Dont amend it. You'll just create a bowl for the water to sit in. I would do raised beds and plant in them.

Mike

plant them! Most of Texas has clay soil and they do great. Like Mike says if you amend it they just sit in a bowl, you can pull a plant out 15 years later and the roots will be in that bowl shape.
It helps to dig up an area several times larger than the plant will go into, mix some organic matter in with the soil and plant, keep mulching and adding organic material to your yard, it will, eventually get better.
Tally HO!

Add gypsum and break up the soil a little. I too have super dense clay and the plants are great. However, the roots will not grow vertical but everything will grow lateral. May not be a bid deal but if you plants trees that get big shallow roots...something to be aware of.

Hibiscus = candy for bugs (snails, whitefly, etc). I have a nice row of them but the snails love them......i would never plant them again.

On the plumeria side of things i only have two in the ground because of the clay........hours of amending the soil allowed me to plant them.

Cheers
Mike
Ventura, Calif

I can't do a raise bed due to space. Especially the side yard, where we literally have 18 inches of space from the foundation to plant some small flowers. I might be able to do it in the back yard but I don't like the feeling of being so enclosed. I grew up 30 miles west of Boston and had much bigger land, so I'm still adjusting to these tiny yards in CA.

Anyway so here is what I'm thinking...

1. Landscapers to dig up the whole planting areas 2 feet deep in the backyard, side yard and front and not just the individual holes where the plants will go so I can minimize the "bathtub effect".

2. Mix 5-8% organic Compost.

3. Let it sit for 3 weeks while they work on the hardscape. (Thinking back I should have had them prepared the soil while we wait on the HOA's approval the last 4 months!).

4. Plant

5. Cover with 2" of organic Mulch

6. Cover w/ decorative barks, rocks for Plumies.

As for Organic Compost, I'm not sure what brand to get. I can easily get horse manure locally... but I'm not a fan. Unless I know what they fed the horses I would rather not use any manure.

Total time for the water to drain in the 12" holes was 6 hours. Not great but not the worse. The soil is workable in a sense that it wasn't too hard for me to dig to 12 inches w/ a shovel and I'm a wimp. I found some nails and some rocks but over all not as bad as I thought.

Does that sound ok to you all? Decisions have to be made since they start at 7:30am Monday morning!

Hi No-Clue, I like your idea about the large-scale work project. We had something similar done 20+ years ago because our soil seems to be very much like yours (we are in Carlsbad, three miles from the beach). Added over 30 yards of top soil mix and can now grow most anything. I noticed, though, that unrooted cuttings (I have rooted some directly in the ground) or very young plumerias seem to adjust best to these conditions.
I don't know how close you are to the beach but I have problems with my roses (rust and mildew) pretty much every year. Further inland they seem to be healthier. Don't know if this applies to you, but might be something to take into consideration.
Good luck on Monday
Iso

I agree with Beachplant. We tend to have the same sort of soil ....here it is clay a little on the acidic side. I have planted plumerias in the ground with no problem, but usually because we have to watch the temps a couple of months of the year, I generally plant them in pots and sink them so they can be moved easily if necessary. The clay has never hurt them however when planted directly in the ground as long as they are not planted in poorly draining areas

Lynn, don't over-think this. PH is pretty irrelevant with plumies. Our water is so limey that I can't grow much here, but it doesn't bother the plumies one bit.

The water not draining is more of a problem with potted plants, but plumies are fairly shallow rooters. Remember that many cultivars in Thailand are grown right by canals where the soil is very soggy for months on end.

If you can amend the soil as you planned, maybe with some expanded shale to break up the clay, and then plant the trees in mounds they should do fine. You don't have to have raised beds, but that would work best.

You can also plunge your pots, i.e., bury them half-way into the ground. Then mulch around the top of the pots to keep the rootballs cooler in the heat of summer.

It'll be fine--these plants are tougher than you think when they get some size on them.

No Clue, what a drag. I would go with planting them in hugh pots, and sinking the pots in the ground. I did that last year, I used flared 5 gallon pots, they really grew tall. By the way, how many plumeria did you keep? I only ordered 2 from Florida Colors, so I could complete my low growers. I finally got dwarf watermelon. Now I am done, my new rule is get rid of one if I want a new one. .I am only keeping hot colors, so they show off in my yard. I should be able to post pictures this year. Last year I bought 14 new plants from FC, and 6 new plants from various sellers, so nothing was established, this year will be different. Barbra

Thanks you guys... this is all so confusing and so much work! Maybe I am over thinking this. When I asked my neighbors none of them knew what the heck I was talking about. They just hired a landscaper what whatever they put down is what they got. Not me though I'm picky and I only want plants/flowers that are either edible or highly fragrant.

Iso - I'm about 6 miles from the beaches and I think my micro-climate is different from folks closer to the beach. When I drove around the other day (around the older neighborhood nearby) almost everyone has roses! Just last week I stopped by a house and talked to the owner and we counted that she has over 80 roses of every color, size and shape! Absolutely breathtaking. I visited with her for almost any hour. She gave me tour of her yard and then inside her house. Her husband thought we were crazy... because we were hanging out talking about flowers for an hour when we have just met! LOL. She said her landscaper sprayed something every year so her roses are very healthy and disease free. So I think I might be ok planting some roses but I do not intend to spray them with anything... I want my garden to be organic only.

Jandey - about plunging the pots... I would have to put them down pretty far and hide the top half though. HOA here is very strict, so I can't have the pots half sticking up. But I'm willing to try that if it solves my slow drainage problem. And also do I just take the whole pot and put it in the hole or do I have to do anything special to the pot first??

Barbra - I still have all of them minus the 5 or so that I lost to the cold weather. I wanted to wait until they all wake up and make sure they are fine before I sell off some. So far I would say about 70% are showing signs of waking up. So this weekend I finally give them some FP. Hopefully that will push them along.

I also re-potted the Wildfire again b/c it was in Al's Gritty Mix and during the move one of the movers dropped it on it's side. It just looked so sad, and when I took it out... most of the roots have broken off!! I'm hoping by re-potting it will make a come back. Only time will tell I guess.

Again, I really appreciate all your help. I just want this project to be done so I can go outside and not breath in all the dust and have more time to chat with you all. Can't wait!

It's probably too late, but I've used Kellogg's AMEND with
great success in breaking up my caliche.

For those who don't know caliche is the soil they use to make
adobe bricks. Mix water, straw and caliche, let it sit in the sun
for a while and you have building bricks.

I planted my plumies in the ground with no amendment of
any kind. They're flourishing.

Take another look at those holes. They might be bone dry
by now. Caliche does drain slowly, but it does dry out quite
quickly after draining is done.

Roses are very tolerant of poor soil and either too much or too little water. We've got a few hybrid tea roses and there were a few I tried to completely dig out and kill and I've STILL got tons of suckers coming up from a tiny piece of rootstock somewhere several feet down that I just can't kill. Roses like some pruning and some fertilizer ( or even just some Epsom salts) and they're just fine. We've had some rust on less resistant varieties and a few aphids, but nothing hard to clear up.
Also consider artichokes. I planted one in a horrible, clay corner of the yard where it's sunny and not only are the big, silvery leaves beautiful... But the flowers are edible OR if you let them bloom, simply stunning. They die back a lot in winter but come back quickly in the spring and are perennials. Ours is neglected but does wonderfully!

As far as not spraying roses or plumeria, neem oil is organic and takes care of rust, mildew, aphids, spider mites, etc. Under the right conditions (or wrong, I should say), mildew, rust and aphids will really mess with roses. Makes them stunted and misshapen. Some roses are prone to black spot also, which will make them drop their leaves. Spider mites will really mess with plumerias also. You may have no choice but to spray if you get any of these pests or diseases.

This post was edited by DelWH on Mon, Apr 22, 13 at 2:57

Gypsum breaks down the tight bonds of clay so it drains better and can be picked up at Home Depot. I dig a hole and then put gypsum in and fill with water and let drain twice before planting. Raised is best and I wish someone made pretty glazed three foot high ceramic rings so I could plant above ground but let the plant root into the soil- the problem is how to replace when ten years down the road the ring looks not so great. I also thought of knocking the bottoms out of ceramic pots. You saw my raised planters which have worked well. Bill

qaguy - not too late. I'll look into Kellog's Amend since it sounds like I have "caliche" b/c my holes are bone dry for sure! But how much Amend to use? Should I still use the native soil or just get Amend and mix w/ potting soil???

Disneyhorse - I hope you are right about roses... for I have brown thumb! I will look into the artichokes.

DelWH - hopefully Neem will work for me so I won't have to spray. Trying to keep everything organic here.

Bill - I love your raised planters! And will look into Gypsum too. Thanks!

NC,
I Agree on the raised beds as being best. Doesn't have to be very high. Even 6-12 inches would help. I would recommend on your wildfire to keep it in diffused light and on the dry side for about two weeks until it starts to recover.

FWIW I started planting in ground this year. I would describe my soil as rock with some clay in between all covered by oak leaves.

Well, neem is organic. However it is an oil and is applied by spraying. This is from Wikipedia: "Formulations made of neem oil also find wide usage as a biopesticide for organic farming, as it repels a wide variety of pests including the mealy bug, beet armyworm, aphids, the cabbage worm, thrips, whiteflies, mites, fungus gnats, beetles, moth larvae, mushroom flies, leafminers, caterpillars, locust, nematodes and the Japanese beetle. It can be used as a household pesticide for ant, bedbug, cockroach, housefly, sand fly, snail, termite and mosquitoes both as repellent and larvicide (Puri 1999). Neem oil also controls black spot, powdery mildew, anthracnose and rust (fungus)."

AMEND is meant to use as a soil conditioner. I wouldn't
use it with potting soil, just mix it with existing soil.

Hmmm.... maybe my soil isn't all that bad! I drove around my neighborhood and found tons of houses w/ plumerias planted in the ground. Didn't have my camera with me so tomorrow I will go shoot some photos. And the roses are HUGE too! Holy cow they are huge.

Most of the home owners I talked to pretty much said they added top soil to the existing clay soil. Only one person used some kind of compost but he said it's the one that had all the other stuff in it. Great, very helpful. Not! LOL. In another word, most of them are pretty casual about it... and their plants are doing fine.

So maybe I will just use Kellogg's Amend w/ the existing soil for everything and then add 2" of organic mulch. I am way too stressed out over this. Not good for my health.

No-Clue

I took my clues from the neighborhood also when I first
tried putting the plants in the ground. Lots of them in
my area (Glendora) and there are many really big ones
out there.

In Hawaii, there is very little real dirt. Most dirt is an inch
or two thick and then lava rock. One place I know doesn't
have any dirt at all. Just lava rock. And there's dozens
of plumies by the side of the road.

Plumeria thrive in Hawaii growing in rocks. Here's a shot I
took in 2008 in Hawaii. This is new land, only a few years
old. Look what's growing.

We're headed back to Hawaii next month and plan to go
and try to find that tree. Got the general area, but there's
about a mile of what you see above. Nothing but black
lava. Kind of hard to pinpoint a location. It all looks the same.
Acres and acres of it. It is by a path though.

I figured if one can grow there, I can grow them in my crummy
dirt I have. So I brought a bunch of them home, rooted them
and then stuck them in the ground. No amendment, no
topsoil, no compost, no nothing! They're doing wonderful.

If they are rooted, they will grow.

Good luck.

When I said that was new land in that picture, I really meant it.
That lava flow came down there in 1990. It don't come
much newer than that.

Digging a hole and amending it could cause some problems. Here they usually put in french drains to prevent having root rot. If amending the soil they also expand that hole to 2 to 3 times the size needed, but even then they they like raised beds.