I agree that it is flowers that immediately draw people to a garden. Here, the front garden is the sunny space most suitable for flowers so it is the showy, flowery 'public' face of the garden and is planted for both our enjoyment and the enjoyment of neighbours and passers-by. It definitely draws people to the property - many neighbours comment on it and/or stop by to take a closer look. A flowery garden projects a friendly feel I think - in part, no doubt, because you're frequently out there working in it so it's easy for people passing by to engage you in conversation! The design aspects I try to impose on the flowery garden are through things like color selection, layout, and choice, design and placement of 'ornaments' (e.g. sundial) and structures (e.g. bench, arbour and obelisks/tuteurs). The shady backyard is private and more deliberately/obviously designed. Flowers are still important there but they take more of a secondary role. What has always irritated me is the implicit - and sometimes explicit - assumption that an interest in/desire for a flowery garden implies a lack of interest in/concern for or knowledge of good design.

Like you, I wanted a berry hedge. I decided to plant them along a road shoulder, so that I could just walk along the road and pick berries without getting bitten by copperheads or rattlesnakes. Twice, copperheads have crawled over my boots or snapped at me while I was picking berries in the fields. The road shoulder was an ugly miux of rubble, rocks and clay, so I dumped leaves and brush over the rocky mess and made dirt. Then I planted currants, blueberries, raspberries and gooseberries, and I let wild blackberries stay. Turns out, the red currants LIKED the ugly rocky clay mess and did not do so well in the black humus dirt I made. All the berry plants are doing "okay", but not thriving. Also, I made three mistakes with the raspberries: I moved wild raspberries out from under a giant walnut tree because I thought they were trying to ramble their way into the sun. Later I read that raspberries LIKE being under trees, if it shades them from hot afternoon sun. I tried to weed all of the yellow coneflower (Rudbeckia lacinata) out of the raspberry patch. It turns out, they are perfect for each other. The coneflowers don't even start to grow until after the raspberries have berries. When the coneflowers bloom, honey bees go crazy, so that's a plus for them. Also, they have a marvelously strong stalk with a fork, and this FORK becomes a perfect support for the raspberry canes! Last fall, I broke the tops out of the dead weed stalks, and helped the raspberry canes into the forks. Right now, the canes are loaded, since I pruned them back in winter to force them to make berries instead of ramble. I moved some wild raspberries to part of the road that caught water draining down the mountain. Water stood in the road in winter, and it drowned the berries: They do not like wet feet. I question whether or not your servicebery will grow under the tree canopy. When I saw wild serviceberry, it was growing all alone on top of a cliff! I haven't heard about these irrigation ditch hedges before. Is this a common practise in permaculture? Areyou trying to imitate the seep on a cliff or something? (I read that sandstone cliffs hold water, and that's why water seeps out of the base of these cliffs. Blueberries grow on top of them here, even though they appear to be "dry" cliffs.) If not, why are you irrigating? Isn't that a really artificial practise? I mean, irrigation has drained the aquifers in the midwest , so why are you interested in irrigating? Are you diverting water or it there naturally? I guess you can tell I haven't read much about permaculture. [I read Holmgren's book, that's all.] But I am really, cincerely curious why you would irrigate and call it permaculture. It seems artificial to me, any irrigation. I don't water anything. If it won't grow where I plant it, I move it. Instead, I am tryiung to add humus to the soil to make it hold water better. But ifyou are trying to imitate a sandstone seep, then it makes a little sense. I do collect rainwater, but I keep it covered so the mice and bugs don't drown in it, and I only use it rarely.

OT: I'm still trying to figure out the difference between "permaculture" and "homesteading." I thought I had it until I visited this forum. It seems that many people use these terms somewhat interchangably to describe 'self-sufficiency' and 'living off the land' (this was what I thought homesteading meant). My understanding was that Permaculture was a style or method of farming/gardening/growing your own food. I was defining permaculture, in my own head, as a symbiosis or synergistic way of "growing" food (both plant and animal). Is this incorrect? Homesteading and Permaculture practices certainly seem to intersect, but my thinking was that they had two different motives or goals that drove their philosophy? Back to the topic: I think your topic of conversation is a good one, and is very important for those of us that 'dream' of a self-sustaining way of life. When people 'dream' of just about anything, they tend to think about only the good/fun/easy things that interest them and tend to forget or -simply not know of- the difficulties inherent in making that dream a reality. In a dream of this magnitute (moving back to the land-homesteading?), costs MUST be one of the primary considerations. All residences, regardless of grandure or simplicity, will need repairs: roofs leak and need repair and eventually replacement, plumbing problems occur and need repair or updating, storms break tree branches that fall on your house or automobile, termites, rats, roaches, or bacteria/fungi come to call and eat your home/food stocks/seeds/plants. The need for money is inevitable, in my opinion. I finally bought a house, so I'm one step closer to self-sufficiency. It's a fixer-upper with a low mortgage that I am paying down as quickly as I can, but I've done little but shell out money for repairs since we moved in (almost two years ago). We are pretty handy, but we have no electrical or plumbing experience so that expertise had to be paid for. Even if you are a jack-of-all-trades, there are still the costs of repair supplies and materials, so I just don't see how anyone could hope to sustain themselves and their property with no money (not even mentioning property taxes). Someone said, earlier in this thread, that money was a substitute for having friends. I agree that having friends to help out certainly reduces the need for money, but as someone else pointed out, you can go too far with this and make your friends feel resentful. I agree with the poster who said that if I need to borrow a tool more than three times a year, I need to buy it for myself (and I wish my neighbors agreed with it too). How many times have you had a tool not returned or returned damaged, and had to shell out money to replace it? One of my biggest concerns with permaculture/homesteading(?) has to do with money. "What happens when I get too old or infirm/injured/pain-ridden to do all the things needed to sustain myself?" Surely people think about this when they 'dream' of going back to the land, don't they? What will you do when you can no longer climb on the roof to repair it yourself, cut down trees and chop wood to heat your home, or garden and can/put-up your produce when it all comes ready to harvest at the same time? Do people just work until they build-up a nest egg large enough to sustain them in the event of injury/old age? Seems like they don't, because many, many people are doing this at a young age, and unless all of them are making extremely high wages it's just not likely that they've all saved enough both for inevitable repairs AND infirmity as well as supporting themselves as they save. What do you do about medical insurance? Do you just figure you will stay healthy because you have gone 'back-to-nature' and you're eating home-grown foods? Do you just close your eyes and pray that you won't get sick or diseased, then push it from your mind? What do you do about clothes? I'm a frugal person and don't have expensive needs/tastes, but I will not even consider making my own underwear or socks. Making them would involve entirely too much time, skill, and materials when I can go to the local Walmart and buy a 6-pack of Hanes underwear for around $6, and a 6-pack of socks for about the same price. Even the most thrifty person has to have new underwear and socks once in a while...and you need money for that (whether you make your own or buy them). And what about shampoo, dish washing/clothes detergent, deodorant, analgesics (ibuprofen, acetaminophen, aspirin), antibiotic ointment, alcohol, peroxide, vinegar, toilet paper, bandaids, tampons, cold/alergy medicines, tea, coffee, sugar, flour, etc? Some of these things can be fashioned out of on-hand materials, but most are cost prohibitive to make ourselves. I mean no disrespect to anyone, nor am I trying to be flippant about this issue. I just don't see how anyone can NOT plan on needing money, and not just start-up money, because there are some things that will be needed that CAN'T be bartered for (Doctors, Lowes, Home Depot, and Walmart won't barter with you ... they want cash or credit) When I read that people expect to live with no money, I wonder what they are really thinking/dreaming about. Are they really interested in SELF-sefficiency or are they expecting to have an extended family of friends, neighbors and the community do for them what/when they cannot? Maybe someone should let the friends and neighbors in on this plan?

My buddy Jack has the equipment and science to do some wonderful things with plumeria (and others). But most of us don't have the tools or background to do the same. Despite that, we get plumeria to bloom, so don't despair. First, remember that seedlings usually don't bloom for at least 2 years, and usually three or more. Newly rooted cuttings probably won't bloom the first year. Both of those statements are dependent on the variety as some will bloom sooner than others. Some will develop inflos on a branch six inches long, while others need 12-18" or more before blooming. While my growing conditions are different from yours, my plants still go through a dormant period and most shed all their leaves. When night temps get around 50 +/-, they go outside for the spring and summer. Some will develop inflos by June, while others wait until August/September. I do not subscribe to the "high middle number" philosophy of promoting blooms. I feel a healthy plant, given proper, balanced nutrition regularly will develop inflos readily. What you can do to help your plants is to set up conditions in the cellar to keep them more active over the winter and jump start them for the spring. Consider getting a heat mat(s) to provide bottom heat. (Although you stated the cellar stays between 60 and 65, so the mat may not be necessary.) Replace the standard fluorescent bulbs with grow lights. You don't have to go to the expense of commercial grow lights. You can buy full spectrum tubes at many home centers. Try to place the lights close to the plants' tops. Put the lights on a timer to give the plants at least 12 hours per day. But even without those changes, your plumeria will bloom. Just be patient. On another board, there are people in Canada who successfully grow plumeria and have blooms with even less outdoor time than yours. Mike