I think my plans are probably going to be about 85% shade perennials rather than too many woodland plants. Reason being--we are surrounded by woods and I see woodland plants everywhere already (even though I am not sure what they are!) so I want to use my space for more decorative plants. And I will probably end up paying for most of the plants in the long run!

Believe it or not, even though the size of this shade garden is huge, my yard is already broke down into different projects!! I am fortunate to be a stay at home mom so I do have the flexibility to do the work on it. Work I'm not afraid of or overwhelmed by--its the expense that brings me down!

Nursery beds........this means that you actually grow the plants in the ground (or raised bed) until transplanting time? Hmm..never thought of that. That would be more work for me than I originally planned--the area I have for potted plants is on top of weedless gravel--good drainage area.

I just went to the Missouri Botanical Garden yesterday (I go there regularly) and took some photos of some of their bulb beds, and what the foliage looks like among other plants. They have several beds of mini pansies that are higher growing plants than the dieing tulip foliage. I bet the tulips looked awesome surrounded by pansies like that! The tulips in my yard were done blooming when the existing Hostas started to unfurl. Seemed like perfect timing. I hope to be able to underplant them without choking the bulbs out.

At this point we have to continue trying to get rid of the billions of moles in this yard before I even think of planting billions of bulbs. I hate hate hate them. Every single day I walk along and see the ground suddenly start moving. Funny, all the planting I have done this year and havent seen a single grub worm, but I see tons of moles.

Hortwoman,

What a wonderful project! I know it seems daunting now, but taking a piece each year will really be the best way to go about this.

1) Poison Ivy: Roundup won't kill it unless you have gotten it when it is just first coming up. It takes brush killer to kill poison ivy. As a second option, you might consider collecting old boxes, and cutting them up. Lay the cardboard down over the patch of poison ivy and pile up raised beds made of compost--your hostas will love you! If you have a horse stable nearby, see if you can find someone to haul in a BIG truckload of the stuff (the stables practically beg you to take it).

2)Columbine, Ligularia, Tovara 'painter's pallette', Lady's Mantle, Aconitum, Hosta, Foxglove and several other shade perennials can be grown from seed. Check out the seed exchange here in the fall, or a seed catalog like Park's Seeds.

3) I would definitely recommend using some form of mulch to help buffer the temp swings in the pots over winter. Ideally, you should be able to plant them in the spring and let them mature from there without overwintering in pots. You could have a nursery bed or just plant them where you want them permanently and just tend to a small section each year.

4) Hostas--one of my great loves. They really aren't that expensive. You can buy large bags of named varieties (Elegans, Sum and Substance, Frances Williams, Blue Cadet, etc.) at the big box stores (Wal-Mart, Lowe's, Home Depot, etc.) at the beginning of the season for about $1 per plant. When they clearance them out, you can get them for about $.25 per plant. Sure, you're buying a bag of 20 Hostas of the same type, but grow them up and save them to trade! Check out the Hosta forum here or Hallson's throughout the growing season to sign up for the secret hosta swaps. Its a great way to get new plants for only the price of postage!

5) I don't know if Hostas will choke out bulbs, but I doubt it. I would just be more worried about the bulbs getting enough sun. Try naturalizing bulbs like grape hyacinths that reproduce and spread each year.

Don't give up yet on growing hostas from seed. My T&M seeds didn't work out either but I got seeds in a trade that worked great. You'll get all solid colored hostas unless you obtain seeds from special "streaked breeders" but you can still get some nice green, blue or gold hostas by growing from seed. I think it's best to get seeds from hostas that have good substance (thick leaves) and fast growers. I can probably mail you some seeds later this fall when they're ready.
You also might want to try heucheras from seed to get some interesting foliage. I haven't tried those yet but have seen some pretty pics of some grown from seed.
You can get just about any plants or seeds you want by trading through gardenweb if you're patient. You only need a little to trade with to get started and you're collection will soon grow faster than you can plant it all.
You need to start making a wish list on your trade page of the plants you are looking for.
Don't miss the winter sowing forum if you need to grow a bunch of stuff from seed. There's an extensive FAQ section there you'll want to read and also a section for exchanging seeds.
I've been working on getting rid of poison ivy too. I spray it with Round UP and I think it will be a constant battle forever but I have a lot less than I used to. Watch out - the dead sticks and roots can still make you break out.

Oh I will definitly participate in those
swaps.........granted I have something to offer! I want any kind of seeds, I dont care about them being true.

I honestly do not shop at Wal Mart for anything other than some seeds and supplies. I worked at a greenhouse before and learned not to shop at department stores like Wal Mart, Lowes, etc. The employees do not know how to take care of their plants, therefore the quality of them is not as high as at the nursery. However, if I happen to be shopping when a new truck has just rolled in, I will consider buying, anything but houseplants. BUT, if I can find Hostas at such a cheap price, why not give it a shot?? But let me check and see if we are talking about the same thing. In early spring, WM will get those box things that contain bareroot Peonies, or Daylilys, or Clematis and it is actually a bag of loose dirt and you have no idea what is in there or if it is alive. How much did you say they sell for in your area?? Those things seem to run high around here, for something that is no way guaranteed. However, if they sell for just a couple dollars, it could be worth a shot, considering each Hosta is going to cost me $5.00 at the nursery.

Brush killer, huh? My husband is out spraying some right now. Thank you very much for the cardboard suggestion, this will save a ton of money from buying weed barrier mat. My husband can get tons of cardboard at work. You say to top it with compost???? What if I put a layer of compost then mulch....as I worry the compost will wash away in the rain, since not far away is a 40 foot slope. It's a great suggestion, as I can get the fresh manure now and it will be ready for me in 2 years when I plant.

I am saying that I cannot plant for 2 years because it will be then before I can afford to buy all the plants. I already have the budget for next season maxed out!

I am going to check out the winter sowing forum, I am new to this website--I didnt even know the forum was there! I like to grow my seeds inside, did you do the same for your Hostas or did you winter sow??? I plan to grow every kind of Heuchra there is, I have always adored them!

Thanks for the interest in my post, I am one person who appreciates it greatly and takes all info seriously!

Your plans sound so exciting! I hope you will keep posting - your enthusiasm is like a breath of fresh air. :-)

There is hopw for growing those hostas from seed. I received seed for ventricosa and sieboldiana through trades here, to share with my son. I got some of both to germinate. They are young, about an inch to inch and a half tall, but looking good!

I also wonder about those prices at the box stores - they don't ever have stuff at those prices here. I have a few other sources, but it's very hit-or-miss on plants. Hope to see you over on the exchange forums - there are alot of good people here, who share generously. I think of many as online friends.

girlsaylor

Have you joined any gardening clubs yet? I encourage you to check out your local hosta society. You'll get to participate in local exchanges that way and probably tour some nice gardens. If it's like here, they have a wide variety of shade plants, not just hostas.
The Midwest Regional Hosta Convention is down here in Springfield next year and there will be some nice gardens on tour.
Some Round Up tips I've heard are to spray in late morning on a sunny day since the sun or heat helps it work. I'm not sure whether that means that using it in the deep shade would keep it from being as effective.
Hey! Your member page says you have boy/girl twins. I do too. Mine are in Kindergarten. They've been so much fun. Keep you busy though don't they.
I have a beautiful purple columbine in shade that I could send you some seeds from if you're interested. Just email me. They're aren't ready yet. What other plants are you looking for?

I meant to post the link below.

I have never before had the flexibility to join any clubs. Before getting married and having my twin babies, I was a single mother of my 11 year old and had to work work work my life away to make ends meet--work, school, homework, commuting. And I was a volunteer at Missouri Botanical Garden for a while, and regrettably had to give that up due to my busy lifestyle. I have much more time on my hands now, perhaps I will check into the clubs!! I would be more likely to join big groups than small ones, so I will check the St. Louis region.

My twins are a major handful!! At 5 months old, they are the boss around here! But fortunatly, they LOVE to go outside for stroller rides, so I can make laps around the yard for hours on end looking at the place, getting ideas, and of course watching out for snakes at the same time!

I would have to give a long long list of what I am interested in, so lets just sum it up to everything! I am still researching individual shade plants, and hopefully will be able to go seed searching within a week or two. It's hard to have time to go through the entire website. I have so many catalogs that I have saved since 1993 (I have millions!), I am checking many of the phots out from there. My favorite (shade gardening) catalog is Shady Oaks Nursery. I have these catalogs from years back and always admired the Hosta photos, but not having a shade garden back then kept me from researching everything else very much. So I am having fun learning new things.

I know that I want the basics--Astilbe, Heuchra, Columbine(I have columbine "Robin" seeds from years ago--I grew them in the sun??!), ferns,Bleeding hearts, Tiarella,Rodgersia (looks like poison ivy inthe catalog). I do have experience with shade ground covers, especially Ajuga- it is my favorite groundcover. I have grown Pachysandra, Liriope, Beacon Silver.

I think reserching and planning is my favorite part of gardening. I spend as much time doing that as I do pulling weeds!! :)

Jefferson city is about the same travel time, 2 1/2 hrs. since you are south of st. louis, you can connect with 44west and 50west instead of going way north to 70.

I've dug up some of the Hostas, ferns, astilbles, columbines to start over again, but still have plenty. we would just have to dig them up and divide and put half back in so we don't leave a bare spot. I've got someone coming over again to look at the house this evening....pray she wants to buy it...2 homes is a little too much money.

Growing plants from seed seems like a good plan since you have some time. I've never had much luck growing seed indoors but many shade garden plants will sprout up well under outdoor conditions. You could do some smaller nursery beds (a fall seeding works well as winter seems to stimulate germination for many plants.) Then when the seedling are big enough to handle- pot them up and move to your gravel area and start a new crop! Hostas, cimcifuga, ligularia, astilbe, corydalis, wild geranium species, columbine, Solomon's Seal, and Ladies Mantle are a few which will germinate under normal shade garden conditions. Are you going to plant any woody stuff? Some choice smaller shade tolerant trees, evergreens and shrubs make a nice 'bone structure' to frame your perennials and face down the woods.
You've got lots of fun work ahead of you!

If you apply yourself, you don't have to pay for plants, seeds, and cuttings at all. Anyone with an established garden should have plenty to offer you, in one form or another. Hostas are especially easy to share. Walk (or drive, horseback? - how far out are you?) around your neighborhood a lot and talk to the people. Always good to know the neighbors anyway. Say something like, "I've been admiring your garden! Especially the hostas! What kind are they?" Ask for tips and techniques. Then ask politely, "I would just LOVE to have some of that plant for my brand-new garden if you need to divide it sometime." Most of the gardeners I know would immediately grab the nearby shovel and chop out a chunk, asking if there is anything else you'd like to try.

Nobody should mind if you collect seeds in a landscaped park, or around office buildings, gas stations, and parking lots. You can get almost any seeds you like from the seed exchange forum for the price of postage.

Not all woodland plants are boring and if your area is anything like here, there are so many invasives that it can make woodland areas seem very boring although they should'nt be. There are a lot of cool early ephemerals which would make great companions to bulbs and Hostas.

I agree with the advice to not use any type fabric or plastic weed barrier. It will eventually need to be removed - a nightmare of epic proportions! It also prevents the soil underneath from gaining any improvement from the mulch and/or compost above it. Weeds that sprout on top of it grow roots through the fabric with no problem, making them impossible to completely remove. Fine roots from nearby trees and shrubs will also become enmeshed in it very quickly.

Regarding the cardboard, though. Great on flat land, but after a long dry spell, you can get hydrophobic soil conditions under it, and in the mulch on top, which could be a recipe for disaster on a slope. Keep the area watered often enough so that the cardboard is not allowed to dry. Why not keep the potted plants over the area so you only have to water once, in 1 place?

Hmmmmmmmm.......more problems to consider. I have some digital photos of the area but I have so many problems with webshots trying to upload them that I get frustrated and quit trying.

If you were to see the site yourself you would probably say not to mess with the small weedy area that is there. Because so much of the existing lawn is covered in shade and the shade garden could be established there by itself. I think that is what I am going to do--use this area first and work on the weedy area later. The way we mow this area right now the weeds do not invade my future shade garden, it would be easy to keep it separate. I could also use this area for my big shrubs that will go there in the future. Having those existing plants will encourage me to spend more time weeding and maintaining a little at at time, rather than trying to kill it all off at one time and risking damage to the slope or any other future problem you all have mentioned. Plus, planting some things now will keep the slope from giving away.

I am going to go out there and use some spray paint to mark the area for my path that will go there. We are getting some mulch given to us that is fresh and cannot be used for a couple of years yet. This mulch would come in handy for marking the path until we are ready to make the concrete pavers. I could even put down the cardboard to see how well this works for me before using it on the slope. Having the path there will make my project seem more alive and help to decide what plants will go where.

I think I am wanting to clean out the woody area just to maximize the space--I dont want to waste any of our 2 acres that we have, and all that poison ivy is no good anyway.

We have a 30 x 70 some odd feet almost dilapitated shed on our property that is absolutely full of snakes. This shed is right along side this shade area. On the opposite side of the shed is a very weedy and full of gravel area that is absolutely a waste. As much as we want to, we simply cannot afford to tear the shed down right now. It is the future site of a smaller shed and my beloved greenhouse. The former owners of this house own the feed business right across the road adn they used this shed for storage. All along the slope, there is piled up soil and rocks,which is raised up about 2 feet above the surface. It is absolutely hideous and takes up a large area of our property. And I cannot do anything to try to flatten it all out because the slope could give away. (Apparently the piles occured because of years of snow plowing in order to get into the shed during snow storms). My plan is to make raised beds out of the entire area--using railroad ties and filling in with dirt.(The bed will end up being about 6 x 200 feet) I will be reclaiming the yard space and making that hideous dirt pile into something usable! And this is a very large area in lenght--probably a full acre.

Once again--expense is a major issue. Any clue how much railroad ties are?? We can get used ones, but they are not good quality. This whole entire area is shaded as well, but with evening sun. Great site for future flower beds!!!

I love the idea of keeping the potted plants in the future site area! Why didnt I think of that!?! Now its time to finish my research and start seed hunting.

Good luck on the house selling--it is a majorly stressful time period!

Trying again.........

http://community.webshots.com/user/hortwoman2

WHY does this not form a link like everybody elses does?? I swear, every time I get on webshots I have a different problem every time. I dont understand why a company has to make things so freaking complicated. Anybody know of a better one than webshots?? I honestly do not have time to figure them all out. It took an hour and 5 minutes to upload 11 pictures.

Sorry, I got a little upset. All I wanted to do was show you all what the site looks like!!

Sorry my temper got away from me. I seem to have a real bad attitude about webshots....this is one case that may simply be my fault. I am not an idiot, can usually figure things out on my own, but I cant seem to make heads or tails out of webshots, and I dont know of other sites that do what they do. I am too busy researching other things!

Anyone who is reading and has photos on webshots, could you please tell me how to copy and paste my link from the site to this one?? I have tried everything and I cannot get it to paste as a hyperlink. Webshots offers no help or explanation for this.......why does simple "copy and paste" not work???!! In the other clubs I am in, people are always complaining about webshots but I dont take the time to see what they are talking about. And some have the attitude of "well what do you expect for free?".

Appreciate the advice...

Hortwoman,
Some very good advise here so far, but let me throw my two bits in =)

First, with the 'lasagne garden' method (laying down layers of cardboard, compost, etc.) instead of cardboard, try newspaper. It will conform to your slope much easier, breaks down faster, and should be easier to keep moist. After you hafe killed off the poison ivy, lay down several layers of newspaper over the area. You want six layers at the very least to start, ten would be better. cover this with some green material (grass clippings, kitchen scraps, coffee grounds, pulled chopped weeds, green tree and bush trimmings, manure, etc. Follow with a layer of 'brown' materials (more newspaper, fall leaves, 100% cotton or woll blankets even work.) Build up about 6-8 layers and cover with at least a half foot of finished or nearly finished compost, topsoil, etc. Ok, I hear you now saying 'Where the heck am I going to get all that?' Check with your local department of public works. Most cities have compost programs where you can bring in a truck and take all you can haul for free, they may even load it for you. If you don't have a truck, bring a shovel and lots of buckets!
This will provide you with a bed that can be planted either right away (with annuals or other shallow rooted plants) or you could wait until next spring to plant the permanent stuff. If run-off is going to be a problem, the same guys who give you free compost may also have wood chips for mulch.

Now, as for starting perenials from seed, check out the 'Winter Sowing' forum. Many shade loving annuals and perenials can be started with this method. I know winter is a long way off, but look at it this way, you have time to prepare! Collect seeds, containers, stock up on potting soil, etc. Winter sowing is a great, inexpensive way to get tons (and tons and tons) of wonderfull plants from seed. I winter sowed for the first time last season, ans am still amazed at the results. I have many of the shade lovers mentioned here (columbines, hostas, tovara, astilbe, foxglove, and more) started from seed at minimal costs. It is definitely worth looking into.

As for established plants, they can be 'heeled in' for the winter. Just dig a hole big enough for the pot, settle it in, and fill around the pot. You can also mulch or cover with straw and burlap for extra protection.

Now, how to post a link. That takes a little html =) To do this...

http://community.webshots.com/user/hortwoman2

or this

My Pictures

Do this: type "" with no spaces except between the 'a' and 'h'
Then write the text to click on (it could be the actual addres as in the first example, or 'my site' 'my picture' 'my garden' whatever you want it to say then type (with no spaces)

If this is confusing, just do a search for 'html help', there are plenty of websites out there with html tutorials =)

Hope this helps!
Garden Witch

Oh I am so embarrassed that someone else had to post my link for me!!! And the pictures arent even all that great anyway. You know how some things in life you handle without any problems at all and some thing are so simple but you cant get them figured out to save your life??? That's how I am with webshots!! I am sure it is just simple computer stuff that I missed somewhere. THANK YOU for helping me!!

Just yesterday, I was offered all the grass clippings that I want from a neighbor. It would work out perfect to put down the paper/cardboard (whichever is basically free) and the grass clippings all summer. Then this fall put down the leaves, and top it with mulch. I honestly dont know if this town has a compost program or not but I will check into it tomorrow. This project sounds like a gigantic compost pile in my yard!!! And its a project that can definitly be done.

Okay, it is time to check out the winter sowing forum. I have been told again and again to do it. Before I look at it though, expect me to ask a ton of questions so check back on this post periodically! I confess that I know nothing about winter sowing, and have never heard of it, but I am a whiz at germinating indoors all year long!!! Winter sowing is apparently done outside, correct?? Does this mean that the same seeds cannot be sown indoors where I have more control over them?? Okay, okay, I will quit asking questions here and go to that forum!

I alreay am well equipped with containers and supplies needed for starting seeds. I have been getting this stuff used from my university greenhouse for quite some time. Potting soil is an annual huge expense for me and everyone else I am sure!

A great great big thanks again.

Looks like you have a good system set up with your grow lights. You might not need winter sowing unless you run out of room. Winter Sowing works well for any seeds that have to be cold stratified and for anything you have trouble with when it's time to harden off. They're already used to being outside so it's easy. I had a lot of old seeds that I wanted to use up and sowed them in plastic donut boxes and other containers on my patio. When I grew my hostas from seed it was under lights. I started them in November and kept them under lights all winter so they were ready to put out by spring. Some I didn't plant the first summer but potted them up in strofoam cups and they wintered over alright in those on my patio. Since you already have lights inside and that's convenient for you, I'd stay with that until you run out of room.
I started a big shade garden about three years ago so I have a lot of plants that are getting big enough to divide. Maybe we can do some plant trading.
I enjoyed the pics of your family too. That brings back memories. I loved it when my twins were big enough to sit in highchairs and eat babyfood. Finally something that didn't take twice as long. I sat their highchairs side by side and could feed them both at the same time. I was thinking yours are probably close to that stage if they're 5 months old. I didn't get out much when mine were little and gardenweb helped keep me sane.

Oh wow!!! I am completely engrossed with this wintersowing information!! Where have I been??!!??

One thing I'm curiuos about, I thought wintersowing was designed for more native plants, but it apprears that most people posting are wintersowing annual seed. Is the success rate for regular old annuals very good?? I mean I understand that you are supposed to chose plants that are hardy but a lot of the ones they are doing are not. What is everyones success rate for wintersowing??

I will have a ton of questions so look out for my name!!!

Kellen and Kenzie have such different personalities. Kellen (the boy) is definitly a mommas boy and Kenzie is very self sufficient. Yes, they are at the highchair stage. Kellen is our little pig, he weighs 18 pounds and little Kenzie only weighs 12!!!! She has to be on Nutramigen formula and it doesnt have near the calories that Kellen's formula has. People freak out when they see "twins" with such different weights.

I do get outside often because my husband and son will take over with them so I can "do my thing". And being home all day helps to keep the ideas rolling in for my gardens. Unfortunatly, being home all day doesnt bring in much money!! But nothing stops me from gardening!

The very best way to obtain a lot of hostas without spending much money is to beg everyone you know with hostas, and also people you don't know (stroll around the neighborhood--even ones that you don't live in - looking to see who has hostas in their yard) to divide theirs and give you some. Hostas NEED to be divided every so often anyway. Don't plant them in containers while they await the move to their final home either--do what I did and make yourself a little 'hosta nursery' so they can get established and start to spread out. This is the easiest way I've found to propagate your own hostas. In two years time, when you're ready to move them, you'll be able to divide them again. Don't be discouraged when you first start if the hosta divisions you schlep from everyone you meet look sad the first year. Because when spring rolls around after their first winter, they'll come up beautifully. Make sure emerging hostas get enough water every spring so they'll get off to a good strong healthy start every year. If you do buy them. go to K-Mart or Wal-Mart and get the smallest ones they have. They have several varieties, small ones around 2 or 3 dollars, 1 gal. containers around 5 to 7 dollars -- they're WAY TOO expensive to buy from catalogs or on-line, sad to say. Save the catalog/on-line purchases for those varieties that you just can't live without, and then get only one and make babies. Hostas are also the only plant where it's worth it to get the sad half-dead ones that are marked down 50% - 75% -- as long as there is SOME sign of life, you can plant them and they'll come back in full--NEXT year. Do it like this and you'll have hostas out your ears within 2 to 3 years! Keep an eye out and collect as many different kinds as you can. I have about 20 different kinds now, and I this is only the third spring/summer of growing hostas and this year we FINALLY got the wooded lot on the side of our house ready for my ever expanding hostas. Oh yes, and don't forget to do the same with ferns! They take a little longer, but well worth it for a woodland shade garden!

Hortwoman, keep that enthusiasm going! Anyone who can handle twins can tackle almost anything the garden will throw at you.

Before you invest sweat-equity into those hostas, make sure you have no visiting deer. They will chow down in your "salad bar" and break your heart.

Hmmmmmmmmmm........we have every kind of pest that you can imagine around here, the worst being the moles. We have snakes, rabbits, and squirrels, but I have yet to see a coon or a deer. In fact, I have lots of Hostas already and I have yet to see slug damage on them! I dont believe there is a deer problem around here. I have a lot of Glads growing in a cutting garen in the veg garden, no damage to them, no damage to any of the veggies. We wake up every day to holes dug in the yard--done by all the critters I suppose.

I hadnt realized that deer were that harmful to Hostas. Thanks for the warning!!

Speaking of Hostas, I went to WAl Mart today and checked out their nursery. They have one gallon Hostas for $4.86 and quart Hostas for $2.50. I had no idea I could buy Hostas by the quart! That is what I need to do right now, build a nursery bed, plant a lot of those Hostas and save the seeds. Its' too bad I cannot plant right now. Those Hostas would be so happy in the ground! I will have to watch for when these plants get clearanced out.

THANKS for that info, I would ordinarily have not bought anything from a clearance rack, I am going to put all my faith into it!

Some of the cheap box store hostas are good ones. It just depends on the variety. Some good ones that you might find at bargain prices:
Sum and Substance
Gold Standard
So Sweet
Halcyon
Frances Williams (beautiful but the leaves usually burn)

But by the end of the season when they are marked down, the tags have been moved around and it's a gamble whether you're going to get what you want.

Sorry about not looking back here earlier. I'll give you my $.02 on your questions.

1) Yup, the box stores usually get in large bags of hostas at the same time they get those stupid little "boxes" of other plants. Always check to make sure that there are still some white roots on the hosta, and it is even better if there are still some leaves in the bag that aren't all slimy. They will be white, but will green up when planted. I'm the King of Bagged Hosta, mostly because I get some every year, and you can quickly learn to identify the right bags to buy at the end of the season, and which ones to stay away from. Sure, you'll learn the hard way once or twice, but you still end up saving a bundle in the end.

2) The cardboard might cause the compost to slide off if it is on a heavy slope, but dense plantings of Hosta should help stabilize the soil. If you keep your compost moist enough to keep the Hostas happy, it will break down completely in one to two years, because it will never dry out. By that time, the weeds underneath will have been smothered. Seeds that might have blown in during the meantime, however, are a different story. Consider a barrier (RR tie or 2x6 staked into the ground) if you are really worried about slide-off.

Even WalMart has trouble killing Hostas. They're pretty darn hardy, besides they're really nice when they first get them. The $2.50 qt jobbies fill in nicely by the 2nd year, and the $4.50 gallon ones can be separated into 3 or 4 if you don't mind waiting a year or two for them to expand. The only Hostas I buy from a nursery are the exotic ones.

hortwoman, you've got your hands full, but here's my tips. brush killer will kill poison ivy, but you will have to keep applying. one little piece of root alive will start a whole new plant. cardboard or newspaper is essential, since it also keep p.i. and weeds from coming back. mulch or manure is also essentil in wooded areas, because of the multitude of tree roots, it will be dificult to dig beds. adding inches will make digging easier, and give your new plants room to spread their roots. when i did my shade garen, i covered all with newspaper, 10 layers overlapping, added all the mulch, grass and manure i could scavenge. since you arent going to plant for a year or two, you can use anything fresh, grass or even chipped up trees branches. they will "cool off" before you plant. many landscape companies and city or local power companies give these away.
as far as plants go, all the catalogs sell daffs by the bushel, this is the cheapest. plant among the hostas, not right on them, and they will not compete. if you put bulbs in first, mark these areas with a colored mulch, then when you plant hosta and other things you know where the daffs are. eventually leaves will cover up the different colored mulch in the wooded areas. for hostas, gilbert wild nursery sells specializes in hosta. they have a sale every year, 100 plants, for $100.00. they tend to be only a few different varieties,5-6, but for your situation, quantity is what counts. you can buy the special ones elsewhere. ferns are another great shade plant and can be had for free. find a wooded area and dig them. around here you can dig them by the hundreds. if you have a moist shady area, try petasites, it is large, impressive, and 1 plant creates a 10 foot clump in 5 years. but it can be invasive. caladiums provide summer color, if you are willing to dig every fall, and restart every spring. they are not very expensive if bought in quanity. coleus is an easily started annual from seed for shade
i agree with you about not destroying the ridge along the gravel, it keeps the slope stablized. after you take down the building, add a load of dirt along the ridge and plant it with a vine to cover it.i have honeysuckle here, and i'm sure you do too, it is free and it will grow in shade - but not as invasively. the gravel is a wastland, but railroad tyes are 5$ a pop here, so probably out of the question for you. why not just add 3-4 dump trucks of dirt, mound it into beds, and dont cover the gravel where you want the path ?? have it be more naturalized than formal squared railroad tye beds?? good luck with your project, susgarden

Does part of your shade garden have limestone gravel or it that just where the pots will go? You might have trouble getting the soil acidic enough for some plants. I'm not cerain but I think hellebores will tolerate the higher pH. Did you get my email?

Christie, I did not get your email.

The "gravel garden" is not the shade garden that I am discussing in this topic, it is a different shade garden that will be done after this one is done. Somehow, I got to talking about it as well, I can see how it would get confusing.

The original shade garden is 90% lawn right now and 10% poison ivy. I can start planting tomorrow if I wanted to and could afford to. I could also completely ignore the poison ivy area that leads to the slope if I wanted to. I am going to make things easy on myself and just start with the lawn area; it is a huge space to begin with. Then I can work on the weedy area a little at a time.

The second shade garden is what I call the "gravel garden" that you see in the pictures. I am going to reclaim this area by putting down railroad ties and filling in with topsoil. The gravel area is a huge driveway that leads to the cruddy shed in the photos. Behind this shed is a great little hideaway area that I can put the containers that will be planted later. There is some spots in shade, some in sun, so I can grow sunny perennials also.

So the gravel area is just for the pots. The spot where I will lay down the railroad ties is along the front of the old shed. I will rake away as many of the limestone rocks as possible (great advice/thinking about the ph issue).

Susgarden, the railroad ties are actually a temporary fix, as far as appearance goes. I am only putting them up to hold in the soil for the raised bed (the bed is raised in order to be level with the ridge). After a couple years or so, we will be able to afford the fancy rocks to make this raised area more attractive. We are actually going to do the same thing in another area of our yard, except it is an actual retaining wall. The railroad ties are just extra reinforcement for the wall, then we will mortar in the flat rock in front of the railroad tie wall for the finished look. We will just leave the ties in the same place. Rock is NOT cheap, so it is going to have to wait,but I think the wall/beds will be sturdier with the railroad ties behind them anyway.

Now, where is it again that I can get Hostas for $1.00 each???!!!?!!

I have two suggestions based on my experience converting a tree covered lot to a shade garden.
One is do some research on "lasagna gardening."
Basically it is using newspaper/paper as a heavy mulch which tends to choke out Everthing underneath. Then you add soil, manure & light mulch and plant on top of the paper. The paper turns into a papermache-like sheet that is almost as effective as the black fabric mulch & it decomposes eventually & adds nutrients to the soil. (Worms love it!)
And it is much cheaper. After all who doesn't have a lot of newspaper to recyle? I get neighbors & relatives to save papers too; they think I'm weird but they do it.

Second, the poison ivy is going to be extremely hard to get rid of. You will have to use a brush killer -- Roundup does make one.
But even that is not likely to end your problem completely. Mine pops back up all the time. I am not sure if it is from the roots or if it seeds from the neighbors lot. (Does poison ivy seed?)
This year we bought a garden auger. The guy that I bought it from (on eBay) explained that you can set the auger in the center of the plant (at ground level) that you want to remove & drill. It will take the plant up by the roots & you never have to touch it except to tranfer it to a garbage bag.

Hmmmm...Maybe your computer thought I was spam. You can try sending me an email. There's a link to send email if you click where it says MY PAGE. I was going to send you some seeds if you want them.
If you watch in February when Lowe's and Wal-Mart have bare root hostas with their bulbs, I think they work out to be around a dollar each but each plant may only have one eye. They eventually catch up though. It's best to buy those when they first come in rather than waiting until they are picked over and stressed from being in a bag. You could get a bag of Sum and Substance and a bag of sieboldiana 'elegans' which are large hostas and they would eventually fill up a big area of your shade garden. I've bought those before and potted them up and left them in my garage until after last frost, then planted them outside. They did very well. I've read about some people getting mismarked bags but mine were labeled correctly. The drawback is that you get a dozen or so of all the same variety which isn't so bad I guess - as long as you stick to the best ones.
I'll put a link below to Hostas by the Handful but I don't think any of the them would be labeled. Mystery might be fun. I haven't ordered from them before.

Best way to get tons of newspaper for mulch--drive to your closest recycling center on a Saturday morning, and ask everyone bringing newspapers if you can have them--you'll fill your vehicle in no time. You can also go to your closest newspaper office and ask for all their vending machine and retail returns--they have to pay to have these papers hauled away, and will probably be thrilled to have someone take them. I recommend that you use the newspaper 8 or 10 layers thick, BUT take a small knife and stab holes every foot or two, which prevents water buildup in the first few weeks. Don't use the colored supplements in the paper--many of the colored inks have heavy metals and other toxins in them.
When you are ready for hosta let me know--I'll send you some Clausa, which is a hosta variety with an upright blade shaped leaf, about 15 inches tall, plain green, but it spreads by underground runners, is VERY robust and enthusiastic (the polite way of saying it's invasive), and will hold your slope area firmly in place. Just don't plant it near your "nice" hostas--it will try hard to take them over.
Hostas from seed is easy--find people with hostas in their yard in the fall and ask if they mind if you pick some seed pods. Wait until the pods are dry and just about to split open before you pick them, and chill the seeds for a few weeks in your fridge, then you can plant them in flats inside. Or take the really easy route, which is what I do--harvest the seeds and simply scatter them over the top of your outdoor nursery bed, scratch them in very lightly, and forget about them until they come up in the spring. You can even scatter them in heavily mulched beds--push the mulch aside, scatter the seeds, and push the mulch back over them. Not much effort, lots of free hostas! Good luck--Laurie

HORTWOMAN, SORRY I DIDNT GET BACK TO YOU SOONER, HAD NOT REVIEWED THIS THREAD FOR AWHILE. THE LINK CHRISTIE LEFT ON THE THREAD, IS THE SAME PLACE I HAVE DEALT WITH, GILBERT WILD NURSERY. THEY DONT LABEL THEM, BUT I GOT 100 PLUS, AND PROBABLY 70% WERE GOOD SIZED ROOTS, THE OTHERS NEEDED A YEAR TO GET GOING. THERE WERE 5-6 DIFFERENT VARIETIES, BUT ACTUALLY VERY FEW PLAIN GREEN. GOOD LUCK, SUSGARDEN

http://community.webshots.com/album/145261563ziNmKD

Please disregard this photo,I have already posted these on this thread. I still have not mastered the art of posting photos-I am just testing. If you are reading this and the link above is a purple color then I will be just tickeled to death!

It's NOT purple, but DOES take you to your pics if you just copy and paste into your browser! (aka it works!)

:D

Paula

I purchased bare root hostas last year at walmart when they clearance out their root stock. I got 5 for a dollar in the package and they are as big as the one that I bought the year before at a local nursery for $7.99. I have already divided and transplanted them this year. I also received 3 hosta babies which were winter sown at a local plant exchange a few weeks ago and they are doing great. From one 1 gallon hosta and 5 hosta tubers, I now have 10 or 12 plants in just 2 years. I have 2 more that really need to be dug up and divided when I have the time.

You are so right Walmart doesn't have the knowledge or manpower to care for their plants but you can get some really good bargains if you are there at the right time.

BTW, I also bought 3 bleeding heart bare root plants for $1.00 and a Weigelia bare root shrub for $1.00 the same day and all of those plants have unsurpassed my expectations.
Penny

Deers love love love love love love (need I say more?) hostas. If you live in a rural area with deer, don't waste any time at all with hostas. They will be eaten to the ground within a week.

My mother-in-law just bought a house last year in the Ozarks. She carefully lifted all her hostas (about 100+) and transplanted them in a huge shade garden she was planning in the woods of her backyard. She left for a week to go back and finalize the move from Kansas city. On her return, every single hosta was gone. She asked her neighbors if someone came by and stole them, and they said there was a parade of happy, fat deer that camped out and had a lovely picnic.

They were big, healthy hostas, so they survived to put up more shoots, but she says nothing gets more than a couple of inches high before a deer comes by and snacks on it. Over the past year, they all died out.

The site http://www.mydeergarden.com has a good database that includes info on how often deer might bother a plant - note that deer resistant doesn't mean deer-proof. A hungry deer will eat most anything.

Also, the MO Botanical Gardens website has a well hidden search engine that is great. Try http://www.mobot.org/gardeninghelp/plantfinder/Search.asp

Look into deer-resistant, hosta alternatives with interesting foliage. Some of the deer-resistant varieties I've had great success in MO are:

Aruncus dioicus - goatsbeard
Asarum canadense - wild ginger (looks alot like a small hosta)
Astilbe (all types) - astilbe (can't go wrong with astilbe)
Athyrium (all types) - Japanese painted fern (wonderful for foliage)
Pulmonaria (all types) - lungwort (great selection of different foliage types - I like the spotted ones)
Ligularia (all types) - leopard plant (yes, looks like daisies in the shade with round, hosta leaves!)
Dicentra (all types except spectablis) - bleeding heart (a classic with fern-like foliage, long bloomer here, spectablis needs too much sun)
Ajuga (all types) - ajuga (good ground cover for woodland margins)
Carex (many types) - Japanese sedge (the variegated types seem to be more shade tolerant, I also have some great orange sedge, but can't remember genus species)
Polystichum acrostichoides - Christmas fern (every shade garden must have a Christmas fern, don't ask me why)
Osmunda cinnamomea - cinnamon fern (see description of Christmas fern)
Vinca major - vinca (if you need to cover that hill with something less itchy than poison ivy, think vinca)

The list goes on and on, but that's all that readily comes to mind. Between the big list at mydeergarden and the database at MBG, you should find anything you need.

Mark

OH no! How heartbreaking! Your story and list of resources has me so discouraged Mark!!

We just bought this house last fall. Our house is considered rural (although we are just a couple miles from town). We are surrounded by woods, less than 100 yards is a wheat field, and beyond that just about every kind of field you can imagine. I am sure that we have everything that attracts deer, without having yet researched deer-attractive sites.

However, after the past 10 months here, the only deer we have seen are the 3 hanging on the wall! I have 25 Hostas that are planted right next to the house, and have just recently planted 30 hosta babies in a nursery bed right along side the woodland area where my big Hosta bed will go. None of them have been touched! We are bombarded by rabbits currently and squirrels, and the only damage we have found so far is digging holes in the ground. These critters are all over our veg garden, yet the only signs of damage is that the rabbits keep taking the straw that I used for mulch around tomatoes!

Perhaps, it is just not the right time of year for deer to invade? Maybe it will happen yet??

Maybe my property will not be attractive to deer, although that is a long shot! Especially when you consider that right next door to us is a huge feed/fertilizer business. I would think that would attract deer for miles..... there was so much corn coming through here in big trucks last fall, it was all over the road. MAYBE, this could be a good thing for me, as maybe the deer get so full on this feed that they may not mess with my hostas??????? We also have a dog that is real close to our wooded area, can having dogs deter deer????

I know, I know, wishful thinking!!!! I dont even know what deer eat, although I know people make plots of corn for the sake of hunting.

PLEASE, anyone with insight on the deer issue, give me your input on this! I will do my own research but you guys are the best for quick info!!

I live on ten acres in the country and have two huge hosta beds. This year I bought some cheap fish line and strung it around the trees about 3-4 feet high that encompass the hostas, and hung wind chimes in the area. Between the two, it has kept the deer out of these beds. They did manage to get some hostas that were planted around a tree that were not protected, but I figure they were a 'sacrifice' for the rest of the hostas :(

This makes me feel lucky to not have a deer problem. Mccordmw - What a shame about your MIL's hostas. What county is she in? I'm in Greene.
Ratherbegardening - I like the windchime idea.

Hortwoman thanks for starting this forum. I've read every single post! We moved two years ago from many years in the city to 3/4 acre of woodland on the water. Our equivalent pest to your poison ivy is brambles and mint. It's a very different kind of gardening to what I'm used to and I'm learning all the time. We figured it would take a five year plan just to get things tidied! Two years into it things are coming right along. We skimmed the front portion of the garden with a bobcat last week and last night I saw mint poking its head through - AGAIN. We've poisoned it, burned it, dug it up and it keeps coming back (previous owner planted it). I have some in a POT in my kitchen garden and that's the best place for it in my opinion!

We have finally given up with deer repellants and are fencing the rest of the front half of the lot which was half-fenced when we moved in. We back on to woodland and I'm okay with leaving that part open - which is why I'm so interested in the comments here because I have a similar situation to yours. I'm copying what a rose nursery has done that looks lovely: deer fencing with rambling roses growing up it. There are some very prolific kinds of rambler roses (I've been over on the Rose Lovers in the Pacific Northwest forum and learned plenty). Although the deer fencing (wire) is not as costly as other types of fencing it is a major expense and will be done in stages with us doing most of the work ourselves. But the peace of mind knowing I can safely grow roses and hostas is worth it to me! We have no plans to move away from here .

I've planted some cornus canadensis (Bunchberry) and while it seems to be slow growing (maybe I'm just impatient!) it is a very pretty groundcover and does well in shade. AND the deer have left it alone.

I loved your pictures! lovely family. Here's some pictures of my project!

p.s. Here's some help on how to post a link (scroll down to the link part). It's the only thing about this HTML stuff I get! Where it says URL that's where you insert your link.

Hey Sunshine, for some reason I could not open any of your links. Anyone else having problems with them? I think my problem is simply that: I'M A POSTING MORON!! Actually, I think I finally figured it out.........maybe.

So far the only deer problems I am having is fear of deer problems. Although I do not have my shade bed planted yet, I do have other hosta beds and no signs of damage! However, I will not kid myself, we have a very high deer population around here, you have to watch for them year round while driving down the road, and particularly so on the highway that I live on.

If I could I would build a fence around our entire property, not only to fence out the deer but neighborhood dogs as well. And I am a dog lover! However, I am not a lover of dog owners who just let their dogs run at night, knowing they are not in their own properties at night at all, because at any time of day, they are on my property or at the business next door, hanging out, waiting for handouts because the feed/fertilizer owner feeds them, and this owner used to own my house! Just the other day, I went outside and found a huge pile of dog poop on a bed of Impatiens.......within hours the few plants in that spot were dead! I knew better than to try to wash off the poop, as then it would spread to other plants and it was runny poop so I could not pick it up. And there was further damage done to the bed next to this one, as the dog just walked right through it to reach its pooping spot.

We have a yellow lab that gets put in a our huge indoor/outdoor kennel at night, where she is safe and very happy. No excessive barking or car chasing or cow chasing. No hanging out at other people's homes where she is not appreciated. Why cant other dog owners be more responsible?

Sunshine, do you have a skeeter problem in Vancouver living on the water? We have so many mosquitos here I wont even put up a bird bath!

I will keep trying to check your pictures, maybe my computer is just acting up!

Hi H/W,

Yes, skeeters are literally a pain. We have a salmon stream running through our property and there's a still pond part of it where they hang out and party in between taking chunks out of me for their dinner (husband never gets bitten). I am really personally opposed to DEET etc. and that definitely curtails my evening outdoor activities. There's some times when they seem to be worse. We have fish in the constructed pond that seem to take care of them and that is also moving water. We got one of those electric wasp things you hang out on the deck and it zaps a lot of wasps and a few skeeters. Every window in this house is screened and that helps too.

The expense and bother of a fence were the very LAST thing we wanted to do. Since we plan to stay here we see it as an investment; we either forget gardening and surrender to the deer or fence in a portion of the lot we want to grow vegetables and flowers, leaving the rest of it to wildlife! We get black bears around here too and while they would just break down a fence they're not after the roses (go for fruit)

Deer also leave a trail behind them (literally) that looks like it came from a giant species of hamster. Something else I don't want in the garden anymore. Nervy creatures, we caught one drinking out of the pond! (counted the fish and none disappeared through her slurping)

There are some forums here about deer and one very funny one I read yesterday; the poster wants to nominate his resident doe for the deer Olympiad (she jumped a high fence and used his rockery as a salad bar) - so even a fence isn't 100% deerproof. Having visited a rose centre who have a deer fence grown over with roses that add another foot or two to the height works for them. A really thick rambler rose can withstand any grazing from the other side and their livelihood depends on protecting the 700 roses they have on their property.

don't know the problem with the links. I just checked them and they were okay.

Here's the URL's to copy and paste:

http://www.cnr.vt.edu/dendro/dendrology/syllabus/ccanadensis.htm

http://ca.f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/sunshinecoastgardener/album?.dir=/bde2&.src=ph

http://hotwired.lycos.com/webmonkey/reference/html_cheatsheet/

Hortwoman, I don't have poison ivy, but I do have poison oak, which are pretty much the same as far as I'm concern. Anyways Use a mixture of RoundUp and Brush Begone with(now this is important to use) Deisel fuel or dish soap. Why use ask, because it breaks down protected coating that the plant has on it's leaves. We have a big problem here with poison oak and using this mix has killed it died, died. Has not come back up in two years so far. Also, you might want to talk to a Master Gardener at our County Office. They are there to help in anyway possible. Good luck

Hortwoman,

Moles aren't really what should worry you,all they eat are grub worms and insects; now voles, they are a HUGE problem, they are vegitarians, and will eat the root of your hostas, eat you bulbs, and the roots of may planets. Do you see mounds of dirt, and long runs of slightly elevated dirt runs from the mounds? Then you have voles. They are hard to get rid of, I am still trying to find the best way to keep them from my plants, but many have fallen to this little creature. Type vole repellent into the search engine and you will find a lot of different ways to get rid of them. Right now I am trying a repellent that you spray on everything, it's a caster bean oil, anyway it's suppose to make then sick and make them leave the area. There seems to be less activity, but it is too early to tell just yet. Good luck on your garden!

Kendal

Zipping through the thread, I saw the concern with hostas and deer. Just read recently that deer won't eat if hostas inter-planted with foxglove(poison to them) or chives (bad taste). Since these are easy to grow from seed, thought I'd pass it along.

Hmmmmmm..........I am curious about the mole/vole issue. They do the same thing, correct? As in making the raised paths on the surface of the ground. This year, several times I have been walking along and actually seen the ground move from these things! I honestly am not sure if they are moles or voles, I have just always treated the ground for moles. I will check into this.

Also, on the deer issue, do chives grow in the shade? I like the idea of a deterent (sp) that can cheaply and easily be grown from seed!

And one last issue, about the poison ivy, I am curious that we may also have Virgina Wintercreeper, which I have recently learned looks a lot like poison ivy. Upon closer inspection I have noticed two different plants that look identical scattered throughout the area, one is a bright teal green and the other is grass green. I will take a picture soon to see if we can tell the difference, without getting too close to the poison ivy!

Virginia Creeper will mostly have five leaflets but if you look close, some of the leaves may only have three so it's confusing especially if the Virginia Creeper and poison ivy are mixed together. This link at the MO Dept. of Conservation website has some other look alikes too. http://mdc.mo.gov/nathis/plantpage/flora/poivy/
The one below also has some photos of look alikes. Maybe if you watch for fruit, that will make it easier to tell what you have.

Somebody told to me that, instead of buying the small hosta plants, they buy the larger ones, then divide them right away. I tried this, and it worked fine. I got 3 leafed-out, well-rooted plants out of one $6 sale plant from Lowe's.

You can inspect the base of the plant to see how many "natural" divisions you are likely to get out of it, but as long as there is some root and one leaf on a piece, it's likely to grow.

I found an inexpensive place to get hosta seed. I've not ordered from them yet. Somewhere I've heard you don't get very many seeds per pkg. but its worth it if they are viable unlike T&M. Check it out. And good luck with your project. Barbara.

The caster oil I used worked wonders, and within a week there was no vole activity, but you have to use to abut every 6 weeks to keep them from coming back.

Kendal

YOur new home sounds like mine five years ago. I did not have to contend with poison ivy but weeds were the main event under the two acres of burr oak we have. I wanted to combat the mosquitoes but cutting back the brush and lifting the trees so a breeze could blow through. I weed a lot. and I have the bulbs, hosta and MANY other shade plants now growing nicely. The trees had fertilized the ground for so many years my plants thrive and I am constanly dividing so I have not found gardening to be overly expensive, YOu will be amazed at how many things will grow under your trees. Water is an issue with mature trees competing so I water once a week. I have a well though, so I am not paying for water. I only have trouble with slugs, and they are a pain! Good LUck!