Salvia clevelandii

14 years ago

Hello!

I planted a number of salvia clevelandii on the slope behind my house, and they seemed happy for 2-3 years. Didn't mind being on a steep, dry, rocky slope, and the deer left them alone.

Suddenly, this spring, the leaves on two of them turned bright red, over the course of several weeks, and then the plants dried up and died.

Is s. clevelandii just short-lived, or do you think something else caused this? I'd happily go plant more, but not if I have to replace them every couple of years, because it's kind of a pain to get down there.

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Comments (20)

hybridsage
14 years ago
mlevie:
From some of the post I understand that S.clevelandii
is short lived. Westele maybe able to help who
is in the same Zone as you. I don't know if your on
the coastal area or desert side of the mountains.Rich
is also very well versed so I will let them answer your Question.
Art
CA Kate z9
14 years ago
Yes, S. clevelandii are short lived... about 5 years in ideal conditions.
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desertsage: I haven't visited any wild clevelands since June, but my own clevelands never have a second bloom. Summer watering prolongs the blooming season a bit, but they don't bloom for a second time. S. clevelandii, like others of the Audibertia group, lives a cycle. Flowering is the climax of the wet/cool-season part of their annual cycle. As the flowers mature, the plants start to grow their smaller dry-season leaves. I'd think it would be difficult for them, physiologically, to reverse field and bloom a second time. Even a summer thunderstorm (we had one in July) would be insufficient to alter the cycle. As an additional point of interest, I have a cleveland that I bought from a commercial nursery and that appears to have a lot of S. leucophylla in it. It's entire bloom, which occurs in late May, takes about 10 days. If you don't pay attention, you can miss it. The clevelands that I grew from seed and cuttings flower later but much longer.
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Image by: Clare_CAMichelia Figo var. SkinnerianaWhich Shrubs Smell Good? - Fragrant Plants The following list of fragrant plants was compiled by Clare_CA. Please note, this list is considered a work in progress with additional fragrant plants added over time. Plant Name Abelia mosanensis ‘bridal bouquet,’ fragrant abelia Abelia trilora Acidanthera, 'Peacock orchid' Agastache ‘Summer Breeze’ Agastache foeniculum Anise Hyssop Aglaia odorata Aloysia virgatas, Sweet Almond Azara microphylla Beaumontia grandiflora Blanc Double de Coubert rugosas Boronia Boronia megastigma Brassavola nodosa (Lady of the Night orchid) Brugmansia Brunfelsia americana Brunfelsia australis Brunfelsia Nitida (Lady of the Night) Brunfelsia pauciflora Buddleia Asiatica Calycanthus occidentalis, Spice Bush Cananga odorata Carolina allspice, Calycanthus sp. Centaurea moschata Sweet Sultan (Annual) Cestrum diurnum Cestrum nocturum Chimonanthus praecox Chlidanthus fragrans Perfumed Fairy Lily (Bulb) Choisya ‘Aztec Pearl,’ Aztec Pearl Mexican Orange Choysia ternata, Mexican Mock Orange Cimicifuga 'Hillside Black Beauty' Citrus (esp. ‘Bouquet de Fleurs’) Citrus (tree) Clematis Montana Clematis, Sweet Autumn Clematis Clerodendron phillipinum Clerodendrum trichotomum Clethra alnifolia Clethra 'Ruby Spice' Coleonema pulchrum/Breath of Heaven Crinum odorata Crinum powellii and C. moorei Daphne bholua Daphne 'Carol Mackie' Daphne odora Datura Inoxia Datura Metel Datura Stramonium var Tatula Datura wrightii Dianthus ‘Bath’s Pink’ Diplarrhena moraea ‘Slieve Donard,’ White Flag Iris Dipogon lignosus Diurnum Double Delight - Hybrid Tea Rose Dracaena fragans Eriodictyon capitatum Lompoc Yerba Santa Erysimum cheiri, Wallflower (Annual) Eupatorium ligustrinum Euphorbia leucocephala Freesia (Bulb) Gardenia angusta Gardenia 'White Gem' Gladiolus callianthus Abyssinian Sword Lily (Bulb) Gladiolus tristis Marsh Afrikaner (Bulb) Hansa - Rugosa Rose Hedychium coronaria, common white ginger Hedychium coronarium Hedychium flavescens/gardnerianum/flavum/coronarium Hedychium gardnerianum is an outstanding ginger lily. Hedysarum coronarium French Honeysuckle Helichrysum (Licorice plant) Hemerocallis ‘Fragrant Treasure,’ Frangrant Treasure Daylily Hemerocallis ‘Hyperion,’ Hyperion Daylily Hemerocallis ‘Sherwood Gladiator,’ Sweet Gladiator Daylily Hemerocallis citrina, Lemon Daylily Hemerocallis lilioasphodelus, Lemon Lily Hemerocallis minor, Dwarf Daylily Holarrhena densiflora (Jasmine Tree) Hoya lacunosa Hyacinths, Nicotiana, oriental lilies, and easter lilies Hymenocallis ‘Erotica’ Fragrant Basket Lily (Bulb) Hymenocallis ‘Sulphur Queen’ Sulphur Queen B. 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Clarke’ (tree) Magnolia seiboldii, Oyama Magnolia Magnolia stellata, Star Magnolia Magnolia Virginiana Magnolia x loebneri ‘Ballerina’ (tree) Magnolia x loebneri ‘Spring Snow’ (tree) Magnolia x stellata ‘Royal Star’ (tree) Magnolia x stellata ‘Waterlily’ (tree) Magnolia x wieseneri Mandevilla laxa Matthiola incana, Stock (Annual) Matthiola longipetala bicornis, Evening-scented Stock (Annual) Melanoselinum decipiens Michelia champaca Michelia chapensis Michelia doltsopa Michelia figo, Banana Shrub Michelia Wilsonii (sinensis) Michelia x alba Michelia x foggii ‘Jack Fogg’ (tree) Milletia reticulata Mirabilis, Four o'clocks Mitriostigma Axillare or African Gardenia Montanoa grandiflora, Narcissus jonquilla ‘Kinglet’, ‘Sweetness’, ‘Vireo’Jonquil (Bulb) Narcissus papyraceus, Paper Whites (Bulb) Narcissus tazetta, Narcissus (Bulb) Narcissus x odorus, Campernelle Jonquil (Bulb) Nicotiana alata Nicotiana sylvestris Orchid Vanda merillii Osmanthus fragrans, Sweet Olive Passiflora Alata “Ruby Glow” Passiflora belotti Passiflora colinvauxii (honeysuckle fragrance) Passiflora helleri Passiflora Incense Passiflora serratodigitata Passiflora sprucei Pelargonium , Scented Geraniums (all*) -- Pelargonium ‘Filicifolium’ Balsam Pelargonium ‘Tutti-Fruiti’ Tutti-Fruiti Pelargonium capitatum ‘Attar of Roses’ Old Rose Pelargonium crispum ‘Peach Cream’ Peach Pelargonium crispum ‘Prince of Orange’ Orange Pelargonium crispum Lemon Pelargonium graveolens ‘Rober’s Lemon Rose’ Lemon-rose Pelargonium graveolens Rose Pelargonium grossularioides Coconut Pelargonium nervosum ‘Torento’ Ginger Pelargonium nervosum Lime Pelargonium odoratissimum, Apple Pelargonium quercifolium, Pelargonium Almond Pelargonium scabrum ‘M. 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Noisette; softest yellow) Rose, Mirandy (HT; garnet red) Rose, Mister Lincoln (HT; dark red) Rose, Nuage Parfumé (HT; also cl.; coral-orange-red blend) Rose, Oklahoma (HT; deep red) Rose, Papa Meilland (HT; deep crimson) Rose, Perfume Delight (HT; medium pink) Rose, Rosa gallica officinalis/duplex Rose, Rosa gallica versicolor (Gallica; striped pink) Rose, Rosa x damascena bifera (Damask, Rose of Castile; m. pink) Rose, Royal Amethyst (HT; lavender) Rose, Saratoga (floribunda; white) Rose, Sheer Bliss (HT; white/pink blend) Rose, Simplicity (floribunda; light pink) Rose, Spanish Sun (floribunda; deep yellow) Rose, Spartan (floribunda; orange-red blend) Rose, Sunsprite (floribunda; deep yellow) Rose, Sutter’s Gold (HT; orange blend) Rose, Sweet Surrender (HT; silvery med. pink) Rose, Tiffany (HT; pink blend) Rose, White Lightnin’ (GR; white) Rose, Wild Spice (shrub) Rosmarinus officinalis Salvia clevelandii Salvia clevelandii 'Aromas' Salvia clevelandii/Cleveland Sage Salvia elegans, Pineapple Sage Salvia melissodora Grape-scented Sage Sarcococca Hookeriana Humilis Sarcococca rustifolia Scentimental, Hybrid Tea Solandra maxima Sombreuil climbing antique Stephanotis floribunda Sweet Afton Sweet Chariot - miniature "hanging basket" rose Syringa microphylla 'Superba' Tagetes nelsonii, Citrus Marigold Telosma cordata, Pakalana Vine Thornless Honey Locust-Gleditsia triacanthos f. inermis Tilia cordata, Little Leaf Linden Trachelospermum jasminoides, Star Jasmine Ugni molinae, Chilean Guava Umbellularia californica California Bay Laurel (tree) Verbena x hybrida ‘Defiance,’ Defiance Verbena Viburnum carlesi 'Compactum' Viburnum Carlesii (clove scent) Viburnum, Korean Spice Viola Odora Weigela florida 'Variegata nana' Wild clover, Melilotus alba Wintersweet, Chimonanthus praecox Wisteria
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User
Original Author
14 years ago
Thank you Art and westelle!

So a follow-up question....can anyone suggest sages that might last a little longer? We're near the coast but the site is very sage-friendly, I'm also growing s. apiana and artemisia tridentata down there and everybody seems happy.

In particular I love s. clevelandii for the fragrance, I can smell it fifty feet away!
rich_dufresne
14 years ago
The persons who can best answer these questions are:

Bert Wilson of Las Pilitas Nursery:
http://www.laspilitas.com/

Bart O'Brien of Rancho Santa Ana Botanic Garden:
http://www.rsabg.org/

and one of our posters, ccroulet

I would make note of the soil type, its depth, the amount of moisture it gets and can hold, the direction of the slope, and where prevailing winds come from.
ccroulet
14 years ago
This is a very interesting topic to me. I've propagated my own S. clevelandii from wild cuttings and seed, in addition to growing a couple of Winnies that I bought at Las Pilitas. I've also propagated S. apiana, S. mellifera and S. eremostachya, and, for the first two species, I have plants in the ground. But I haven't been doing it long enough to find out how long they last. Be aware that many plants sold in the trade as S. clevelandii are really hybrids with S. leucophylla. I mean plants other than "Allen Chickering" and "Pozo Blue," which are acknowledged hybrids. Most growers have never seen S. clevelandii in nature, and they don't know what it really looks like. "Winnifred Gilman" is authentic S. clevelandii, however.
User
Original Author
14 years ago
I'm sure that the specimens I planted were grown by Annie's Annuals in Richmond, and on their web page they say that what they sell are Winnifred Gilman seedlings (see link).

They didn't all die this year, but the larger ones did. I suspect westelle is right that clevelandii is just not very long-lived.

I'm not restricting myself to native sages for this site--but it's very steep (maybe 45 degrees) and covered in poison oak, so I can't replace plants every couple of years and I can't coddle anything I plant. It'll get occasional water for the first summer, and then it's on its own.

Here's as much cultural information as I can give you, I'd love to hear your suggestions!

-we are about two miles from the coast just south of San Francisco. However, we are in a very sunny microclimate, we get very little fog during the day, and the slope faces south.

-precipitation is on the high end for the Bay Area, maybe 29 inches a year. The soil is very rocky and drainage is excellent, although I have found it to be somewhat variable from location to location on the slope.

-winds in the winter can be fierce. I've never measured them but they have been known to toss a wooden bench across our side yard.

Thank you for your help, and if I've forgotten any information you need, please let me know!

Here is a link that might be useful: Annie's Annuals link
ccroulet
14 years ago
That's a lot of rain for S. clevelandii, but they may get something close to that naturally in some of the highest parts of their range (Inaja, Palomar Divide). Your soil sounds OK. In nature, they grow in gravel or what amounts to highly-fractured rock. Winter winds as you've described them should not be an issue.
CA Kate z9
14 years ago
If annie's things grow good for you I can give you a list of all the Salvias that I got at Annie's that have died from our heat. But here are the ones I bought at Bay area and Santa Rosa area nurseries... they all struggle here so should do great for you.

Apiana from Cal-flora
Bucchannii from Cottage Gardens
Salvia fbuholwayiorskaohlei (ForsskalÂs Sage ) -- Berkley
Salvia greggii ÂTeresaÂ -- Emerisa Nursery
Salvia iodantha -- Cal-flora
Salvia leucantha "Midnight" X S.elegans = ÂAnthony ParkerÂ -- Cal-flora
Salvia leucophylla Â FigueroaÂ -- Cal-flora
Salvia lyrata "Burgundy Bliss" -- Orchard
Salvia mexicana ÂLimelightÂ -- Cottage Gardens
Salvia mexicana x hispanica ÂByron FlintÂ -- Cal-flora
Salvia muelleri -- Cottage Gardens
Salvia sagittata *** "Ecuador"-- Boething Nursery
SALVIA pratensis "Rose Rapsody"
SALVIA nemorosa "Caradonna"
SALVIA nemorosa "May Night" (x sylvestris)
SALVIA x sylvestris "Blauhugel" (nemorosa)
SALVIA gesneraeflora "Tequila Sunrise"
SALVIA coccinea "Forest Fire"
mohavemaria
14 years ago
{{gwi:10327}}
Our S. clevlandii is the big blue flowered plant on the left of the pic. It is 6-7 years old and perfectly healthy. It is big and I have to do some serious pruning on it after its flower bracts turn brown or it would be huge. I try to keep it no more than six feet across when in bloom and four feet when I prune it.

This is not particularly short lived to me and our conditions are certainly not ideal for any living thing with 112 degree weeks in the summer and 10 percent humidity with hair dryer winds but this salvia handles it with grace.

And you are right about the smell, it is heavenly.

Maria
ccroulet
14 years ago
Just from what I can see in the photo, your "Salvia clevelandii" is probably a hybrid. But, I agree, it's spectacular.
User
Original Author
14 years ago
Well, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that I get too much rain and too little heat for s. clevelandii and that's why it kicked the bucket so soon...my consolation is that the apianas are blooming for the first time--that's just unreal.

westelle, thanks so much for your recommendations, are any of them particularly aromatic?

Matt
CA Kate z9
14 years ago
I don't really grow them for the smell, but do find clevelandii, apiana and one called Starlight Sage (S. apiana & S.mellifera) to be appealing.
kelpmermaid
14 years ago
ccroulet, which hybrid do you think it is? I saw something in the Manhattan Beach Botanical Garden in bloom, and it had amazingly dark blue huge flowers on it, like that one, but screens do lie. They thought it was a Winifred Gilman. It was definitely darker than my Clevelandii, now in bloom.
ccroulet
14 years ago
I don't know which it is. To be honest, "Allen Chickering" and "Pozo Blue" look the same to me. Maybe someone can show me the difference. There are other hybrids, of course, but these are common. "Pozo Blue" is a Las Pilitas specialty. "Pozo" is a small place on the map near Las Pilitas's Santa Margarita campus. "Winnifred Gilman," an authentic S. clevelandii, does have dark blue flowers. Some wild plants have the same deep color, and in fact I've grown some from cuttings, and they are in the ground now. The hybrids typically have lighter blue flowers (or is it purple; I'm color blind & can't tell) and they tend to have the multiple heads on one stem. They get that from their S. leucophylla ancestor. They also start flowering later than S. leucophylla but earlier than S. clevelandii. Real S. clevelandii more often have only one flowering head on a stem. I posted photos of real S. clevelandii as seen in nature on the "Salvia clevelandii in California" thread that I created here a year ago. Last year I found an interesting S. clevelandii x S. apiana hybrid near Escondido. This is a recognized natural hybrid called Salvia x palmeri. These two species bloom at the same time, so I'm not surprised that they have natural hybrids. I'm more surprised by S. mellifera x S. apiana hybrids, which are rather frequent where these two species occur together, since S. mellifera are usually finished flowering well before S. apiana start.
CA Kate z9
14 years ago
The "Starflower" hybrid was purchased from Cal-flora so I'm fairly certain it is what they say. Their stock and tagging have always been reliable.
ccroulet
14 years ago
"Starflower" or "Starlight" (your earlier post)? I don't question its ID. It's the alleged "Salvia clevelandii" sold by some nurseries that I doubt. For example, last year I met (several times) a San Diego Co. grower of native plants who was selling Clevelands that were clearly hybrids. He told me he got his original cutting from Tree of Life. But when I visited TofL, the plants they were calling "Salvia clevelandii" were authentic. They had straight species, "Winnifred Gilman" (also species) and hybrids -- "Allen Chickering" and "Aromas," IIRC. Interestingly, natural populations of S. clevelandii are close to the grower's nursery, one within a mile (but a much longer drive). He was unaware of them and had never seen the plant in nature.
ccroulet
14 years ago
I'm going to reverse field on something I said earlier. Looking at my Clevelands, I see that about half of the flowering stalks have one flowering head ("glomerule"), and the other half have two closely-spaced heads.
v1rt
13 years ago
hi mohavemaria,

What salvia is the one with pink flowers?

{{gwi:10327}}
rich_dufresne
13 years ago
I think that plant in the center with the copious pink spikes might be a Penstemon, not a Salvia
dicot
13 years ago
In my experience, S. Clevelandii is more likely to live longer when pruned by about a third after its blooms are spent, but before the rains come.

Salvia clevelandii

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