The Washington DC area is a zone 7- with the city itself now nearly a zone 8-

I agree that DC is milder in the winter then CT- for absolute lows and especially for duration of cold.

From the link I provided above re; 'Union Of Concerned scientists'- from 2010 and after- the central Connecticut climate will become more like central New Jersey's- and by centuries in will be like that of Savannah Georgia!

Migrating climates due to climate change notwithstanding- growing any Trachycarpus in CT currently-except perhaps right along the shore line is a challenge.

In 20 years perhaps it will be easier- but for now winter protection is really going to be needed.

Mark, I dont' want to discourage you from experimenting with your palms--quite the opposite I think it's great that people are doing things like this. I just want you to make sure you're being realistic about it! I have somewhat the same attitude, I'm not protecting except for LOTS of mulch but my climate is very different from yours. I think you're engaging in a little bit of wishful thinking with respect to your winter lows--I have to stress again that the last 2 or 3 winters have NOT been representative of what we can expect in the northeastern United States, and no, surviving -8 does not mean that they will survive -9 or -10.

Ground freezing is certainly deadly, but below a certain temperature the cells of the leaves suffer irreversible damage, and if the meristem (growing point) is destroyed, the palm will be dead whether the ground is frozen or not.

There's also a lot more to hardiness than temperature; hardiness is affected by the age, size, health, and degree of establishment of the plant, and duration of the cold. Especially in a marginal climate proper siting is absolutely critical--a sheltered microclimate or spot next to a house can be several degrees warmer than the "official" low temperature would suggest. Washington, DC is considered zone 7 but my property has a cold microclimate within the urban heat island as I am some distance from downtown and my property is on a north-facing hillside. Winter lows in my backyard can be anywhere from 1-5 degrees lower than the "official" low at Reagan National Airport (which is not even in DC, but is across the Potomac River in Virginia!).

Finally, this species has been available for decades so I have to ask, if it's "fully hardy in zone 6A" then where are they all? If that's true then they should certainly be hardy here in Washington, DC but I don't know of a single one anywhere that's more than a few years old.

Over at Dave's Garden
http://davesgarden.com/forums/f/palms/all/
scroll down the palm pictures- some really cool trachycarpus fortunei and Waggie covered with snow in Vancouver BC z8- in the current cold snap.

Dear Markywonder, and other palmophiles,
Something NOT mentioned in this thread as far as I remember is that you, Markywonder, may have a genetically hardier palm than typical. Also, not clearly developed is the possibility of a severe freeze in which it is 40 degrees with rain, and snowing five or ten minutes later with temps in the 20's! This happened to me in zone 7b. I lost two T. fortunei plants after two winters with severe, sudden freezeups after rain. The plants were killed from crown freezing, NOT ground freezing. It does sound like the waggie may be more likely to survive this type of weather. I AM going to try this palm!

I want ask about mulching my windmill palms this winter, do you hold the mulch off of the lower trunk or do you mulch tight and if it is tight to the trunk will the trunk have trouble with rotting?

palmfan ,johnnieb & dragontek -
Thanks for the great responses. Palmfan, the seed stock for my waggies was imported from Japan. It may well be a very hardy type.

regards
Markywonder

markywonder, you " keep on keepin'on", as we used to say. there will always be negative comments and opinions. If we don't plant these palms, how are we ever going to know if we can grow them? I am putting mytwo gallon waggie in the ground this spring! One year ago, I didn't know I could grow banana plants, but now I can. Thats why we share good information, so we can learn.

Well ladies and guys

I covered my two trachies yesterday for good the Waggie and fortunei- I bought the greenhouses from 'Planthouse'

I am not heating them- they are in a great location- full south, pretty protected from wind. Their crowns will not receive any rain, ice or snow.

My other potted trachy fortunei, Takil and sabal(s) Louisiana and McCurtain will be brought in soon for the winter. The takil is small so perhaps tomorrow.

Weather turning colder tomorrow.

Looks like I will remove the covers in March- weather permitting.

Dear Markywonder,
What nursery did you buy your waggie from? Does yours look like the beauty that Liza Jaramillo has? I got one from CollectorPalms.com om Ebay. I sure hope I got the real deal, not a less hardy hybrid! They did send a decent plant for the money, though! They were VERY FAST in getting it out to me!
Sincerely,
Palmfan

palmfan,
I got some of my waggies from Oliver at Botanical Treasures in Florida. I don't believe they are still in business. However, you can give Steve a call at Botanics Wholesale Nursery (Florida) he has some nice 3-1/2 footers for $125, but he doesn't do mail order. Or try Gerry at Neotropic.com, he does mail order.
I saw the waggies from CollectorPalms.com they are the real thing. I wouldn't worry about it being a hybrid. All these professional palm growers in the U.S. get their waggie seeds from Tony at Rarepalmseeds.com in Germany.
regards
markywonder

I have had lots of problems with rare palm seed. There always screwing something up. I found another place that has a-1 service and never sells the wrongs seeds. ( well not yet ) They also sell japanese quality wagnerianus seeds said to be very hardy. They sell all kinds of palms seeds.
http://www.europalms.be/

Here is a link that might be useful: Euro palm seeds

Palmfan,
what size waggie did you get from collectorpalms? I've been looking for somewhere that sells sizeable waggies (bigger than 3 gallon) for a decent price. There's one on eBay for $285 plus $65 for S&H, but I didn't want to pay that much.
Thanks

BTW a discussion on the Hardy Palm & Subtropical discussion board just reminded me that a well-established and healthy T. wagnerianus was unable to survive the recent winters in Bowie, Maryland--a rather warm zone 6b just outside Washington, DC. The grower is the author of the hardiestpalms.com website and is by no means a rank amateur.

Here is a link that might be useful: Hardy palms discussion

Johnnieb,If we don't try them how will we ever know? It is kinder than all the palms that die at the hands of Loews, Home Depot and Wal Mart. At least they get care. I myself would protect them a bit, though.

Thanks for being a zone jumper ! I mean after all are we
just gonna let these tropical climates enjoy these palms ?
No way ! I say buy it and try it if it dies it dies but you don't know till you try ! I have several palms that i was told i could not grow , it is freezing down here and with the exception of 2 they have came through with flying colors. So go ahead and plant it for yourself if it makes you happy : ) (yes i am in zone denial )

I have a few small Waggies here in the NorthEastern tidewater area of Maryland ...... honestly, I have not given them much attention .... their about 10" tall .... maybe I should wrap some burlap around them, I do this to my takils which do very well here ... the Waggies seem to just do their own thing on the south side of my house with little to no damage .... mild winters here the last few, don't know what would happen if we actually had a real winter around here for once ....

Dear Palmpunk,
I got a heavy 3/5 gal pot size. The plant is said to be a two footer. I diod not measure mine, but i suppose it is close to two feet high. It only set me back $49 plus about $15 for Fedex shipping. I will NOT plant it out until spring. It is wintering on a cold back porch where temps reach near freezing during the winter. Collectorpalms.com is a good company for palm lovers!

Palmfan ......... ditto on Collectorpalms.com , Ryan is great to do business with, very heathy plants .... he has just about everything and if he does not, he can get it for you ... he is my palm / yucca pusher for sure

The Waggies in a DC garden for some reason look very small, take a lot of damage and have almost stunted growth compared to those growing in Zone 8. The owner has them in a somewhat shady spot so that isn't helping, but they are surviving. Inspite of this, I would keep trying, but with the understanding that they will likely perish in the years to come unless protected in Zone 6a. As they grow, how ever so slowly, the trunk will be more exposed to the cold and may be more vulnerable. Who knows, you may get a very hardy individual plant that may be the basis for offspring that will have some increased hardiness.

Virginian good words

unless global warming speeds up REAL Fast- my trachies here will die eventually. I have them in a fantastic location- and they are snug as bugs in a rug-completely covered in my great 'Flower house greenhouses' Very cold here this morning- 20 degrees with a stiff wind. The palms however do not feel the wind-

In the spring I am planting the sabal Louisiana and mccurtain.

I sometimes wonder as I look at the various "schemes" for protecting those more tender plants in marginal areas for their cold hardiness, I'm reminded looking out my front window at my Magnolia grandiflora, with its big evergreen leaves, now covered from bottome to top with a leaf mulch held in place by some old fencing, that various books etc. advised that in general , some evergreen plants do require having light all winter on those dormant leaves, or semidormant leaves, though I've found that it's the only way in our very cold winters some years, to keep my magnolia from freeaing to the ground. Since I'd guess those palms do go dormant in cold weather?, I'd guess they might be easily covered with some kind of light airy mulch, and that wouuld maybe eliminate any need for clear covers or the like, til weather warmed much in the spring?? Many years ago I saw a photo of palms in the Tokyo area , that were wrapped entirely to the crowns in something resembling a heavy thatch of some kind, though I can't recall if the crowns were tied up, and wrapped as well? Wish I could remember where I saw that photo, as I would love to take a closer look after the recent discussion on hardy palms. Of course in the case of the somewhat cold hardy Washingtonias, which don't get the old leaves removed in the wild by gardensers, it is said that the old skirt of dead leaves extending all the way to the ground in some cases protects the trunks from those infrequent hard freezes!! Maybe the wrapping and insulating technique is just another avenue of protection for cold hardy plams. that should be exlored more, though of course , it's not the most attractive approach, and I do miss seeing my very green magnolia leaves til the plants are uncovered once again in mid spring. I did find two years ago with a solid month of subfreezing weather and abnoramlly cold temperatures for that month , that my magnolia suffered nearly zero damage except on a few exposed leaves!!

Dragontek:

Heck, all it would take is a really cold blast from the arctic and Zone 7 and some Zone 8 palm growers may be digging out dead palms in the Spring some year......but, we should all keep trying. BTW, the upper teens and 20s should not harm your Trachycarpus Fortuneis, Waggies I'd keep an eye on. I haven't protected anything yet and our low was 25F last night. Tonight I may throw a blanket over the Sago palms in pots on my front step.

There's an excellent reason why my palms are small: I grew them from seed and they are still quite young. I have never made any exaggerated claims about my palms and have not made any attempt to "push" them with large amounts of fertilizer or otherwise pamper them but they just about doubled in size every growing season for their first three or four years, even without protection, even after having come through winters with single digit temperatures. In fact they have done so well that they are starting to crowed each other out. A couple of the waggies are getting shaded out by the T. fortunei next to them (which has grown phenomenally well) and will have to be moved next year. But overall they are healthy, put out good growth every year, and I'm quite happy with their progress; it's a mystery to me why anybody would call them "stunted". Anyway, the palms speak for themselves. View the slide show (see link) to see their progress over the last few years (hover your cursor pointer over the photos to see when each photo was taken). The first photo in the slideshow is how the palms looked just a few weeks ago, with the largest waggie in the lower left about 31 or 32 inches across:

Compare this to how they looked in June 2004, after a rather hard winter (note especially the T. fortunei that had just been planted, barely visible in the upper right of this photo):

Maybe we can see photos from a few other people who have grown their own palms from seed and/or have had them come through single digit temperatures without protection?

Here is a link that might be useful: Palm progress slideshow

BTW "The Virginian" seems to know an awful lot about my palms considering that he has never seen them except in the photos I have posted!

Virginian

its brutal here today- but will be above 50 by Sunday.
I do not think December can be a harbinger of what the rest of the winter brings- but my hunch? Go with the climate change crowd and plan on a milder then average winter.

Outcome? I plan to see those palms in the spring-not dead.

matkywonder, how did that waggie do this winter?

With spring finally here in Connecticut-

A final update on my trachycapuses; Wag and Fortunei

The Fortunei came through the winter with the least amount of damage. Some of its leaf tips where toasted- but the palm is growing again- and looks very good. Truthfully they seem out of place this far north- and in Connecticut- but damn the palm made it through with excellent results.

The Wagernianus was toasted a bit more- but its spear leaf made it through, and it also is showing strong growth.

I suppose I made a breakthrough on growing these palms in a zone 6 location. Perhaps the mild weather in November, December and half of January helped- but it was damn cold for the next two months. These palms are very tough indeed.

So I made a gardening bit of history I suppose- which means others should try-

I truly believe by 'hardening off' these plants for many years also helped in their robustness and ability to survive in this climate.

I also have a trachy Takil (still potted) Sabal Louisiana Sabal McCurtain and another Trachy Fortunei (all potted) on the south facing patio near the two planted palms.

All loving the 80 degree weather the last few days. My yucca a still look rather 'flattened' by the winter- but will come around-

hi dragontek, I am on the northern coast of mass. my needle palm looks great, my experimental trachy one gallon trachy got toasted but the base is still green. both were in leaf enclosures with a trassh barrel c0ver for cold or rainy nights. three fargesia bamboos wwere all top killed but the base is green. real tough end of winter for us. I wish markywonder would answer so i can see how his waggy is doing. he started this thread.

As an update on my own palms, once again I am impressed with how my waggies have come through another winter. We had a low of about 7 degrees in February, plus several in the teens. My beautiful T. fortunei "Taylor form" (seen in the photo above) fared very badly--the spear just pulled and the mature foliage is badly damaged. It has recovered from spear pull after both the previous winters, but has never looked this bad come spring.

The waggies, on the other hand, came through completely unscathed. Like the T. fortunei, they were protected by nothing more than a good mulch of leaves. The foliage suffered very little damage and not a single spear pulled. They are growing already, and the half-emerged spears that overwintered have already unfolded.

Johnnieb, always like good news from other zone pushers!

Hi,
I am planning to plant outside different frost hardy palms here in Finland. Somebody said "Them won't grow here...", so let's try. After Iceland the next is Finland :).

Just do it!

where is markywonder? we havn't heard from him in ages.

Well I got a couple waggies from Mark,last year,planted them last spring,uncovered them today completely and discovered fied leaves,it must have happened the night we went to o degrees,because I have been checking on them before that and they were all doing fine.My protection was a 35 gallon black plastic trash can,with a 8inch square cut out on top with a clear pvc panel for light to shine in on it.
No spear pulls on either waggie,so all looks good still.
But not so good for good for my Washys robusta and filferas,all of them had spear pulls,and are soft at the base except one robusta that had wood chips around the base of the palm.This has been the coldest and wettest,whether it be rain or snow,we've had in quite some years,even my tracy fort. haas it's leaves fried,and it was protected under a greenhouse enclosure,and it was within 3 ft of the house,also my sago was fried next to it,but my sabal minor looked great,and it is next to the sago,which is next to the T.Fort.all under the greenhouse enclosure.

Wow! There is a lot of information on this thread.

Markywonder, I too am in zone 6a, but I'm in Rochester NY (there's a small patch of 6a under SE Lake Ontario). I can't find anyone in my area who's trying this, so you're the closest I've got.

I'm a huge palm tree lover and just recently discovered that there are cold-hardy palms out there and started researching. I bought one of each, T. fortunei and T. latisectus to test. I wanted the T. wagnerianus instead of latisectus because the latisectus isn't as cold-hardy from what I've read, but it's hard to find good waggies. So I'm going to experiment with those (and am still searching for waggies). I do see a lot of seeds out there and am considering setting up a greenhouse and growing as many as I can... but I don't want to invest that kind of money just yet.

I also bought some Musa Basjoo (bananas) to experiment with and gave them out to a few gardeners I know, just to see how it goes for different people in my area. So far, the bananas are growing great! I'm scared of planting the palms outside yet though. How long did you wait before planting them outside?

juni-perez,you can find T.wags on e-bay,just type in trachycarpus.If your going to plant nows the time!

Meh.. thanks jimhardy, but the ones that come up are either seeds or they're in Europe somewhere. There was someone selling 5 for $100.00 but I don't want five of them. Lol. I'll wait to see if they split them up (they do look nice).

Hey all, I live in NYC area. I have a few 5 gal waggys in pots on my sun porch. I plan to plant them this spring. Is Markwonder around? Please email me pryco64@yahoo.com I would like to know your continued progress with your waggys since you planted them in 06. Do you still only use mulch to protect them? This winter is a cold one. thanks paul

I am from the city of Lawrence MA, which is Zone 6, I might try some waggies for my area, who has experience which sabal McCurtain in New England, If anyone had one survive the 03-04 hellacious winter.

I bought a few hundred T. Takil seeds and 20 sabal minor seeds. I am awaiting germination, but every last one is going to be planted outside. We are on the zone 5/6 cusp whether USDA says we are a solid zone 6 or not. Hopefully even a couple out of the mass of seeds will be able to make it. Also zone 6 does not have a minimum temperature of -10 Fas implied above. Its average low temperature is -10 F. It can get down to -30 F as it did in 1961 here. Your plants may go a decade without surpassing -10, but when the -20 comes around we will see how well they do. I will keep trying though. Musa basjoo is doing quite well. Dies back to the earth every year, but it has a very extensive root system, and I don't think even -30 will freeze the ground as far down as these things go. I planted mine into t 2' deep container with no bottom to contain them. I figured they could not pass under that, but sure enough they had by the next spring.

It is wishful thinking that any Trachycarpus will make it through -20F unprotected seedling or not. Protection will be the norm for you all most winters.

Sorry to bump this thread from out of the grave but I'm (very) interested in getting a Waggie. I like what I'm hearing about it and I didn't know it was this beautiful until today.

Would it do well as a house plant? Humidity typically in the 30's-40's when it's cold outside. I'm currently in an apartment which is the main thing stopping me from getting a palm, we face Northwest & West so there's no Southern window although the sun can get pretty intense...speaking of light can it survive off of regular artificial lighting?

I know indoor palms can attract certain harmful bugs (harmful to the plant), is this due to the dryness? Would spraying it with water work? We have a terrace it can stay on which wouldn't really count as indoors, but would that still be potentially harmful? It'd probably be indoors from late November to early March due to the cold and it not being in the ground, it probably can still go outside a lot during this 3 month period though.

I saw a good deal on eBay, a nice small Waggie. We've never had a plant before let alone a palm tree.

Go for it!

I keep mine as a houseplant in the winter because I like look of it, and I have it in a cool pot. It does fine, grows a little, but the best part is it doesn't seem to get bugs or dry out from the indoor dry air blowing. I have heat vents blowing right on it with no ill effect. It will definitely benefit from being outdoors in warmer weather though.

Do they sell small bags of potting soil? Like for a gallon pot? Everything I've seen was huge.

I'm still torn between a Waggie, a Filabusta, and a Canary. I'm leaning towards a Waggie because it's the smallest and will be more suitable for now.

cfa li, if you are growing these as interior palms, you should be aware that P. canariensis is a MASSIVE palm. They can also take out an eye if you are not careful about those thorns. I love them--I have a half dozen of them--BIG ones. The largest of which is about 7 feet tall and still outside. I grew them all from seed (very easy from seed by the way)--as are Washingtonias (another MASSIVE and FAST growing palm). For your conditions, I'd go with the Waggie or a Tracycarpus fortunei (Windmill palm). Another easy, cold-tolerant palm is Butia capitata (Pindo Palm)--They are not fan palms but feather palms and relatively large ones are also sold on ebay--also without thorns--as are the Trachycarpus.

Thanks, and yeah I'm definitely going with the Waggie, the Canary (although currently tiny) gets far too HUGE, and the Filabusta might get a little too big too fast which is great but not for an indoor plant, I might get it anyways since by the time it'd get large I probably wouldn't be living here anymore. I might end up doing both the Waggie and the Filabusta.

Do Waggies like heat? Because in the Summer it'd get a lot of it, our terrace is usually 10+ degrees hotter than outside, even at night it'd still be pushing 90 (especially on a hot day). The Filabusta might love this but I'm not sure about the Waggie since it's more of a temperate palm. I can easily bring it inside but I'm just curious.

Both are currently seedlings, I think the Waggie is a little bigger though.

Do Filabustas grow that fast that'd it'd be a problem?

My main problem is getting dirt/soil as I know absolutely nothing about that.

Trachycarpus palms will take summer heat--make sure you keep up with the watering and watch the container size. It should be large enough so that the thing doesn't bake on the terrace but not too big. Worst case scenario is that they slow down in high summer heat but then pick once once it gets cooler. Filibusta is a hybrid (filifera/robusta), not sure of its growth but assume it's somewhere between the two with respect to growth. W. robusta is called 'robusta' for a reason--it grows fast and well. They do have the advantage of tolerating that low indoor humidity as they are native to semiarid regions. Washingtonias are terrific palms and they are 'common' for good reason! Years ago, when I first started with palms, I bought maybe 20 seedlings from an mail-order source. I requested a Washingtonia but the grower didn't have one in stock. He kindly went to his Calif. backyard and yanked out a weed seedling growing on the side of the house (a single leaf--looked like a blade of grass). Well, over the years, all the exotic palms from that batch died but that Tex/Mex native. It's now at about six feet with massive leaves. Watch those spines in the house though! As for soil, any Home Depot, Lowe's or good garden center should carry soil. Make sure your soil is well-draining--add sand or perlite. Good luck.

Do you know where I can get a wagnerianus of good size? I lost 2 fortuneiis last winter (southeast PA, onthe edge of 6b/7a.

@pjb448 yep! Prices aren't too bad with shipping at XLB: https://shop.xlbpalmtrees.com/products/kumaon-palm-wagnerius?variant=16508827909. Note these are wagnerianus trees. It says /Takil but he doesn't actually sell any Takil trees, he's just mistaken by the old Waggie/Takil confusion. Pictures are of Fortunei plants which is also weird, but as a customer I can verify they are indeed Wagnerianus.

An alternative is Montreal Palms (http://montrealplants.com/?s=wagnerianus&post_type=product). The trees aren't as big for the price and larger trees cost much more than at XLB. Shipping is extra and he doesn't give you an exact figure - you don't know until your card is charged because he charges you close to cost for shipping and doesn't know what the cost is until he brings it to post - it's based on weight. From my experience buying smaller trees makes more sense from Montreal palms, but bigger trees are best bought at XLB, provided they have the species and size you're looking for, economically speaking.

I know that XLB will charge maximum $250 shipping to the US, so you can order as many trees as you want if you're buying enough to exceed $250 in shipping costs. The downside is that the minimum shipping cost is $50, so buying 3-gallon trees on their own is usually a waste of money. I don't know if there is a maximum per order at Montreal palms as I haven't bought in bulk from there yet, but I do plan to this coming Spring. I want some of his 10' needle palms!