Here is my revised list: Revised 'Old Garden Roses' for Small Gardens Dream List (08/21/2013) 1. Autumn Damask (Damask ancient) (gets big but I like it. I have to figure how to use it. I like this rose because of its rose history) 2. Boule de Neige (Bourbon, 1867) 3. Honoraine de Brabant (Bourbon, age unknown) (gets big but I like it. I have to figure how to use it) 4. Maggie (Bourbon found 1980) 5. Souvenir de la Malmaison (Bourbon introduced 1843) 6. Madame Cornelissen (Bourbon introduced 1860 to 1869) (Thank you Ingrid_vc for the suggestion) 7. Beauty of Rosemawr (Tea, 1903) 8. Westside Road Cream Tea (Thank you Luxrosa for the suggestion) 9. Captain Harry Stebbins (Hybrid Tea discovered 1980) 10. Devoniensis (Tea, Foster 1838) (Thank you Ingrid_vc) 11. Francis Dubreuil (Tea 1984) 12. Comtesse du Cayla (China 1902) 13. Fabvier (Hybrid China before 1929) (Thank you Luxrosa for the suggestion) (does it have a fragrance?) 14. Green Rose (China prior to 1845) (I like this humble rose) 15. Old Blush (China Hybrid, 1852) (I like this rose because of its rose history) 16. Fritz Nobis (Floribunda, Shrub 1940) (not a OGR; gets big but I like it. I have to figure how to use it) 17. La France (Hybrid Tea 1867) 18. The Doctor (Tea Hybrid, 1936) 19. Marchesa Bocella (Hybrid Perpetual, 1842) 20. Barbara's Pasture Rose (Hybrid Perpetual, found rose) (Thank you Rosefolly) 21. Enfant de France (Hybrid Perpetual, 1860) 22. Duke of Edinburgh (Hybrid Perpetual, 1860 to 1869) 23. La Reine (Hybrid Perpetual, 1842)

Hi Skrip, We had an 'Indigo Spires' that I finally had to take out when its span reached 9 feet wide. :-) But you can keep it MUCH narrower by cutting out a lot of the side branches. That's what my parents' neighbors do.... they have a fairly sparse one in a narrow spot in front of their house, always blooming and never too big. I think they must cut it often. If you don't want to have to cut it a lot, I'd allow at least 5-6 feet. We have a large S. chiapensis in our front yard, at least 5 feet wide, maybe 4 feet tall. Now, if I had had a chance to cut it down in late winter, it may never get that big. If you cut it down every year it would probably get to 3x3. This one is very happy in dappled shade, especially where it gets watering from lawn sprinklers. It likes "cloud forest" conditions. Our neighbor has a grouping of 3 'Hot Lips' and I'd say each one reaches at least 4' wide. You know, here in our zone, we have to allow a much bigger span and height then elsewhere because our growing season is so much longer. Oh, and we also have pineapple sage (S. elegans). Do you mean the dwarf ('Honey Melon'), or the species which is bigger? We have both. The big one gets about 5 feet tall x 4 feet wide and grows in quite a bit of shade, mostly dappled, and blooms quite well there. I'm thinking of putting a cutting on the north side of the house and to see how it does there too. It can take more sun. The dwarf plant is a low-growing/spreading ground cover that reached about 5 feet wide before I took it out and put it in a pot. I've had fun experimenting with the Salvias in different parts of the yard because they root so easily from just a cutting stuck in the ground. A few years ago I stuck a cutting of Salvia regla on the north side of the house. It took off and has profusely bloomed for two years. It's about 7 feet tall now. Also stuck a cutting of S. greggii on the north side last year, in a spot a little shadier than where S. regla is, and wetter because it gets less sun. It bloomed last year, it survived a VERY wet winter in heavy wet clay in the shade, and now it has buds!!! At most it will get a few hours of morning sun in the summer. Jen

desertsage: I haven't visited any wild clevelands since June, but my own clevelands never have a second bloom. Summer watering prolongs the blooming season a bit, but they don't bloom for a second time. S. clevelandii, like others of the Audibertia group, lives a cycle. Flowering is the climax of the wet/cool-season part of their annual cycle. As the flowers mature, the plants start to grow their smaller dry-season leaves. I'd think it would be difficult for them, physiologically, to reverse field and bloom a second time. Even a summer thunderstorm (we had one in July) would be insufficient to alter the cycle. As an additional point of interest, I have a cleveland that I bought from a commercial nursery and that appears to have a lot of S. leucophylla in it. It's entire bloom, which occurs in late May, takes about 10 days. If you don't pay attention, you can miss it. The clevelands that I grew from seed and cuttings flower later but much longer.

Oooh,,,I LOVE these and have been looking up the best one for my area, Laguna Niguel. What is better, a hybrid or the straight species? I was about to hunt them down for ordering as I had both of these on my list but now, don't know which one to get. Will check back on this to see what happens.