Maybe they will one day become more widely planted in your area. One can always dream! They can easily handle 10 degrees without protection and most areas of brooklyn will rarely go below 5 degrees these days.
In fact, I think they should rate the NYC area a 7b and the city a zone 8a because of all the heat from those buildings. The reason why they havent yet is because the offical weather station for NYC is in central park which is at least 3-4 degrees cooler than New york city itself because of all the trees, lack of buildings, and it is also quite a bit away from the water and is located toward the northern portion of NYC.
So I think a sabal minor should have little problems after its 1-2 or second brooklyn winter in the ground. The first two years are critical for most palms, after that their roots are estabilshed and they can handle much colder temps.
Good luck

You are so right - some parts of the city where there is any green left between buildings and subways could eek out an 8a and central park readings are soooo off. So many times in a heat wave - times square is 100 and brooklyn 99* and CP comes in with 89* and they say the heat wave is not official. Plus we are south of manhattan surrounded by water- we do fluxuate between 7a-b 9 out of ten years.

I definately think its time to come out with a new USDA map. The last one has major cities like DC, Philly, and NYC as a zone 6b even though they should be 7b's or 8a's. They have Long Island and coastal conneticut as a zone 7a and I would think that they get at least sligtly cooler there than in the city's center because of all the concrete, lights, people, ect... present in the city as well as water.

The arbor day map from 2006 is a little better, but they say NYC is a zone 7a as well and probably use the central park thermometer. Central park's purpose is as a haven of trees and sports in the middle of a concrete city, so its suppost to be colder because it is more open. So I dont think it reflects the cities true temperatures or the surrounding areas because they are a bit further south and also influenced by water.

I think if they would rate the northeastern cities higher, even more tropical looking plants would be seen and used in landscape. Atlanta used to be a zone 7 and was changed to a 8a, and since then sabal palmettos and windmill palms have been poping up around the city.

It would be really cool to see future USDA maps allow people to zoom into cities and show you a zone that reflects a neighborhoods microclimate. If that happened than cities like NYC would probably be split into 2 different zones. I think the central park area would probably be a 7a with northern parts maybe as a 6b and the center of the city would be a 7b or maybe even an 8a in places where lights are bright and give off heat. In DC their are some definate microclimates that would bring the city to zone 8a status.

Maybe one day when a new usda zone map comes out, they will have new and useful features like this to help out gardeners.

I'm glad I looked at this forum yesterday. I went to Lowes today and pick up two of the blue containers. I got the six sabal Minors on sale for $30 a container!!! If anyone in Brooklyn wants to get one, it's only 1 left!!! Thanks for the heads up Greg. Now I have 10 sabal minors!! I just hope these new ones do as good as the 4 Sabals I've had in the gruond for 1 year. When I figure out how to post photos, I'll put all my trunked yuccas & Trachycarpus that are still alive and well here in Brooklyn, NY.

tropicalzone7, I think you put too "much weight" on the significance of a USDA zone designation. These are based on averages, and to have a microclimate on a map? Are YOU gonna be the one monitoring the lee and windward sides of all buildings on Manhattan for example? The USDA map fails to reflect duration of cold and also the damaging effects of wind in winter, too. What would be ideal is if a Sunset Zone could be set up for eastern urban areas--THAT would be much more beneficial!

I think the major obstacle to not having as many palms in NY is the psyche of nurserymen and big box stores (who ship olut products to regional needs and schedules, not individual stores). I've found many people are so shocked to see a needle palm when not in the South that I'm not so sure a businessman will so quickly say "I have the next big product to sell" and then will invest $1000s to flood the market with them.

What I meant was NYC gives off alot of heat. That goes for many cities, but the USDA zones dont reflect that. For example the city of Orlando, Florida will not nesesarily get a frost when the more rural areas of the city do. Thats a big difference for tropical plants and is the difference between life and death for plants like foxtails and coconuts.

Same for NYC. The city used to be rated as a zone 6b even though negative temperatures are very rare for the city. In fact central park recorded a record low of -15 in 1934 (source: msn weather) where as JFK (an airport in queens) which lays by the water reocrded a record low of only -2 in 1985 (source: www.weather.com). Now im not sure if central park had lower temperature readings because it was operating longer therefore went through a longer time period of weather data, but their is no doubt that the center of the city is much warmer than the park just like any city.

Now actually looking for microclimates is a bit extreme for now, but one day who knows, maybe they will have sensors on street lights that will monitor temeperatures, and maybe even snow cover which is an important insulator for many plants especially perennials. From their it would be very simple for the street light to automatically load the temperature readings to a computer for the USDA. Then the computer can eventually, automatically, and acurately make a USDA map based on microclimates. So oneday its possible, but for now they should come up with an accurate USDA map that also reflects the heat a major city will give off, as well as more accurately show how water features (like an ocean or very large lake) can affect mimimal winter temps.

In my life of 49 years the temps only went down to -2 two times and overall it warms and thaws a lot into 40s and 50s many winters because of the ocean and city heat island. Its the cold hard Jan/feb winds of NYC and occationally prolonged teen and upper single nights that drag the zone to a low 7 - but I agree most of the time NYC is a 7b. If you understand microclimates - wow you can have an 8a without going crazy with electric blankets and all and get away with plastic tenting on the south side of a building. Just a heads-up - and one who has property over subways and near steam pipes and is savy - you are 8a in NYC and get planting - throw in a south facing side and wow (8b)you'll be in the papers fro growing a cabbage palm:-)Can't believe it hasn't been done yet?

A Louisiana Sabal and a Sabal Minor have been growing for at least two winters at Manhattan's Tompkins Square Park. A third hardy palm, proabably a Windmill, is just barely hanging on after this past winter. Last winter the Louisiana Sabal was wrapped in bubble wrap, but this year not. Across the East River in Brooklyn's Botanical Garden a 10 foot tall Trachy, (tented in winter), is hanging in there as is an unprotected Rhapidophyllum histrix. New York is hardy palm ready, albeit in the microclimates of south facing gardens and huddled up to the sunny sides of buildings.

Thanks for the info on that, Ill have to see if I can check those out. Last year I also saw some large windmill palms at the central park zoo (they look like they were just planted), I should probably check up on those too to see if they made it!

The big trachy at bbg was unprotected this year and it looks dead

Hate to tell ya
but 8a-8b?

No way,I don't care what your "micro-climate" is-you can't compare somewhere in N.Y. and say it's 8a to somewhere that's dry in winter like parts of New Mexico-Arizona.
Your minimum lows don't mean that much when you consider that Needle palms and Trachys can bite it in repeated raining/freezing weather,even when it's only in the 20s

This is a time when usda zones dont matter as much. Areas in marginal zones with lots of winter moisture will always need to protect there plants from the moisture. I dont think temperatures are that much of a problem in NYC because they dont go below 5 very often, but there is a lot of winter moisture in the form of both rain and snow (many times it starts out as rain and freezes and then turns into snow). That is pretty much the worst weather for palms. Now if you have a palm on the southside of a building underneath a structure, that could make palms do much better because they will be drier and warmer. The only downside then would be the strong winter winds that flow down the streets.

I hope the windmill palm at the Brooklyn Botanical Gardens makes it.

I was at Angel Plants this week, they are one of the wholesalers for Home Depot. They had a few hundred cold hardy palms. Needles, Tracys, Sabal Minors, Silver and Green Meds and Pindos. I grabbed another Trachy to plant at my office. They also had a Washintonia, cant tell which variety it is. I was buried in the back of a greenhouse and they did not know what it was so I grabbed it. It will need some extra love during the winter, but I am going to give it a try.

As far as zones, LI and NYC are solid 7a, some micro 7b, but def not 8. The zone maps are flawed in many other ways too. They do not take into account duration of cold nor summer highs. Down south, 7a is very different that NYC or LI 7a. I live on the water so I have a great microclimate. I am a z8 most years, as long as the bay does not freeze. If it does, it is all over. Without the open water to mitigate, the temps drop and stay lower.

I am suprised about the Trachy at BBG. Mine came through fine with only a plastic cover to keep the rain off. I am really believing that the cold is not the issue, but the snow and ice getting into the spear and doing damage leading to infection and rot. Hopefully it will pull through. Landcraft Environments out east, a breeder, has four nice trachy's, about 8' and the looked great last week. He covers them like I do, just to keep the snow off.

Im also surprised at the windmill palm at BBG. I had a smaller and sickly windmill palm that I only put a frost cloth on, which blew off on some of the coldest nights of the year. It was also compleltely buried in snow many times (because we got a lot of snow this winter). Now it has already pushed a new leaf out and is doing better than it was all of last summer. I protected my other windmill palm and it also did really well and had no more damage than what it had when it was going into the winter. Im hoping now that they are established they will look nicer and get some healthy green growth.
Good luck!

We have junipers that suffered winter burn this season as did several other evergreens. Let's wait till June to see if the Trachy sprouts new fronds. I hope it made it as we only went down to 13 degrees in Central Park. Speaking of which, I think I'll check out the windmills at the Central Park Zoo. Thanks tropicalzone7. Meanwhile, 2 of the 3 the Tompkins Palms look just fine, the third ... well lets see what May brings.

Your welcome. Heres a pic of what they looked like in April of last year. I think they were by the penguin pool, but it is visible from outside the zoo entrance.

I saw some small trachys at NYBG on the left of the conservatory in the perennial garden and they look good. The unprotected yuccas, sabal minor and needle look good at BBG. im not shure about the ones in central park zoo.

Seems like some palms in the NYC area made it, and some didnt. Sabals and needles seem pretty hardy in NYC when older, but windmill palms seem pretty marginal without some protection, or the aid of a good microclimate.

Thanks for the updates on these palms.
Good luck!

One thing that's nice about your area,NY,etc is you don't really need much(if any heat)just moisture protection(-:

Who resurrected this blog.. lol.

Jimhardy, I would never think a minumum temp in NY like 14* makes us a 8a for a season could be compared to NM or AZ. Yes, these palm trees must be covered here because of so much froozen precip. However folks with steam pipes under their property could plant a sabal palmetto if they tried. Most never even think of this stuff.

BTW, the palm in the Brooklyn Botanical Garden was so neglected (not even covered this year)and whoever took over the palm garden there just killed it and is not properly experienced. Since the 1980s they tented that palm b/c its in an open feild and it thrived! Then inside the tiny tent they use to place a couple of 5 gal water jugs to aborb heat during winter days and radiate it back out at nite. Its a cold location but it worked for 20 years.

I just came back from the BBG - cherry blossoms and hyacinth are in bloom, very beautiful.

Sadly, the palm has been removed, just a mound of dirt remains. After reading the posts here, I thought maybe it was just burned a bit and would look a bit rough for spring (as it always did). But alas, it must have been terminal. What a shame - after all these years.

If I recall correctly, it wasn't the most cold hardy of the species, perhaps a poor decision from the start? I don't know, it's just a shame that it was met with so much neglect this year.

I find it very surprising that the BBG palm went out as terminal when the minimum was only a mere 14 F.. I did not cover mine and had the same WET winter. I'm NORTH of Brooklyn and mine are growing strong. What gives Brooklyn!

Yeah Im surprised too. My small windmill palm was not protected during the worst of the winter (it was completely covered in snow and solid ice for as long as 3 days) and survived and now is pushing out new leaves. But unfortunately most of my unprotected needle palm is dead (only the pups survived). But Im surprised the BBG windmill palm didnt make it since my weather is similar to theres, but I guess the palm is pretty exposed which may have to do with the problem.

^^^Whoops, I already mentioned about my windmill palm in a previous post on this thread.

Great discussion.

The tracky palm at BBG was not a poor choice, deciding not to cover it was unwise because the open-field location is a poor choice for a palm garden in a cold zone 7. They may have not even mulched it. The fuzzy stuff around the trunk was removed and the sign that "was" there 3 years ago said neve to remove it because it insulates the palm. They removed it 2 years ago from the first 2 feet from the ground and left her exposed. This is someone with poor training doing this. PS and the sign was removed last year as well.

They have many great mircoclimates that would be suitable if choosing not to cover the tracky. It was quite tall and survived over 20 years.