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mia_blake

Railroad Tie proximity?

MiaOKC
12 years ago

Hi - beginning to work on getting a new veggie patch installed at our new house and I have a siting question. I plan to do a raised-row type format again (starting with a fairly flat ground level space and pulling soil from the paths to make a piled up planting row). The area I am working in is kind of hidden behind our storage shed, with a stockade fence boundary to the north, the shed anchoring the southeast corner, and open air (no light impediments) east and west. A bit to the west is a chain link fence with a sprawling plum or peach tree, so might provide some relief from west-setting sun cooking my plants. I plan for a 15' x 15' plot to start. Since our lot slopes down to the west, I will make a mini-retaining wall (edging) out of old bricks, to sort of terrace the plot about 6 inches tall on the west side and give me a more flat area to plant and avoid water and soil run-off.

On the north boundary of the veggie plot, a stockade fence is built on top of railroad ties. The ties (and fence, for that matter) are pretty old and weathered, not black or dripping. I'd thought I could use the fence as a support to do some trellising for cukes, melons, etc. What do y'all think about the railroad tie being at the base of my trellis or the veggie bed abutting the ties? I'm not using it to fill in with soil like a raised bed, but am a little concerned about the safety issue near edibles. To be clear, ties are on top of the ground.

I do realize a photo would be much more helpful than this long-winded explanation. If I can, I'll shoot one in the morning and post to the thread. Thanks!

Comments (17)

  • Okiedawn OK Zone 7
    12 years ago

    Mia,

    From a safety standpoint, it is recommended that food crops not be grown near creosote-treated lumber regardless of the lumber's age. While the ties are not currently black or oozing, you have no way of knowing how much creosote has leached into the garden beds during the years those railroad ties have been there.

    So, would I plant anything edible near them? No. Never.

    If it were my property and I found creosote ties on it, I'd remove them. If you handle them in any way, you're supposed to wear protective gear.

    I have no idea how I'd feel about the soil where they've been sitting, but I suspect I wouldn't feel very comfortable growing edibles within several feet of that area. Cresote has proven toxicity and it is considered a probable carcinogen.

    You can google and find lots of complicated scientific explanations about the dangers of creosote-soaked railroad ties, but I've just linked a brief article from "Organic Gardening" magazine that sums it up pretty well.

    It's your garden and you can do what you want, but I'd think hard about raising any edible crops near railroad ties. For me, one of the bonuses of growing food is that you know what is, or isn't, in the food you're eating.

    Dawn

    Here is a link that might be useful: Creosote Railroad Ties and Gardening

  • MiaOKC
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    I don't know if the RR ties are mine to move, they are under the fence bordering our property and since we see the braces for the fence (not the "good" side) it seems like it's not our fence. What about planting ornamentals in the strip near the RR tie and veggie crops further out? Can't find anything that says how far from RR tie you should go with edibles, just lots of conjecture that leaching is done directly beneath RR tie.

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  • OklaMoni
    12 years ago

    Mia, good reason to go and meet your new neighbor. Explain your desire to plant "tomatoes" and to even be able to share... but your worry about the toxin of the rr ties. Ask, if they mind, if you take them out.

    I would also consider digging the soil out in that area, and buying some top soil. If you can get it by the truck load, it is a whole lot cheaper than the bagged stuff from the box stores.

    I would plant some green crops and mow them off, and discard the first season at least. Green crops are usually tilled under, but if you remove them, it could be helping cleaning up the soil.

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  • MiaOKC
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Good idea, Moni! I actually investigated a little more this morning, and saw the railroad ties are on the INSIDE on the fence on my side, so I presume they are mine. Some areas have a partially buried tie and a full one stacked on top (so at least 2 ties high) and I think they may be doing some soil retention work, or maybe were put in to keep dogs/cats from going under the fence. Maybe someone had a digger.

    I'll investigate possible removal of the ties and replacement with concrete blocks (I see this has been done against at least one other section of the fence further down). Perhaps a few feet of border of ornamentals against the blocks to buffer that soil from the veggie garden. I am having 4 yards of Garden Ready trucked in, but only to amend existing soil, not to totally replace possibly contaminated soil. If I can't remove the RR ties, I may leave a few feet of grass between the fence and the veggie site and just give up on the idea of trellising to the fence.

    There are several bunches of onions/garlic planted a foot or two from the RR tie from the previous owner, and I planned on replanting those after I created the veg bed, but I guess I will throw them out.

    Does anyone know of any soil test, maybe from OSU, that could test for soil contamination from creosote leaching from the RR ties?

  • miraje
    12 years ago

    Is creosote something you can test the soil for? From what I've read it doesn't sound like the extension offices test for it, but there are places they might be able to recommend. If you can test for it, I would take samples at various depths and distances from that fence and have each sample tested to see if creosote is present in the soil. More specifically, if it's present in some of the samples and not others, then you know how far it has leached from the fence and can plant some kind of buffer that might help to filter out possible contaminants from runoff whenever it rains to make sure it doesn't get into your garden. At least for me, with a toxin like that I'd feel better knowing exactly what I'm dealing with in the soil.

  • helenh
    12 years ago

    I would plant ornamentals by the ties and put your garden in a few feet unless that is more of a problem than moving the ties. Removing the ties will be a lot of work and you don't know how much soil needs to be dug out. The ties may be serving a purpose; you may some day have a neighbor with a dog digging in to your place or animals coming in under the fence. The fifth response in the thread below makes the point not to spread that soil around your yard.

    Here is a link that might be useful: creosote discussion

  • seedmama
    12 years ago

    If I were seeking a soil test for creosote, I would call DEQ, Department of Environmental Quality, and see if they could point me in the right direction.

  • Okiedawn OK Zone 7
    12 years ago

    Mia, I am sure there are labs somewhere in this country that could test soil for contamination, but I don't know that it would be a cost-effective process. The last time I read something about someone having their soil tested for contamination, the tests cost several hundred dollars (and did find serious contamination). In that case, they didn't know what they were looking for, so that may mean they had to do a lot more tests than a lab would do if you already knew which substance for the lab to look for in the soil.

    So, instead of spending the money on soil testing, I'd spend the money removing the railroad ties and replacing them with something else. Then I'd work on soil remediation to try to return the soil to good health.

    When you have chemical contamination in your soil, part of the solution is to use an activated charcoal type product like Zeolite. Zeolite is not the only such product, just the one I'm most familiar with because it was available for purchase in Fort Worth when I lived there.

    In addition to the use of an activated-charcoal product like Zeolite, the other remediation efforts would involve adding organic matter to the soil to help break down the creosote. Biologially-active soil can help break down harmful substances into less harmful compounds, especially after you've already used Zeolite or a smilar product to begin the process.

    When I first began to transition from conventional gardening to organic gardening in the 1990s, it was Howard Garrett's books, newspaper column and radio show that helped me make the switch. I know he has recommendations on his website that will tell you how you can fix soil that is contaminated with creosote, so I am going to find and link that page from his website below.

    Good luck,

    Dawn

    Here is a link that might be useful: Detox for Creosote-Contaminated Soil

  • TraceyOKC
    12 years ago

    ugh...I have railroad ties around my garden. :-( We are planning to take out 2 sides for expanding. Darn. DH put them in about 20 years ago... when we were in our 20s. The two sides we were planning on leaving are retaining the dirt.

    Now I am going to have to do more research. Maybe they arent authentic railroad ties... alot of rotting and crumbling has been going on. They are definately big and heavy but I dont remember them being oily or black. We will see if DH remembers more about their origin.

    Maybe the new flowerbeds in the backyard will have to be veggies and I can raise flowers in the old garden! LOL

  • OklaMoni
    12 years ago

    Mia, don't keep grass between the veggie bed and the rr ties. It will end up creeping in to your veggie bed all the time. Put ornamentals there instead.

    Moni

  • MiaOKC
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    For now, I had all the grass between the RR tie and the bed dug out, and plan to put bricks/pavers there to create a 2 ft wide pathway behind the bed and thus a few feet of soil in a "no man's land" area before you get to veggie's root zones.

    Ultimately, we will try to remove the ties entirely and replace with something that will keep diggers in other yards restrained, maybe cement blocks or retaining wall pavers. If we end up wanting to plant something in that zone, I will work on remediation of any contamination, but in the absence of conclusive testing to determine if there is contamination or ability to tell when the contamination is cleared up, I will just focus my efforts in a zone away from the potential problem.

  • slowpoke_gardener
    12 years ago

    Mia, I am glad you are focusing on another area. My daughter's garden has railroad ties on 4 sides. They are newer ties than most because her husband worked for the railroad and had access to better ties. They both have serious health issues now. I doubt that the ties caused them, but I still have to wonder. I will ask her not to use her garden any more for food and I will share my produce with her. If she feel like she still wants a garden I will build her one in another area, up hill from the ties. It is not fun to watch you child battle cancer.

    Larry

  • MiaOKC
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Larry, I'm sorry to hear of your daughter's troubles. It's good you are there to help her and keep her supplied with homegrown produce. I understand from my neighbor that organic leafy greens are very important to her in her own post-cancer diet, so maybe you could set your daughter up with a pot of good lettuce!

  • Okiedawn OK Zone 7
    12 years ago

    Mia, It seems like a well-thought-out plan to me. As soon as I read the words "railroad ties" in your original post, I felt sick to my stomach because they are such a problem.

    Larry, I am so sorry to hear your daughter is battling cancer. I hope she wins the battle. I know you will be there by her side helping her every step of the way.

    Remind her that many of us are cancer survivors and we live full and happy lives once we have put our cancer battles behind us and gotten on with living the rest of our lives.

    Dawn

  • slowpoke_gardener
    12 years ago

    Thanks, Dawn and Mia, My daughter had a pretty good prognosis but her husband does not. They live in an old horse barn, it is very pretty and large. Many of the treated poles are incased in cedar, but not all. The house in a maintenance nightmare, there is just too much for woman to keep up. I need to go over this afternoon and repair their water heater and order a pump for their indoor waterfall.

    Larry

  • Okiedawn OK Zone 7
    12 years ago

    Larry, They both have cancer? Oh, my. That is a really tough break. I understand what they are going through, having been through it myself and having a family member battling cancer now too.

    I cannot imagine what your daughter and son-in-law would do without you right now, and am glad you live close enough to them to be able to help them.

    Mia,

    The north-south or east-west issue is as old as the hills.

    I believe the technically correct answer is that in most cases it is preferable to run beds north-south to take full advantage of both morning and afternoon sun as the sun passes from east to west. When you plant this way, as the sun passes overhead, the plants are not shaded by the plants on either side of them. Taller plants like corn, tomato plants, pole beans, tall forms of okra, etc. should be on the north end of the garden so they do not shade shorter plants. However....

    We all live in the real world and have to take other factors into consideration.

    I consider the slope of the land to be the deciding factor in how to run rows if you are not on relatively level ground. So, for those of us gardening on a slope, I think it is better to run our rows sideways across the slope instead of up-and-down the slope. When you run your rows across the slope, you can reduce the impact of erosion.

    Someone like me whose garden slopes both from west to east and from south to north has to use creative bed placement to stop erosion as much as possible. I have most beds running east-west because that is what works with my slope, but some running north-south, also to reduce erosion. It isn't perfect, and I tinker with the layout from time to time, but I'm happy with it overall.

    For someone in a very exposed area where wind exposure causes lots of damage to the plants, those gardeners might choose to site the rows based on the direction from which their most damaging winds tend to come.

    For someone whose garden is in a yard with homes or other buildings, wooden stockade fences, trees, etc. nearby, a person needs to site their garden rows in whichever manner works best with the surrounding items that may case shade on the beds or funnel rain runoff onto them or whatever. In a new home, you partly have to guess at how this will work your first year. The sun and shadow patterns you observe at this time of year will not be the same patterns you'll see in summer.

    Now, having said all that, I sat here and thought about the gardens belonging to people on roads nearby and most of their rows run east-west. We all have different issues with terrain, but even the gardens I can think of that are on flat land or relatively flat land near us run their beds from east to west. I can think of only two that run north-south. You'd have to pick the brain of each individual to see why they choose to run the beds east-west or north south.

    In the one area where I have beds on relatively flat land, the rows do run north-south.

    Dawn

  • slowpoke_gardener
    12 years ago

    Dawn my SIL has Alzheimer's. My daughter really has her hands full. I dont know how she always seems so happy.
    Its about time for her to be home from work, I am ready to go help her.

    Larry

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