emme-dc: I don't recall seeing your name B4-welcome.

I agree with your idea of waiting a couple of years to see what happens. I'll comment though on what you have told us so far.

Hostas don't thrive on shade, but are shade tolerant. All hostas grow better with some sun. That may be the only difference in the growth rate between your two beds. If you in DC are anything like most of North America this year, it has not been a typical year and our hostas have not "behaved" normally either. Hostas usually unfurl in spring and then have a second flush of growth later in the year. It represents initial growth from last years stored energy and 2nd growth from this years new energy, absorbed from the sun, etc. Apparently trhe 2nd flush needs plenty of water. With the drought, even though I'd watered, I was having no 2nd flush until I'd had some nice rains. The 2nd flush came so late the new leaves never attained full size B4 the fall die-back. But in spring my hostas will be larger as the new eyes are developing further over winter.

I hope that helps you understand what you might be seeing. It sounds like other than the critter problem you spoke of, your beds are in pretty good shape. But you might expect your hostas in the more shaded bed are a season behind those in the sunnier bed. You also didn't tell us what kind of hostas. If you have been following this forum for a while, think of what peeps here have said about hostas with a lot of white in their leaves being slower growing than the greener ones and how they would benefit from more sun. The more chlorophyll the more rapid growth normally.

Keep us posted and we love pictures. Like they say, whoever THEY are, a picture is worth a thousand words.

Les

emme,

You can grow Hosta in full shade. They will tend to grow slower. They will have larger leaves and the clumps won't be as full. You didn't talk about watering at all, so I'm guessing you didn't give much, if any, supplemental water. Providing supplemental water especially in the hotter months of the summer will help your plants a great deal. Also, you didn't mention what is providing the shade for that "super-duper shady" bed. Certain trees like Norway Maple, Silver Maple and many conifers have dense surface roots and provide competition for water and nutrients for Hosta. Additional water, especially over the entire area will help with that also.

If your plants continue not to do well with a lot of watering then by all means move them to a new spot. If a plant doesn't do well then keep on trying different spots. I hope this helps.

Steve

If the deep shade is coming from your own trees, you can remove some of the lowest limbs to get a little more sun. If tree roots are the problem, try using containers or plant in Spin Out bags. The bags are hard to find; you'll do best searching on-line. Also hostas will survive in fairly dry shade, but they're happiest with LOTS of water and some fertilizer.

My sympathies on the ferns. Something devoured mine this year, too. First time anything has bothered them. Next year they'll all get sprayed with Liquid Fence.

I can't think of anything that grows well in dry shade. Epimedium is supposed to, but mine didn't grow at all until I moved it to a moister hosta bed.

emme,

You should also consider the hosta you are planting if you have deep shade. Hosta with dark colored leaves are high in chlorophyll and can more effectively utilize lower levels of light for synthesis.

The lighter the leaves and the increased amount of variegation will lessen the ability of a hosta to grow or even survive in low light conditions. Deep green, deep blue hosta do well in the shade, lighter greens and yellows need more light. Thicker leaved dark colored plants can tolerate more sun as they hold more moisture (much like a sedum does) in their more robust leaves.

If you have planted lighter colored or variegated hosta they should be moved to a sunnier location. Fill in the "holes" with darker plants you may have planted in more sun.

Descriptions of hosta as shade tolerant or sun tolerant ignore the fact that certain hosta need more shade and some need greater sun.

Proper choice of dark hosta will help in your "too shady" location. Good luck with your new garden.

Jon

madplanter is closest ...

the issue MIGHT BE the roots.. from the trees that cause the shade.. as much as the shade itself..

what trees are you trying to garden under???

ken

Hi emme-dc,

Welcome to the Hosta Forum. You are getting good advice from the pros, above, but I wondered also about what you say about the ferns. You know the D.C. critters better than the rest of us, but could it be possible that it's not animals but simply drought that has destroyed your ferns? Rats don't eat ferns and if you have gray squirrels, which are the most common in D.C., they like nuts, seeds, and spring bulbs, but they are not fond of ferns. On the other hand, ferns are even more dependent on moist soil than hostas are, and if (as several folks above suggest) it was the summer drought or competition from tree roots, your ferns are simply telling you that it's too dry here, and your hostas may be saying the same thing, just not quite as urgently.

Steve

Hi, everyone! I think I posted to this forum last spring when I was trying to choose plants to put in, and I did follow the advice you gave me then to go for less-variegated, darker leaved varieties. I'd have to go back and look at my notes, though, to tell you the names of what's there. Obviously I'm not a "real" hosta person!
So, as to what's shading that spot: a house, a deck, a fence, and a nearby apartment building. Oh, and a few bradford pear trees. And a couple of blue atlas cedars. Even if there were no trees at all, it would be pretty shady. But the trees do make it worse. We've reduced them once before and will probably do it again in a year or so. It made a huge difference. But those trees provide an important privacy screen from our neighbors, especially the lower branches (which are not very low). In certain seasons, at certain times of day, some direct sun sneaks in, but never much.
I actually watered quite a lot, since I'd put in so many new plants. I was pretty diligent about it. We also didn't have all that dry a summer here in the end. However I did slack off on the watering later in the summer when things seemed better established, so maybe it was an issue constraining that second growth. More likely, though, there just wasn't that much new energy gotten from the sun--that's my concern.
About the critters and the ferns, I just don't know what else can make all of the foliage on a plant just disappear overnight, or sever a frond from the roots, or drag a plant two feet from where it was planted. Drought for sure does not make that happen. Some of those brave, tough little ferns grew back new foliage two or three times, only to have it stolen away again.
I took a lot of pictures as the garden developed over the summer, and as soon as I figure out how to post them, I would be happy to. Thanks so much for your attention.

Thanks for the details, emme. Seems like you did good work. It is important to water during the summer months and even into the fall. In Japan Hostas get 60-70 inches of rain per year and much of that occurs during the summer months.

From your description of the ferns disappearing overnight it sounds like you may have voles. You may want to use one of these. It's called Big Snap E.

Bait it with peanut butter, put it under a plastic pot (you can cut a hole in the side) and see what you get.

Steve

"In Japan Hostas get 60-70 inches of rain per year and much of that occurs during the summer months."

Yes, that may be true for parts of Japan, but also understand that much of Japan is volcanic soil, which drains like crazy, unlike the clay in many of our States.

Hostas need air at their roots, not just moisture. They can live in a moving stream,(oxygenated) but not in standing water. If you can read a book in the light you have, then you should be able to grow hostas there. Sounds like you have critters gobbling them, since you are mostly up on the watering. A hosta that goes into an entire floppy wilt still has living roots..and can often be brought back to life with adequate water.

On the driveway...as THEY say.

-Babka

Don't underestimate the trees you have mentioned regarding shallow roots. When you give your hostas dillegent watering and fertilizer the roots of shallow rooted trees rush to grab it up. I have read that Bartlett Pears are shallow rooted. I am familiar with Eastern Red Cedar and they are not only terribly possessive of water, not only under the drip line. I have found roots from red cedars 50 feet or more from the dripline of the nearest tree.

Digging the initial holes you may have found few tiny roots, but during a season of little rain when you have watered, you could find the root area of your hostas choked among the tree roots in one season.

See what comes up in spring and if it is more than just simply new planting setback, etc. you might lift a slow performer and see what the roots are competing with.

Les

When I first established the beginnings of my shade gardens about 7 years ago, the hostas (and everything else) grew very slowly and in some cases not at all. I too had some trouble initially with ferns. After a couple of futile years with very limited results I decided to build an irrigation system that pumps water from a river.

Magicly all changed. The sprinklers run 20 minutes a day pumping river water that alos contains some nutrients from farm runoff - everything grows wayyyy better especially ferns and native mosses cover the walkways and any stones. I have noted as others have stated that heavily watered hostas grow faster with more sunlight but my shaded ones do fine even if growth is slower.

We do get reliable rainfall (about 35 inches a year) and are not subject to droughts nor do we get the heat that others complain of as it rarely reaches 90F here. But a heavy canopy of trees effectively prevents rainfall from reaching the ground essentially creating a desert like condition where very little would grow.

i havent read the rest... but you said:

The hostas seem to have escaped that fate, but they have not really flourished. They survived, but barely grew after their first spring growth.

==>> perhaps.. the only failure.. is your expectations ...

it take 3 to 5 years.. for a hosta to mature ... meanwhile growing a root mass to increase ...

90% of growth.. is the spring flush.. that's it.. barely anything else..

they do not grow like other perennials ...

so perhaps.. all that failed.. was you expecting more ... you come here.. see these 5 to 10 year old clumps.. go buy what is basically a babe.. and think.. in one year.. ipso presto.. you will have the same. .. i dont think so. ..

next spring will tell .. bigger than last.. you win... smaller.. you have other problems ...

ken

Perhaps it is true, that the trees are really reducing the rainfall in that area. I think I may put in a soaker hose next spring. Certainly the light rains don't get down to the ground as quickly under the trees. My successful bed (bed 1) is also under a tree, a large Kwanzan cherry tree. And shaded by a fence and a house. But it's a much brighter spot than bed 2.
I'm trying to attach some photos to this post. I can't figure out how to attach more than one, though. I have April and October shots for both beds. I wanted to show how the hostas in bed 2 are actually smaller (fewer, smaller leaves now than when they were first planted). In bed 1, everything grew over the summer.

In bed 2, here's the sorry condition I find. By the way, both these pictures were taken yesterday--gloomy, with the storm on the way, but before the rain started. You see the fall leaves on the ground.

Emme,

Hope you are doing OK with the storm. If those two trunks in the last picture are the cedars then I'm pretty sure you are dealing with root competition. The amount of shade is making it more difficult. But you should be able to grow Hostas in a spot like that. Personally, I would use a few spin out bags and see how that does. Link below.

Steve

Here is a link that might be useful: Root control spin out bags

Storm over, nothing but twigs and leaves fell in my neighborhood. I think last summer's storm knocked down everything that was weak--those winds were actually a lot more intense than what we got of the hurricane. Everything is well watered, now!

Those trees are Bradford Pears, and I don't recall much root around when I was planting. Still, I'm starting to believe the theory that I just need to get a lot more water down there. We'll see if it makes a difference next season. Thanks everyone for your help.