Thanks for the link. Ok so the F1 generation is 100% hybrid and 1 out of 4 of the F2 generation reverts back to the characteristics of the F0 generation? In the comming gerations are the offspring either Hybrid (the same as F1 generation), the same as F0 gereneation, OR do they vary and have some characteristics of both and keep changing? (to rephrase, are there only 3 outcomes; parant A, B, or hybrid C; or could there be several diffent outcomes that are different than the parents) This totally depends on the genetics of the original F0 pair. Dominance/recessivity of the genes that they pass along AND in what combination the F1 generation inherit will determine which characteristics get displayed. I'm not sure how it works between different species (especially with fecundity and whatnot), but if you're hybridizing different cultivars in the same species then things should work mostly by Mendelian rules. The probability that you will end up with F2 and beyond exactly like the F0 or F1 is fairly low, especially if the F0 are very different from one another. There is a point where gene combinations tend to plateau and stabilize, but this takes many generations. The short answer is that depending on the cards that are dealt out, the F2 and beyond can either begin to look like the F0, they can look like the F1, or they can make something totally different. As shelbyguy pointed out, you need to breed on a fairly large scale in order to isolate any traits-- and I am talking about on the order of hundreds to thousands of plants. If you're just doing this for fun with a handful of plants, then expect surprises to pop up along the way, but don't expect to be able to consistently produce identical or even similar plants every generation. Of course peppers are very complex, but let's look at one hypothetical gene that has only two alleles for say, pod size, with large being dominant (P) and small being recessive (p). If you cross a plant with large pods with a plant with small pods, you have two possible genotypes for the parents: PP x pp (both homozygous) Pp x pp (one heterozygous for large pods, the other is homozygous) So already you have two paths that your whole F1 brood can take. Let's look at the first one and see where this takes us. PP x pp = 100% Pp offspring This means that all F1 will have Pp and thus will all have large pods. If we cross the F1, we will get this: Pp x Pp = 25% PP; 50% Pp; 25% pp So 75% of your F2 will have large peppers and 25% will have small ones. To further complicate things, we can cross the F2 and get these: PP x PP = 100% PP PP x Pp = 50% PP; 50% Pp Pp x Pp = 25% PP; 50% Pp; 25% pp Pp x pp = 50% Pp; 50% pp pp x pp = 100% pp Do the math and you have quite a bit of variety amongst your new peppers. Taking a step back, if you backcross the F1 with the F0 parents, you get this: Pp x PP = 50% PP; 50% Pp = 100% large pods Pp x pp = 50% Pp; 50% pp = 50% large, 50% small Let's go back to the second F0 scenario. Pp x pp = 50% Pp; 50% pp = 50% large, 50% small So already the F1 has variety. You have three possible crosses when making the F2: Pp x Pp = 25% PP; 50% Pp; 25% pp Pp x pp = 50% Pp; 50% pp pp x pp = 100% pp And this is just one hypothetical gene with two alleles following simple dominant/recessive rules. There are numerous genes that control size, shape, color, seed number, leaf formation, capsacin content, and there are probably many that have multiple alleles and incomplete/codominance. And then there are genes that work together and affect each other, totally messing up basic Mendelian probabilities. The more you increase the number of genes that you are looking at, you increase the amount of possibilities by orders of magnitude. I'm sure that this didn't exactly answer your question, but I hope that the short 1-gene example helped a little bit? I could make up some 2 or more gene examples to show you how incredibly complex the ratios get when you add more genes in, and how much variation you can get just from two plants.

I'm not sure how people feel about linking other forums... But I have found an awesome thread RE making your own, or even improving your own soil... I do 2 parts peat (10$/3cu f), 2 parts composted black cow (~1$/40lbs), 1 part coarse vermiculite (10$/3cu), and 1 part of dirt from my yard. 2) if you are looking for seedlings, Cross Country Nursery has about 400 varieties and a fantastic reputation. When being shipped a plant, expect it to arrive in less than optimal condition, and plan to get it planted the day they arrive as well... Never the less, it will expand the possibilities over your local big box. I am not a fan of Monsanto (and GMO for that matter), and so many of the brands at your local Home Depot, or whatever are subsidiaries or clients of Monsanto subsidiaries. Which means if they ever found out you saved seed from one of their plants you'll likely be sued (if you can even get them to grow). If you are looking to grow from seed, Pepper Joe's, the hippy seed co (in australia), midwestchiliheads, and pepperlover are all good sources. Pepper Joe has a fantastic return policy... If you buy seeds, and you are not happy with germ rates, or whatever, you send him an email, and he sends you a new package of seed, and usually with a few bonus varieties thrown in. 3) all depends on your threshold for pain... If you like habaneros, Might I suggest Scotch Bonnets? They have a nice smokey flavor. A bit milder would be Aji's, I've had some yellow Aji in Peru, and it was fantastic. Cumari Pollux is reputed to taste like fruit loops with a bang. If you like stuffing peppers, Pablano's are hard to beat. If you are into the varieties that will cause your face to melt off, check out 7pot Douglah (indian for cross, and is kind of a crass impolite term from what I gather),Moruga Scorpion (but don't buy from Jim Duffy of Refining Fire Chilies... He's asking ~3$ per seed...), Trinidad Scorpion Butch T strain is the current Guinesss world record holder (though it is surpassed by both Douglah, and possibly by Moruga). There are scores of amish varieties, new mexican varieties, sweets, hots, and superhots. It all depends on what you like. 4) no idea... Not familiar with your climate or zone :). Here in Fl, I have about 200 plants in the ground, with the goal of having 400 plants of over 100 varieties. 5) I have heard that composted alfalfa is fantastic for your pepper plants, some even co-grow it beneath the peppers. I have no personal experience with it though. I guess it would depend on whether you are buying a bale of alfalfa hay, and spreading it (less good, the process of breaking it down could deplete your garden of Nitrogen, plus the extra weeding that would come with this), or if its something else. For my garden, I use bone meal, blood meal, and fish emulsions. The fish smells terrible. But its weak, and if you are applying it to seedlings that is important. I'm not familiar with round up - other than its reputation for killing mostly everything its sprayed on. Here is a link that might be useful: best soil thread ever.

I just planted 28 styrofoam cups of peppers via the wintersowing method and, since I had space and cups available, I included some Mexibell seeds I'd saved before discovering that Mexibell is a hybrid. I figured that the worst that could happen would be that I'd get some peppers of unknown shape, color, and heat level -- which is what I've gotten from the mislabeled Bonnie plants the last couple years anyway. :-D Has anyone here grown Mexibell F2's? It would be nice to have some idea what I might expect. Not necessary, but nice.

First, I tried to answer the question about the definition of OP using the same genetic terms that pennyrile used. So that's an attempt to defione an OP based on genetic issues alone. What Trudi posted is a definition based more on a functional basis. Here's what Trudi quoted from her source: (In addition to their long history of use, the heirloom vegetables that are routinely grown from seed are open-pollinated, meaning that they set seed "naturally," often aided by wind, rain, or pollinating insects, and can thus be renewed by sowing the seeds harvested from each generation of plants. Known also as standard or non-hybrid, open-pollinated varieties tend to be stable and true-breeding. They differ from F1 hybrids, which in usual practice result from deliberate crossing of two distinct, highly inbred parent lines. (The term "F1" to describe the hybrid offspring indicates the "first filial" generation, with respect to the parent lines.)) Trudi, I know that definition well and used to use it when asked, but a couple of things about it started bothering me. (are open-pollinated, meaning that they set seed "naturally," often aided by wind, rain, or pollinating insects, and can thus be renewed by sowing the seeds harvested from each generation of plants. Known also as standard or non-hybrid, open-pollinated varieties tend to be stable and true-breeding.) Possible Problem #1; if cross pollinated by pollinating insects a variety is no longer genetically stable, as in true brreding. Possible Problem #2; nothing was said about spontaneous mutations which can also alter varieties. Possible Problem #3. What about all the varieties that were bred by individuals and done so deliberately? Would then one still consider all of TOm Wagner's varieties such as Green Zebra, Green Grape, Elberta Girl and on and on, as OP's b'c they didn't come about via natural means? Same comment for all of the ones bred by joe Bratka such as Snow White, Super Snow White, Ghost, Rabbit, Marizol Purple, aka Marizol Bratka, and all the Sara thises and that's that he bred. Since they were bred are they to be considered OP? s And what about all the ones bred by Joe's father, such as Box Car Willie, Mule Team, Red Barn, Great Divide and Pasture. Are they OP's using the "natural" definition? And there are more examples. ( They differ from F1 hybrids, which in usual practice result from deliberate crossing of two distinct, highly inbred parent lines. (The term "F1" to describe the hybrid offspring indicates the "first filial" generation, with respect to the parent lines.)) The purpose here is to produce F1 seed for sale whereas the deliberate crosses made by Tom Wagner, Joe Bratka, his father, Tad Smith and others is not to produce F1 seed, rather, to dehybridize the F1's that they create to develop OP's from selections at the F2, F3, level, for instance. I guess what I'm saying is that I've know that functional definition of OP for a long time and that goes back to the late 80's. But in more recent years we do have lots of folks making their own crosses, so it seems maybe a bit problematic now to say that an OP can only arise by natural means, forgetting the comment about X pollination by insects. Just something to think about. Carolyn