I dug up and bare rooted 'First Frost' that was engulfed with tree roots. I relocated it to another part of my garden. Its still alive - will see what happens next year.

DD

Removing some roots? Hmmm. I'd be very interested in responses concerning any root removal as well.

Don B.

I am going to be interested to see how this thread progresses

on one hand I think that I should not disturb roots when I transplant

however common knowledge tells everybody to spend the roots out when planting out of the pot

the very first bed that my wife let me plant here on my own I didn't do it - they were really big plants very full in the pot and I just dumped them in a hole in the ground very well prepared ground.

today a few years later they are some of the best plants in the garden

luck, ja, prolly

but I've gotten away with it for the next 5 beds that I've planted 2

would they have done better if I had teased the roots out 2 an umbrella over a mound of dirt first, dunno...

when the boss of this garden gets a new really new pot bound plant she cuts the bottom one inch right offa the bottom, OUCH! but so far she has more success than I do, even.

she has even trained me to lop off all the bushes and shrubs around here each year - darn it all, now they even grow better each year and I have to lop em off even more - this year some of the buggers re-bloomed and now i need to lop m agin, rats!

/waaaaaOff

hh

well ... if hillbilly is interested... may as well humor him ... lol ...

first... history ... ann kulpa was john kulpa's mommy ... if i recall ... i cant recall his famous hosta offhand... but it aint this one .... i am thinking edged/streaked and fragrant .... diana something=or=another??? ... anyway ... i think he was some teenager who hung around with bruce and pauline.. in the old 'hood ' ... and that is all i recall at this time ... and am not sure on the age comparison .... maybe he's younger than the old guy [thats cryptic isnt it.. lol...]

second.. and lets be very clear.. this hosta make GE look easy to grow... if you really want to avoid stress... just leave it on the driveway.. and run it over a few time.. and be done with it .... its the giant white center ... as usual ... that is the problem... also.. looking at the HL .. the plants that looked like they lived.. have small white centers.. which look nothing like the plant i saw in the day .... whats that all about.. may be another deal like GE.. where different versions came out of TC ...one being terminal... and one survivable ...

i did not see bruces version of how its done.. but he was the one who taught me.... so my thoughts should NOT be read to ever contradict his...

but i would NEVER intentionally remove roots.. ESPECIALLY the fine FEEDER ROOTS ... other than those that come off in the process of soil removal .... or the beating on the tree ...

i either... if i was near a hard surface.. grab the crown between my thumb and forefinger.. like i might be choking a chicken [keep your mind out of the gutter... i mean that literally] .... spreading the other fingers wide .... and semi-lightly but with authority .. scrape the hosta roots across the cement ... rotate 180 degrees.. repeat.. replant ...

out in the field... i would grab the leaves.. and whack it against a tree.. to remove the soil.. and replant.. whacking = scraping ... and there was nothing dainty about it ...

i think .. i bought an OS with lots of white... it died... somewhere along the way.. i think i got one or two TC .... and i do have a cemetery label out there.... i seem to recall just seeing it late this summer ...

sooo.. do NOT remove roots intentionally... give it a go.. and get rid of it this time next summer.. if its still underperforming..

i will check back to see if bruce agrees or not ... especially the history part.. but do know.. the older one is the prettier one.. lol ....

bottom line.. they are hosta.. not your babies.. discipline it.. and show it who's boss.... do not fear the process ...

thought i can still picture bruce in my yard about 1997 ... and lakeside kaleidoscope under-performing.. and me pointing at it.. and saying whats the deal.. and without batting an eye he said.. its too deep.. the shovel happened to be right there... i popped it out.. handed it to him.. he smacked it on the sidewalk twice.. and then scrapped it across the cement ... while i was pooping myself.. handed it back.. and said replant it.. at the right height.. and we moved on ... its still out there.... [now there is your mind picture for the day ... lol].. so take a deep breath.. and go for it ...

ken

Here is a link that might be useful: look at the differences.. the more center white.. the smaller the plant .... taking age into consideration ...

I am totally dumbfounded by Ken and bkay's conversation. I am on my third try for Great Expectations. Wont give up because it is just too beautiful - I gotta have one. On the other hand I bought my first Ann Kulpa last year. Didnt know it was hard to grow. Ken even states it makes GE look easy. Take at look at my progression:

2012 when I bought it

2013 one year later - growing like crazy

AND i never "ruffed up" this hosta, nor fertilized. Maybe there's hope I can successfully grow GE

i came up with a better analogy ....

remember an old small hand whisk broom ... treat your hosta as such ....

no major force.. just do some hand sweeping ...

leafy.. that is one nice hosta .... and a lot more white than the ones at the library... go figure...

and its very close to my recollection of the original plant.. because after all.. thats the idea behind OS ... [tom schmid had john kulpa's original plant in his jackson MI nursery ....]

and NEVER complain.. that you win one.. that others lose ...

ken

Here is a link that might be useful:

Zone 5 doesn't hurt anything.

bk

And bkay... " (I've been listening to Ken talk about throwing hosta on the driveway for years now, but thought it was a figure of speech.)' I believe ken means that generally hostas are so easy to grow that you could toss one on the driveway and it would even grow there. This applies, of course, to many varieties, particularly those my husband and I refer to as landscape varieties, but not to the brats like Great Expectations and Ann Kulpa. I don't think they'd grow in the driveway... but then again... who knows? We've got trees growing in cracks in almost solid rock. It's pretty much the same thing, don't you think?

Kulpa is credited with Diana Remembered. Which is a lovely fragrant hosta doing beautifully in my garden still.
I got it early 2012 from Naylor Creek. I also got Ann Kulpa, and my experience with it is similar to BKays.

Here is Diana Remembered on Sept 18, 2013

And, I've considered before what Ken says about the driveway treatment, and not treated the hosta gently when repotting the ROOTS....just took care with the petioles and the leaves. But not on the driveway. On the potting bench. I also removed any mushy looking roots before I repotted it. In a couple of cases, I dosed them (when bare rooting or when just repotting) with Sevin dust to keep down the ants, which seek a drier location in the pots after our intense downpours. They aerate the roots, like they do around roses.

Rootbound things, I will sort of do what Hillbilly says the Boss does....cut off the bottom or else tease it out, use my hand to crumble the ridge of soil and roots around the bottom rim....because there is usually a big dimple in the middle where soil or potting medium has flushed out the bottom drain hole and it is hollow. But that is not actually cutting it. I'm just pulling them free to redirect outward into the new potting mix. Of course, you can take a water hose and blast the old soil away before you tease the roots, and being careful you don't lose too many roots in the process.

Some of them I go so far as to shape them as I do a wet mop, which I twirl to fan out the mop threads, and I place them on top of a cone of soil, and begin topping that off with more soil which anchors it nicely. With divisions from mature clumps, I may have only roots on one side, and I try to lead them to circle the interior. With those, I am using a bamboo cane inserted on the blank side to help stabilize the hosta until it can stand on its own. Actually, the bamboo makes a good stake for a name tag if I choose to slot it on the top.

Now, I have holly fern which HAS grown out across a brick patio....it made its own soil with rotting leaves. So if there is enough leaves beneath a hosta when it sends up a new eye, which is attached to the main plant in the ground at the edge of the driveway, I'm sure that new eye would grow.

After all, hosta are survivors. And, they know what they are doing. Which is a big help to me, since I definitely don't know squat. :)

pauline banyai.. of bruce and gold standard fame ... ran her whole business on the driveway ....

the cliche is an homage to her .... as she grew everything ... wait for it.. on the driveway ....

ken

I swear there was a post I read yesterday where Bruce is talking about removing the fine roots. I've looked for it everywhere and can't find it. He also mentioned beating them up.

Maybe I dreamed it.

bk

You weren't dreaming. Scroll down for both posts . . .

Here is a link that might be useful: Link

BK, were you perhaps reading my thread on Twilight that I posted on Friday? Therein Bruce said this:

"I would take those root masses and beat them severely, within an inch of their lives!
Actually spread those feathering roots out so they can grow independent of one another, not tightly intertwined.

I will frequently cut with a bleached very sharp knife a percentage of those roots off the crowns JUST to stimulate bigger and newer root growth.

What may be happening is the small root hairs are doing well but not allowing more mature ones to come through - need to provide the space now for sustainable root and crown growth or the crowns will eventually suffer from stress from dryness (young roots have small mass/water-holding) and dieback."

I have provided a link in case this was what you were referring to.

Here is a link that might be useful: Twilight

Well, I had Ann Kulpa back in April 2012, and it is smaller now than then. The picture below has it with Erie Magic to the left and Sam Spade at the bottom of the picture. Both of those arrived in the same order.

And I'm wondering how in the world is Ludisia faring so well with his white centered hosta, which he loves so dearly. He's got his work cut out for him. I am a more slap-dash gardener than he is, and I know it shows, but like Popeye says, "I yam what I yam." But I love a well cared for garden such as Ludi will wind up with.

Yes, that is exactly what I'm asking about. How much root do you remove? How do you know when to give your hosta that treatment?

I'm hoping Bruce will elaborate.

bk

we will wait for bruce...

but my interpretation of the above .. is some monster mass of roots with chocking amounts of fine roots...

i am thinking bushel basket medusa like root mass ...

your piddly little thing isnt going to have enough roots to withstand sacrificing any of them.. IMHO ...

go to the old post... click his name ..... on his members page.. EMAIL him a link to this post... if you want to make sure he comes soon ... i dont think he sits around watching GW like most of us ...

if i am wrong.. i am wrong ...

or.. dig it up.. snap a pic.. lightly repot it.. and let him see what you are working with specifically.... and then go repot it properly after his opinion ...

ken

Ken, it's the overall theory I want to know about. Ann Kulpa is not an issue (you solved that by reminding me she has a large white center). It's the theory and how to apply it that I want to know about.

Inquiring minds want to know.

I'll email him.

bk

He doesn't have an email address on his member page.

bk

I'm following this thread with interest as I too, have an AK...which I love. It is only a year old but lucky for me, growing really well...similar size as "leafy's" :-). ...maybe it's our cooler zone??

Before your post, BK I had no idea it might not be a good grower for everyone.

Ken, great anecdotes in your commentary! Sure is nice for us newbies to learn more history about Bruce and yourself and your collective hosta knowledge.

Waiting with anticipation for Bruce to weigh in so you can figure out what's going on with your Ann Kulpa, BK.

i emailed him ...

ken

i heard back from him.. from AUSTRALIA ...

said he is working down there.. for 3 months.. and has intermittent internet ...

so i would recommend simple repotting..

you can always do the root surgery in spring ...

i dont know if i would do it in dormancy .... i like things healed.. before such

ken

Thanks, Ken.

bk

What's all the fuss about removing roots from a tissue culture plant that needs root pruning?

Yes, Ken's method of freeing the root mass with force can be illustrated many ways, but the goal is to open up those roots to air and moisture movement so they will grow into hardier roots.

Those fine hairs are good for getting the plant started but they will not provide the required nourishment for the needed extended plant growth to further establish new leaves, blooms, more crowns, etc.

The other reason to smack the roots or rough them up is to make new nodes for the roots to grow - force them if you will.

Older hosta clumps will have dead root hairs where the roots either rotted off or just withered and dried up over the years.

Any time you clean up old iris or daylily roots - same as hosta, you cut the old dead stuff off and bleach the whole root mass.

Take a clean sharp knife and remove dead or diseased roots all the way back to the crown, Scrape off any tissue that is grey or red or brown from rot or disease or deadness.

Yes, I am currently somewhat limited in internet but will clear up as much as possible.

And I have a big Doberman watching my hosta garden back home while away. Those who visited my mother's gardens or mine may recall Banyai gardens have been protected by Dobermans for years.

Ann Kulpa was John's mother (hope she is still alive). John and my late mother Pauline Banyai had many fun days talking and hybridizing hosta in her garden. John was a fantastic hybridizer for showy and fragrant hosta.

John's most famous hosta introduction was Whirlwind, which was a sport they discovered one day.

Yes, Ken is correct that my mother's hosta business was based on our dividing her stock plants in early Spring, potting the healthy divisions and growing them out on the driveway.

This growing practice was before tissue culture, when they began to do the same, only never growing them out in the ground.

You can imagine how beautiful our driveway looked with 2-3000 4-6 inch pots in the driveway for 6-8 weeks until they were sold at the Royal Oak Farmer's market and also the Eastern Market.

One Eastern Market May Flower Day we sold 7 vanloads of hosta!

Ken's story about planting too deep early in his hosta life is true; I have helped others like that in too many gardens to remember

Bruce

Thank you for the information and the history, Bruce. One of the many reasons I haunt this forum is for such wonderful tidbits.

And, this is a good place to remind everyone about the watchdog...how many hosta maniacs might face temptation to grab a shovel and jump the fence while you're away! :)

(Kidding, of course!)

bump

ken

My series of pictures with H. Venus needing a new pot showed a lot of root mass. I did not cut off any roots, but I certainly teased it out with my fingers and a hand rake. Then, I scraped the resulting mop across the top of a metal mesh patio table. Sort of like a washboard treatment. For good measure, I shook it a lot too.

When things are so tight, the roots are locked together, I have to pull off that bottom inch or so, like Hillbilly says the Boss does. Plants I buy at a local nursery just about always need this treatment....what I find is nothing inside except a few pieces of pine bark, some few grains of sand, and ROOTS. So that left me not much choice except man-handling the plant.

I'm glad you bumped this up, Ken.

About cutting roots. I know from reading articles and books about flowering trees and bushes like Rhododendrons and fruit trees that partial root pruning produces more flowers. I also used that technic. That seems to increase the will to survive of the plant, sets more flowers and fruits, probably also more roots and increases vigor. Bernd

While looking up garden quotes for my blog and column, I came across this one in perennialresource.com/quotations:

"Hosta could probably live on the driveway, unless you pay more than 50 bucks for them..then they will die on the way home"---Ken Adrian

You're famous, Ken. Along with a lot of good company like Robert Rodale, Albert Einstein, Kipling, Monet, Thomas Jefferson, and a lot of "Authors Unknown", lol!

Sandy