This is some information from another website. I can't vouch for it. ellen Just a few alternatives to synthetic pesticide poisons: 1. Neem - One of the best natural or botanical pesticides for controlling bloodfeeding arthropods and other pests is Neem. What is Neem? Neem, a member of the Meliaceae family and a botanical cousin of mahogany, is a tall, fast-growing, evergreen tree which has an attractive crown of deep-green leaves and masses of honey-scented flowers and thrives even in nutrient-poor, dry soil. It tolerates high temperatures, low rainfall, long spells of drought and salinity, and can be propagated by seed. Because of its many benefits, neem has been worshipped as a goddess in India. Neem is bitter in taste. The bitterness is due to the presence of an array of complex compounds called "triterpenes" or more specifically "liminoids". The most important bioactive principle is a terpenoid known as azadirachtin; however, at least 10 other neem limonoids also possess insect growth regulating activity. The tree's scientific name is Azadiractita indica. Neem has been used for centuries primarily against household and storage pests, and to a limited extent against crop pests. Neem trees were the only green thing left standing during a ravaging locust plague in Sudan in 1959. Neem does not kill pests but affects their behavior and physiology and reduces the risk of exposing the pests' natural enemies to poisoned food sources or starvation. Neem derivatives affect more than 200 insect species belonging to Coleoptera, Diptera, Heteroptera, Homoptera, Hymenoptera, Lepidoptera, Orthoptera, Thysanoptera, several species of mites and nematodes, and even noxious snails and fungi. Although neem oil can be used directly for pest control, semi-purified "bitters" and "neem rich" fractions can easily be standardized for biological properties and could satisfy even stringent quality requirements. Being water soluble, they also can be applied as systemic compounds which render them more photostable and nonphytotoxic. A garlic odor often present in other neem products is absent in "bitters". Neem products are effective and relatively hazard-free. An added benefit of using semi-purified neem fractions, rather than pure compounds, is that pests will be less likely to develop resistance. Neem compounds act together on several different behavioral and physiological processes which also helps prevent insects from evolving resistance to the compound. Their effects include repellence, feeding deterrence, reduced ingestion and digestion of food, poor growth and development, reduced longevity and fecundity, mating disruption, oviposition deterrence, inhibition of egg hatchability, molting failures and direct toxicity. Reports suggest that by paralyzing the muscles in the insects' mandibles neem induces starvation. At lower than lethal dozes, azadirachtin also mimics juvenile hormone, preventing insects from maturing. Neem-based insecticides can be further fortified against dynamic pests by optimizing their use with microbials or other botanicals. Neem fruits, seeds, oil, leaves, bark and roots can be used as general antiseptics, antimicrobials for the treatment of urinary disorders, diarrhea, fever, bronchitis, skin diseases, septic sores, infected burns, hypertension and inflammatory diseases. Neem oil and its isolates - nimbidin, nimbidol and nimbin - inhibit fungal growth on humans and animals. Neem leaf extracts and teas are used to treat malaria; ioquin tablets and injections containing neem extract are currently being formulated for treating chronic malaria. Exposing kissing bugs (Rhodnius prolixus), the major vector of Chagas disease in Latin America, to neem extracts or to azadirachtin "immunizes" them against their internal protozoan parasite Trypanosoma cruzi. We are trying it on termites. Cattle leaf supplements containing neem leaf powder are used as worm killers. Creams containing neem oil are used for animal wound dressing and also act as fly and mosquito repellents. Neem oil in human bathing and laundry soap kills lice and neem in dog soaps and shampoos controls ticks and fleas. Neem twigs are used daily by millions in Bangladesh, India and Pakistan as disposable toothbrushes; extracts of neem bark are used in some toothpastes and mouthwashes. Neem plantings also serve as a refuge for honeybees, wasps, spiders, birds, bats and other beneficial organisms, and the litter of falling leaves can improve soil fertility. Neem overall as a relatively safe, natural (botanical) pesticide poison with numerous benefits. Neem nectar does not kill pollinating bees. 2. Noxema - We have found that Noxema® or Ben-Gay® applied to the exposed skin of children and people repels mosquitoes and other pests. (Always check to see if you are sensitive before using any product.) 3. Invincible Herbal Insect Repellent from Great Garden Formulas by Joan Benjamin and Deborah L. Martin: "...before heading outdoors, I douse myself with an incredible repellent that my friend Marion Spear and I concocted, Tina Wilcox, head gardener at the Ozark Folk Center in Mountain View, Arkansas says. "It renders me almost invincible to both insects and poison ivy!" Ingredients and Supplies: 1 large handful fresh jewelweed (Impatiens capensis) 1 large glass jar with plastic lid (vinegar corrodes metal) 1 strainer 1 quart apple cider vinegar ½ teaspoon pennyroyal oil 1 teaspoon eucalyptus oil 1 teaspoon orange oil 1 teaspoon citronella oil 1 plastic spray bottle Directions: Crush jewelweed in the jar and cover with vinegar. Let steep for several days. Strain out the jewelweed and mix essential oils into the vinegar. Before applying all over, spray a small amount on the inside of your arm and monitor for 15 minutes for any allergic reaction. To use, spray thoroughly on clothing and lightly on any exposed skin except your face. Reapply every ½ hour or so. (To keep insects away from your face, spray your hat or bandanna.) Yield: About 1 quart of invincible spray. Note: This formula will keep indefinitely. Caution: If you are pregnant, don't use pennyroyal, even topically, as it may increase the risk of miscarriage. Note: Citronella oil has been known to attract female black bears.

I may have part of the answer regarding why aspirin may be of some use. A few years ago, I had a class in plant pathology during my university years during which we had discussed methyl salicylate's role in plant disease. We had come across a paper in a scientific journal relating an experiment on tobacco plants (frequently used in research because they'll catch almost any disease imaginable and they're cheap and easy to grow) following the discovery that some plants, when infected by some disease, gave off some of it in the form of vapor. What was observed was that the neighboring plants, although eventually attacked as well by the same disease, showed less severe symptoms. An experiment was then conducted under controlled conditions during which tobacco plants were exposed to the compound. What was found was that methyl salicylate did in fact improve the plants' ability to withstand disease. So what happenned ? I can't remember what was said in the paper following the results, but the answer undoubtedly lies in what are called elicitors and messengers. I'll spare you the details (and for myself, the task of digging through my old school notes in some forgotten corner of the basement) but the big idea of it is that some plants produce certain chemical compounds under certain stresses (such as disease) which may evaporate out of the plant and be dispersed in the surrounding air. Neighboring plants of the same species would then, upon contact with trace amount of the messenger chemical, react by producing increased quantities of some compounds which increase their ability to withstand stress (such as additional cell wall material, certain plant hormones, increased quantities of wax on the leaves which would slow fungal attack). This may sound far-fetched, but keep in mind that plants are highly complex organisms and that most of them do have some biological or chemical way of reducing their susceptibility to disease. Of course, not all plants may produce methyl salicylate, not all plants may react to it, and not all plants may produce volatile compounds. But within the same plant, there are often distinctly observable reactions in healthy plant parts when one of them is under attack by a pathogen. As I said, there may be more wax production, there may be a change in leaf orientation on new growth (in order to reduce moisture retention on the leaf surface, thus reducing the ability of some pathogens to survive before penetrating the leaf surface), there may be changes in the chemical make-up of sap and so on. Reactions such as this have repeatedly been observed in many plants under stress. While it may not always allow a plant to ultimately survive the disease, it may allow it some extra time to flower and set seed, thus allowing it to reproduce. Imagine the population-wide advantage of having stumbled upon the ability to communicate such information as the presence of disease ! Anyhoo, back to your roses and black spot. Perhaps roses would react to aspirin, perhaps not. It's certainly worth a try in my opinion and I dout it would harm the plants. One thing it will certainly not do, however, is act as a fungicide; at best, expect a reduced incidence and/or severity of black spot on the plants you'd have sprayed with aspirin. Some people might object to spraying man-made compounds such as aspirin in their yard even though it does occur naturally in some plants (like many other synthetics, which naturally occur in several life forms), but that's a matter of personal opinion. If you're one of those people, but you're intrigued by this whole aspirin idea, you might want to try researching willows or wintergreen. Aspirin was first developed from willow leaves (indians used to chew them as a cure for headaches) and wintergreen contains methyl salicylate, so there may be some way to use them as a natural plant spray. I have no idea if it would work, this is purely hypothetic, but who knows.... I hope this has been informative....good luck !

I've never posted in this forum, and I don't want to spend a lot of time introducing myself, but since 2002 I have moderated three organic lawn care forums around the Internet. I live in San Antonio and have noticed the mention of Malcolm Beck in another post by strawberryhill. That made me feel a little at home here. I have met Beck on many occasions as he had a monthly organic gardening community meeting running for a year or so in the early 2000s. Malcolm is considered the father of organic gardening in our part of Texas and has a huge following, so it is nice to see his mention in this forum. I have an observation or two (or a lot more) on this forum, but in the context of this thread, I'd like to hold my keyboard back somewhat. All my focus has been in lawns for these years, but in the course of many meetings and keeping my ear to the ground, I have learned a little about how the community cares for roses. First of all, to answer a question asked way up on this, the application rate for molasses over an area is 1 gallon per acre which equates to 3 ounces per 1,000 square feet. For spraying roses, the San Antonio organic community typically uses 3 ounces of molasses along with 3 ounces of liquid seaweed per gallon of water. Spray the undersides of the leaves and all surfaces of the plant. What this apparently does is feed the microbes living on the outside of the plant and those microbes help ward off sucking pests. If you add 3 ounces of garlic juice to the mix, it helps keep thrips off the roses. If you have not already discovered it, check your local farm and ranch co-op to see if they sell bulk molasses. Bulk molasses is sold by the pound. I think the current price is around $0.15 per pound which equates to about a $1.50 per gallon. This stuff is feed grade molasses, not food grade. Also I'd like to respond to somethings strawberryhill said above. This might be long so get comfortable. I have the same good results breaking up my rock hard dolomitic/limestone clay here with gypsum. I was digging a hole and stopped at rock-hard limestone at the bottom. I sprinkled gypsum, poured some water, and took a few hours break. I came back, and the bottom was softened enough to fish out more stones. I would highly suggest you get a soil test done before adding anything like gypsum to your soil. The best soil test lab in the country seems to be Logan Labs in Ohio. By best I mean bang for the buck as well as reliability in their test results. For $20 you get testing done that would cost up to $100 at most university soil test facilities. At LL that is their normal test so they are very experienced to doing it. At a university these would be considered "extra" and they'd have to order chemicals and relearn how to do the test. And in general, adding gypsum type calcium to a soil that is already calcareous seems like the wrong approach. In the past I dumped peat moss (pH 4), or alfalfa meal (pH 5.7) at the bottom of the hole. BIG MISTAKE ! Those fine particles glued up with my sticky clay ... and became concrete. University of California Extension listed 1 ton of gypsum as equivalent to 5.38 ton of sulfur. The only thing I would put in the bottom of the hole would be micorrhizal fungi and possibly rock phosphate. I also tested how sulfur soften my clay ... takes way longer than gypsum. It took at least one month for the sulfur to have an effect. A bit of gypsum is 5 times more effective than sulfur to soften clay, also to de-salt saline soil. First of all I would disagree with making this sound like a blanket statement. Gypsum does not soften soil except in special circumstances. Sulfur is a fungicide which kills the beneficial fungi which normally soften soil. So sulfur would be a bad idea for softening the soil. In the lawn community there are commercial surfactants sold to soften soil for professional sports complexes and golf courses. The cost roughly $70 per gallon which is out of reach for most home owners, but not out of reach for one of the moderators I worked with for several years. He also happens to be a soap hobbyist and junior chemist. Basically he tried the various surfactant materials and found they worked fantastic. Then he reverse engineered them and examined the ingredients. Then he bought those ingredients on eBay and started experimenting. As his basic tool he uses a screwdriver. Stab the screwdriver into the ground and measure how deep it goes. Then soften the soil and measure the penetration. Then along I came and simplified his approach. I have been recommending the use of baby shampoo at the rate of 3 ounces per 1,000 square feet. Apply to the soil and immediately follow up with 1 inch of water. A week later give another inch of water. A week after that reapply the shampoo and inch of water. That should set up the soil environment to favor the beneficial fungi which normally keep the soil soft. In the typical lawn this has worked across the country. In my yard after watering my soil is almost too soft to walk on without turning an ankle. That moderator experimented with increasing amounts of his surfactant to see how deep his soil would soften. He got up to about 50 ounces of surfactant per 1,000 square feet every week for months. There was no problem to the lawn (but I would redo this for roses to be sure). As far as softness, basically he ran out of screwdriver and had to resort to other measuring devices. I believe he was at a comfortable 20 inches or so of pretty soft soil (he's north of Philly). Another mod had a tree limb bury itself 27 inches deep in his lawn. So I would highly recommend trying this. Molasses & gypsum & sulfate of potash to lower alkaline water: It works better than vinegar, I wilted a few roses by watering plus vinegar in high heat. I tried used lemons last year, didn't green up. Molasses is thick so I dilute molasses with water, before adding the other 2 powders and shake the bottle. Then I use 1 teaspoon of that pre-mixed solution per 2 gallons water. Here's the basics if used from concentrated. Again making the blanket statement that gypsum is good for the soil is not going to work for many people. Certainly it won't work in Texas where most of the soil is limestone with a pH of 8.0. Normally we use vinegar instead of RoundUp to kill plants. Spraying it on plants is one thing (non selective herbicide), but using it on the soil is another (carbohydrate bacteria food). And I'm also interested in the mention and use of potassium sulfate (sulfate of potash). That is not an organic material. That is salt. I realize it is used in every commercially branded organic fertilizer, but that is why I never use those. So I'm curious why it is so prominent in an organic forum and what it does to enhance rose health or production. One teaspoon of thick molasses per 2 gallons of water, beyond that will turn the edge of leaves brownish (I did that to Gina's rose, most likely from the 20% iron of molasses). Wholesome Organics (zero salt) and Plantation brand (low-salt) also has 15% calcium and 20% potassium. I have not heard of any problems using 3 ounces of molasses per gallon. I'll check into this further. The purpose of adding sulfate of potash and calcium sulfate (gypsum) is to utilize the sulfur part to green up roses, and neutralize the lime in tap water. Again this only applies to calcarious soils, but I believe there is a much better material to use. Sulfur is a fungicide surpassed only in potency by most sulfates. If you want to harden your soil, the first thing you should use to kill the beneficial fungi is sulfates. If you have calcarious soil, you'll be better off using greensand (if you can find it) and mulching with a shredded tree mulch. As the mulch decomposes the organic humic acids from that process will do more to acidify your soil than sulfur. Any tree trimmer has the material you need. One teaspoon of gypsum powder per gallon of water, beyond that will make plants more prone to fungal diseases (rust and black spots). Too much calcium drives down potassium, necessary for disease-prevention. Instead scatter whole ground corn meal (the kind you cook with or animal feed) around the base of your roses. Cornmeal attracts the trichoderma (try koh DER mah) fungus. Trichoderma is a predatory fungus which feeds on the cell walls of other fungi. This research was done on peanuts at Texas A&M in Stephenville. They have suppressed the research and recently took it off the web. Basically what they found was that peanuts, which normally develop a fungal disease over the course of a season, had to be rotated with a non-fungal crop every year. By using ordinary corn meal on the ground (20 pounds per 1,000 square feet), they were able to use the same soil to grow peanuts year after year. I tried it on my roses and the PM and black spot disappeared in a 3 weeks. Corn meal is also a weak organic fertilizer so there is certainly no harm to try this approach. There was a lot more about the use of potassium sulfate and gypsum, so while I believe those are not good for an organic garden, I am interested to know why y'all thing they are.

Saving the juice is a great idea. Now, when you say "better quality sugars", what exactly does that mean? Not just granulated sugar like you would buy in the grocery store? Have you noticed a real diference in the taste of the finished wine when using corn sugar? Oh, and where do you buy your corn sugar at the cheapest price? Do you have a retail source or the internet or what? Can't say I would disagree with your Mrs. about the money issue, but then I haven't used grape juices by the gallon, yet, either (I actually like non-grape fruit wines more). You might have sources there in Pennsylvania which are not avilable to us here in Connecticut. Still, if you can make a 5 gallon batch from a gallon of juice, $17 isn't all that bad. Twenty-five bottles of wine for less than $20 beats the stuffing out of what you can buy in a store. I haven't made Elderberry since I helped my folks make some years and years ago. Then, we could just go pick the berries wild. Now, I don't live where Elder bushes grow. I'm in the intitial stage of planning out a planting on a pretty small plot of land, in which I hope to include blackberries, raspberries and blueberries. Elders may find a home here eventually, but they are not on my radar yet.