Salvia clevelandii

13 years ago

Hello!

I planted a number of salvia clevelandii on the slope behind my house, and they seemed happy for 2-3 years. Didn't mind being on a steep, dry, rocky slope, and the deer left them alone.

Suddenly, this spring, the leaves on two of them turned bright red, over the course of several weeks, and then the plants dried up and died.

Is s. clevelandii just short-lived, or do you think something else caused this? I'd happily go plant more, but not if I have to replace them every couple of years, because it's kind of a pain to get down there.

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Comments (20)

hybridsage
13 years ago
mlevie:
From some of the post I understand that S.clevelandii
is short lived. Westele maybe able to help who
is in the same Zone as you. I don't know if your on
the coastal area or desert side of the mountains.Rich
is also very well versed so I will let them answer your Question.
Art
CA Kate z9
13 years ago
Yes, S. clevelandii are short lived... about 5 years in ideal conditions.
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Interesting to hear what you say about the adobe soil. I have some adobe soils in the front of my property , but that is not where there garden is. That is Brakett soil. Limestone marl and/or caliche with 2 " of topsoil.I am not able to water this garden much at all,during the summer. We will get some rain. Maybe I will try it again and water it a bit more. I saw some at that nursery , the last time I bought dirt. How do you think it will do in an amended brought in coposty garden soil? I had it in a limestone scree before. I probably got it through the winter and then dropped the ball during the summer. I went to Las Pilitas site and was reading about their philosophy about soils. It is such an interesting site. He has a no amend native soil philosophy. I used to do things this way but things weren't growing well so now I amend a bit with decomposed granite and a bit of compost. . Even the natives.
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Image by: Clare_CAMichelia Figo var. SkinnerianaWhich Shrubs Smell Good? - Fragrant Plants The following list of fragrant plants was compiled by Clare_CA. Please note, this list is considered a work in progress with additional fragrant plants added over time. Plant Name Abelia mosanensis ‘bridal bouquet,’ fragrant abelia Abelia trilora Acidanthera, 'Peacock orchid' Agastache ‘Summer Breeze’ Agastache foeniculum Anise Hyssop Aglaia odorata Aloysia virgatas, Sweet Almond Azara microphylla Beaumontia grandiflora Blanc Double de Coubert rugosas Boronia Boronia megastigma Brassavola nodosa (Lady of the Night orchid) Brugmansia Brunfelsia americana Brunfelsia australis Brunfelsia Nitida (Lady of the Night) Brunfelsia pauciflora Buddleia Asiatica Calycanthus occidentalis, Spice Bush Cananga odorata Carolina allspice, Calycanthus sp. 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mlevie
Original Author
13 years ago
Thank you Art and westelle!

So a follow-up question....can anyone suggest sages that might last a little longer? We're near the coast but the site is very sage-friendly, I'm also growing s. apiana and artemisia tridentata down there and everybody seems happy.

In particular I love s. clevelandii for the fragrance, I can smell it fifty feet away!
rich_dufresne
13 years ago
The persons who can best answer these questions are:

Bert Wilson of Las Pilitas Nursery:
http://www.laspilitas.com/

Bart O'Brien of Rancho Santa Ana Botanic Garden:
http://www.rsabg.org/

and one of our posters, ccroulet

I would make note of the soil type, its depth, the amount of moisture it gets and can hold, the direction of the slope, and where prevailing winds come from.
ccroulet
13 years ago
This is a very interesting topic to me. I've propagated my own S. clevelandii from wild cuttings and seed, in addition to growing a couple of Winnies that I bought at Las Pilitas. I've also propagated S. apiana, S. mellifera and S. eremostachya, and, for the first two species, I have plants in the ground. But I haven't been doing it long enough to find out how long they last. Be aware that many plants sold in the trade as S. clevelandii are really hybrids with S. leucophylla. I mean plants other than "Allen Chickering" and "Pozo Blue," which are acknowledged hybrids. Most growers have never seen S. clevelandii in nature, and they don't know what it really looks like. "Winnifred Gilman" is authentic S. clevelandii, however.
mlevie
Original Author
13 years ago
I'm sure that the specimens I planted were grown by Annie's Annuals in Richmond, and on their web page they say that what they sell are Winnifred Gilman seedlings (see link).

They didn't all die this year, but the larger ones did. I suspect westelle is right that clevelandii is just not very long-lived.

I'm not restricting myself to native sages for this site--but it's very steep (maybe 45 degrees) and covered in poison oak, so I can't replace plants every couple of years and I can't coddle anything I plant. It'll get occasional water for the first summer, and then it's on its own.

Here's as much cultural information as I can give you, I'd love to hear your suggestions!

-we are about two miles from the coast just south of San Francisco. However, we are in a very sunny microclimate, we get very little fog during the day, and the slope faces south.

-precipitation is on the high end for the Bay Area, maybe 29 inches a year. The soil is very rocky and drainage is excellent, although I have found it to be somewhat variable from location to location on the slope.

-winds in the winter can be fierce. I've never measured them but they have been known to toss a wooden bench across our side yard.

Thank you for your help, and if I've forgotten any information you need, please let me know!

Here is a link that might be useful: Annie's Annuals link
ccroulet
13 years ago
That's a lot of rain for S. clevelandii, but they may get something close to that naturally in some of the highest parts of their range (Inaja, Palomar Divide). Your soil sounds OK. In nature, they grow in gravel or what amounts to highly-fractured rock. Winter winds as you've described them should not be an issue.
CA Kate z9
13 years ago
If annie's things grow good for you I can give you a list of all the Salvias that I got at Annie's that have died from our heat. But here are the ones I bought at Bay area and Santa Rosa area nurseries... they all struggle here so should do great for you.

Apiana from Cal-flora
Bucchannii from Cottage Gardens
Salvia fbuholwayiorskaohlei (ForsskalÂs Sage ) -- Berkley
Salvia greggii ÂTeresaÂ -- Emerisa Nursery
Salvia iodantha -- Cal-flora
Salvia leucantha "Midnight" X S.elegans = ÂAnthony ParkerÂ -- Cal-flora
Salvia leucophylla Â FigueroaÂ -- Cal-flora
Salvia lyrata "Burgundy Bliss" -- Orchard
Salvia mexicana ÂLimelightÂ -- Cottage Gardens
Salvia mexicana x hispanica ÂByron FlintÂ -- Cal-flora
Salvia muelleri -- Cottage Gardens
Salvia sagittata *** "Ecuador"-- Boething Nursery
SALVIA pratensis "Rose Rapsody"
SALVIA nemorosa "Caradonna"
SALVIA nemorosa "May Night" (x sylvestris)
SALVIA x sylvestris "Blauhugel" (nemorosa)
SALVIA gesneraeflora "Tequila Sunrise"
SALVIA coccinea "Forest Fire"
mohavemaria
13 years ago
{{gwi:10327}}
Our S. clevlandii is the big blue flowered plant on the left of the pic. It is 6-7 years old and perfectly healthy. It is big and I have to do some serious pruning on it after its flower bracts turn brown or it would be huge. I try to keep it no more than six feet across when in bloom and four feet when I prune it.

This is not particularly short lived to me and our conditions are certainly not ideal for any living thing with 112 degree weeks in the summer and 10 percent humidity with hair dryer winds but this salvia handles it with grace.

And you are right about the smell, it is heavenly.

Maria
ccroulet
13 years ago
Just from what I can see in the photo, your "Salvia clevelandii" is probably a hybrid. But, I agree, it's spectacular.
mlevie
Original Author
13 years ago
Well, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that I get too much rain and too little heat for s. clevelandii and that's why it kicked the bucket so soon...my consolation is that the apianas are blooming for the first time--that's just unreal.

westelle, thanks so much for your recommendations, are any of them particularly aromatic?

Matt
CA Kate z9
13 years ago
I don't really grow them for the smell, but do find clevelandii, apiana and one called Starlight Sage (S. apiana & S.mellifera) to be appealing.
kelpmermaid
13 years ago
ccroulet, which hybrid do you think it is? I saw something in the Manhattan Beach Botanical Garden in bloom, and it had amazingly dark blue huge flowers on it, like that one, but screens do lie. They thought it was a Winifred Gilman. It was definitely darker than my Clevelandii, now in bloom.
ccroulet
13 years ago
I don't know which it is. To be honest, "Allen Chickering" and "Pozo Blue" look the same to me. Maybe someone can show me the difference. There are other hybrids, of course, but these are common. "Pozo Blue" is a Las Pilitas specialty. "Pozo" is a small place on the map near Las Pilitas's Santa Margarita campus. "Winnifred Gilman," an authentic S. clevelandii, does have dark blue flowers. Some wild plants have the same deep color, and in fact I've grown some from cuttings, and they are in the ground now. The hybrids typically have lighter blue flowers (or is it purple; I'm color blind & can't tell) and they tend to have the multiple heads on one stem. They get that from their S. leucophylla ancestor. They also start flowering later than S. leucophylla but earlier than S. clevelandii. Real S. clevelandii more often have only one flowering head on a stem. I posted photos of real S. clevelandii as seen in nature on the "Salvia clevelandii in California" thread that I created here a year ago. Last year I found an interesting S. clevelandii x S. apiana hybrid near Escondido. This is a recognized natural hybrid called Salvia x palmeri. These two species bloom at the same time, so I'm not surprised that they have natural hybrids. I'm more surprised by S. mellifera x S. apiana hybrids, which are rather frequent where these two species occur together, since S. mellifera are usually finished flowering well before S. apiana start.
CA Kate z9
13 years ago
The "Starflower" hybrid was purchased from Cal-flora so I'm fairly certain it is what they say. Their stock and tagging have always been reliable.
ccroulet
13 years ago
"Starflower" or "Starlight" (your earlier post)? I don't question its ID. It's the alleged "Salvia clevelandii" sold by some nurseries that I doubt. For example, last year I met (several times) a San Diego Co. grower of native plants who was selling Clevelands that were clearly hybrids. He told me he got his original cutting from Tree of Life. But when I visited TofL, the plants they were calling "Salvia clevelandii" were authentic. They had straight species, "Winnifred Gilman" (also species) and hybrids -- "Allen Chickering" and "Aromas," IIRC. Interestingly, natural populations of S. clevelandii are close to the grower's nursery, one within a mile (but a much longer drive). He was unaware of them and had never seen the plant in nature.
ccroulet
13 years ago
I'm going to reverse field on something I said earlier. Looking at my Clevelands, I see that about half of the flowering stalks have one flowering head ("glomerule"), and the other half have two closely-spaced heads.
v1rt
12 years ago
hi mohavemaria,

What salvia is the one with pink flowers?

{{gwi:10327}}
rich_dufresne
12 years ago
I think that plant in the center with the copious pink spikes might be a Penstemon, not a Salvia
dicot
12 years ago
In my experience, S. Clevelandii is more likely to live longer when pruned by about a third after its blooms are spent, but before the rains come.

Salvia clevelandii

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