection of roses is important because feeding typically progresses quickly, and extensive leaf skeletonizing can occur if infestations are not noticed. In addition, with their coloring, they can be very difficult to spot on leaves.

Control: Rose slugs can be controlled by handpicking. They can also be removed by spraying with water. Once dislodged, they cannot climb back onto the plant. Insecticidal soap and horticultural oil are also effective against rose slugs.

I do have a bright side though. I will not have to worry about Blackspot, because I won't have any leaves to get spotted...LOL

I'm going to start a new thread soon...LOL

JIM