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dandy_line

100,000 Buckthorns to kill

I thought I would open this subject on my system for killing Buckthorn here in Mn. I have been working on my 3 acre plot for 5 years now trying to kill it all. There were about 50 large trees and many more small shrubs when I started. Cutting down the trees and shrubs opened up the canopy and subsequently, the plants suckered with 50 times more plants and the dormant seeds in the ground added thousandns more. So, my system now is to use strong doses of 2-4-d. I can get 65% 2-4-d at Fleet Farm for about $16/gal. Using a strength around 2%, I get the new growth in April and May before the native plants come up. This pretty well kills the new growth and most of the plant.

So, along with pulling by hand, digging with shovel, and dousing with 2-4-d, I estimate my total kill will be around 100,000 plants by the time I'm done(another 5 years, maybe).

Comments (771)

  • terrineff
    4 years ago

    gnomeabram : One know-it-all claimed seeds only viable 2 years and it's a quick project to knock out all BT. Corrected him on 5-6 year viability (subsequent post claimed some naturalists move that to ~10 years) and challenged "quick project". Numerous people then posted stories as to the issue of neighbors and bird droppings. You are not alone.

  • terrineff
    4 years ago

    Ah, new post from an actual BT restoration business owner:


    "I'm so glad there are so many people who care so passionately about our local native ecosystem to have this discussion! The use of glyphosate is a touchy topic, and I would like to share what I've learned. I operate Ed's Buckthorn Control, and we follow the City of Minnetonka's best practice, which is to use the minimum effective dose of glyphosate applied with a wick applicator like Buckthorn Blaster. This minimizes the exposure to the person applying and non-target plants. Glyphosate clings to soil until it is decomposed by microorganisms, unlike other popular chemicals, like Garlon (triclopyr) and Tordon (picloram), which are much more toxic and flow with water in the soil to potentially kill other plant roots. For comparison, we use about 2 ounces of active ingredient per worker per day when we are constantly treating buckthorn stumps. The major glyphosate exposure risk is from agriculture use and misuse, especially when weather conditions are not ideal. I attended a presentation by the U of M, which discussed the enormous amount of studies regarding glyphosate and harm to humans. It is mildly toxic, but there is very little evidence of correlation between glyphosate exposure and cancer. The International Agency for Research on Cancer lists cancer risks at this site: https://monographs.iarc.fr/list-of-classifications. Glyphosate is listed as less risky than drinking alcohol and eating processed meats. It is in the same risk category as being a hair dresser or eating red meat. All that aside, glyphosate is an important tool for invasive species control, and when used properly, it is very effective and low risk."

    dandy_line (Z3b N Cent Mn) thanked terrineff
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  • dandy_line (Z3b N Cent Mn)
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    Yeah-I've read that 5 year estimate too but I am a nonbeliever. If that's the average then the very last seed would go for 20 years, at least. Consider the bell curve. And, we need 100% kill not 99.9999 % or future generations will suffer again.

    gnomeabram , I don't think your neighbor situation is as bad as it looks. The ingress from them won't be nearly as bad as what you have now. And once you clean yours up, they will notice the stark contrast and will more than likely convince them they need to take action. That is until they find out the cost to hire it out. $10,000 per acre anyone?

  • gnomeabram
    4 years ago

    I'm hoping the combination of annual (hopefully less) spraying/dormant mowing will at least keep things in check. Looking at the bright side, it's a lot less work than the initial clear cutting. I spread seed of various sedges this fall in shaded areas, hopefully they can take hold when nothing else seems to.


    I have little hope for neighbors doing anything. This little corner of the world was once an oak opening / oak-hickory forest. The infestation in the neighborhood is at least 30 - 40 years old now, and combined with an un-checked deer population, most understories are firmly a monoculture of invasives. Buckthorn is pretty much the only screening left on many properties. Who is going to spend $10,000/acre to destroy their privacy?


    Luckily when I started removing buckthorn in the year 2000 I concentrated on areas with young oaks and hickories which are thriving today. I'd hate to see what this neighborhood looks like in another 50-100 years, when the original oaks and hickories reach end of life. I won't be around - but at least my yard might represent what things once looked like in the good ole days.

  • Pat & Bill Brown
    4 years ago

    My neighbors have yet to be inspired! At least, sufficiently enough that it shows on their property.

  • bill_g_wisconsin
    4 years ago

    My neighbor and I did a test between Tordon and glyphosate. Granted the sample size is just 1 buckthorn each. We had two almost identical buckthorns on our mutual fence line. We lopped both buckthorns (probably 1.5" diameter trees) at the 3 foot level, and applied Tordon to one, glyphosate to the other. The Tordon tree re-sprouted, the glyphosate one did not. I would not draw a conclusion from such a small sample size, but due to piclloram's (Tordon) persistence in the soil, I'm not going to use it. I'm very happy with the cut stump treatment with glyphosate. Unless I get some thickets growing back, I'll probably move forward with a lopper and paint marker with dyed glyphosate. Oh, and 2,4-D on the seedlings.

  • terrineff
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    Time to fire BT blog back up! Tom spent last two weekends on BT brush pile management, can really see difference in wetland buffer. dandy_line, I'd ordered 25 river birch bare roots from Carver Cty but re-reading your October post decided to add arrowwood and juneberry. Very excited to see how well 2019 BR transplants 'spring forth'.


    bill_g_wisconsin: Any advice as to best timing for pre-emergent Procainamide application? Also has anyone experience growing Northern Bayberry? Ordered some bare roots plus plan to buy several 3-gallon containers sold online to act form barrier on sunny, arid clay slope where weed grasses threaten to overtake struggling no-mow fescue area.

  • Bill Brown
    4 years ago

    terrineff, Am interested in more re: your river birch / arrowwood / juneberry design but am unable to find dandy-line's post to which you refer. Could you elaborate a bit?

    dandy_line (Z3b N Cent Mn) thanked Bill Brown
  • terrineff
    4 years ago

    Scroll up to top of comments (actually yours) time stamped '4 months ago', then click on "See 679 More Comments" link immediately above. Apparently this thread has gotten too long to fullly display (or more likely, Houzz modified upload capacity).

    dandy_line (Z3b N Cent Mn) thanked terrineff
  • dandy_line (Z3b N Cent Mn)
    Original Author
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    Edit: terineff posted just before this got out.

    Interesting, I couldn't find my comment about the shrubs either. As it turns out, the previous 11 years of postings have disappeared from here! I'll never know what sage words of wisdom I imparted to the group. Never ever.

    I will try to recap: In Mn, most counties have Soil and Water Conservation District which we all pay for through taxes. These SWCD's band together and buy shrubs/trees in large quantities and then sell back to us, very cheaply, about $30 per bundle of 25 bare root plants. Here is the Carver county SWCD link:

    https://www.co.carver.mn.us/departments/public-services/soil-water-conservation-district-swcd/programs-services/tree-program

    I see they had Tamarack this year too, a real looker in fall near a pond., but 25 maybe a bit too many on one property. I bought some 6 years ago and they are about 8' tall now and show nice yellow needles in fall. I like the selection they had, mucch better than my SWCD.

    Terineff, you will really enjoy those River Birch by the pond in a few years or so. And your neighbors more than likely will be jealous too. I suggest planting in clumps, as that's how they exist in nature. Two or three to a clump is nice.

    The Arrowwood Viburnum makes a nice berry plant, which the birds devour every last one on mine so I never get any seed. Not like my Cranberry bush which has seeds all winter long for Spring feeding.

    Juneberry prefers a dry arid environment so maybe not so good near the pond.

    All good choices. You will be happy you took the time now.

  • terrineff
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    dandy_line: You missed my reply to Bill by mere moments. Comments remain but accessed via 'More Comments' link atop. Appreciate tip on River Birch as I assumed formed clump on its own. Your Arrowwood moderate / fast grower? Red Feather@ A.V. selection bare roots planted 2019 did zip. Familiar with Blackhaw Viburnum which also seems quite desirable?

    Being 'multi-modal' property, Juneberry could be just the ticket for arid clay areas on generally in full-day sun on west slope. That site is hand-watered to establish 23 Carver Cty elderberry BRs. I see Juneberry tolerant of black walnut which is important as 40'-50' specimen at slope base. As can you imagine, during growing season I'm addressing squirrel handiwork in the form of undesired saplings.

    dandy_line (Z3b N Cent Mn) thanked terrineff
  • bill_g_wisconsin
    4 years ago

    @terrineff, last time I bought bare root river birch they were usually three trees in a clump when I bought them. They are just beautiful trees! No trouble with any diseases, and have such beautiful bark. They get big, too. Mine now are 25 years old, and quite large. I had to remove two in the front yard last year because they were always growing out into the power lines. Still have a bunch here, though. When they get big, they will get messy, dropping lots of small branches, so put them somewhere that it won't matter, or plan on picking up sticks.


    dandy_line (Z3b N Cent Mn) thanked bill_g_wisconsin
  • dandy_line (Z3b N Cent Mn)
    Original Author
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    Terineff: Sorry about your Red Feather dentatum not doing well. None of my shrubs do anything for about the 1st three years or so. Even potted ones seem take a long time to establish root systems so they can go forward. It would be nice to have instant greenery, but just not possible.

    My Arrow Wood is actually V. rafinesquinum, not dentatum. A slightly different variation on the same theme. They just naturally sprung up in my yard. It seems V. dentatum is only found to the south of here. I only just found that out in the past year or so. And Black Haw is not native here either and may be a risky bet because of that. Example: I bought some Paw Paws a few years ago but their tops continue to freeze off so not worth the time or money.


    Edit: looking back thru records, they were Black Haw Viburnums that freeze off, not PawPaws


    But, all Viburnums have beautiful spring flowers and loads of fall fruit so you can't miss with any of them. But I don't think they would be considered fast growing. But my Elderberries, Buckeyes and Balsam Fir, they rally take off.

    Bill-nice comments about the River Birch. Too bad you actually had to destroy some.

  • terrineff
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    Good info. River birch TB planted on BT-loaded slope tackled last fall (add to foliar control list) rising from pond. dandy_line, I'll take your experience to heart as attempt to be patient. What type(s) buckeye do you have?


    BTW, really sold on BR Northern Catalpa. We 'inherited' a NC too small to notice back in 2014; by 2018 had grown to 16'. Beautiful specimen tree with enormous, very striking leaves plus spring flowers. Majority BR planted 2019 attained 2.5' -3' height -- one I forgot I'd planted in BT thicket near pond nearly 5' !

    dandy_line (Z3b N Cent Mn) thanked terrineff
  • dandy_line (Z3b N Cent Mn)
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    Thanks for nice write up. Not sure what you mean by shorthand above "TB" or "BR"?


    See my Edit above, it is Black Haw Viburnum that freezes off up here, and generally not hardy.


    It looks like your inherited Catalpa is now 16' and flowers for you. Have you indulged yourself on the aroma? It seems they like a slightly moist site. It is all sand up here so maybe that's why they don't do so well. The ones at the Arb are in a very sunny dry spot.


    There is only one Ohio Buckeye that I know of. The European/Balkan version is called Horse Chestnut. I bet that any named variety would be a cross breed of some kind. Best to be careful. I know that my volunteers(id'd on Name That Plant forum) grow very fast when kept watered well during summer

  • terrineff
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    Sorry, TB = to be, BR bare root. As you were discussing shrubs thought possibly Red Buckeye. Deciding between varieties offered in city of Minnetonka's annual tree sale I've passed on Ohio Buckeye as read very difficult to transplant. Wish I'd ordered more than single Royal Star Magnolia last year (not offered 2020) ! http://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org/PlantFinder/PlantFinderDetails.aspx?kempercode=j210

  • dandy_line (Z3b N Cent Mn)
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    Ok, I got it. TB/BR-to be/bare root, duh. Thanks for the link to Red Buckeye. I've never noticed that one before. From SE Missouri but good to Z4, sounds too good to be true. It could work in your location, but many years of trial needed. Wonder if the U Arboretum would know about it in Mn.

    I take it you're having fun with your plants. Would be nice to see some more pics later on this year of your successes. I need to remind myself to do that also.

  • terrineff
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    Quick question to Milestone users. Have you applied means other than spraying? Solutions@ website where purchased claims , "Milestone is flexible in that it can be used in almost any treatment method such as foliar, spot, cut-stump, basal, side-trim, dormant stem". Believe could be superior lop-and-dab of 3'-5' BT saplings to Triclopyr.


    Hope everyone is well and getting outdoor exercise during these unprecedented times. My property is my therapy.

  • bill_g_wisconsin
    3 years ago

    Haven't tried it. Would you have to wait for July to get the sap flowing in the right direction?

  • terrineff
    3 years ago

    Triclopyr has worked all seasons when immediately applied to lopped cambium, hence my optimism. Solutions@ : "For best results, apply Milestone when plants are actively growing, which typically occurs early in the summer." Seems worth a shot. Now to guesstimate proper dilution factor...


    TechLine Invasive News: "Milestone has low risk of runoff in surface water compared to the current market standards. The runoff impact of Milestone® is mitigated by low use rate and rapid photolysis in water." Another huge plus.

  • gnomeabram
    3 years ago

    Seems like Milestone would be a great option for stump treatment, it's too bad you'll have to experiment to find the right concentration. I'd start with foliar spray concentration and see what happens, and keep doubling until you get results, then dial it back to find the happy medium. I'd try it myself but I've already eradicated everything big enough to try it on. I supposed that's a good thing!


    On a side note, I've noticed several homeowners in my neighborhood have been attempting in the last month to remove invasives in their woods, and none of them seem to be stump treating at all. Boy are they in for a rude surprise.


    I've mostly been working on garlic mustard eradication, for the gazillionth time. I thought I had it pretty much under control last summer, but it all came back last fall, and Milestone didn't faze it, so I'm back to glyphosate. I fear I have an endless seed bank.

  • terrineff
    3 years ago

    gnomeabram: TechiLine site referenced contains weed / herbicide / rate / timing chart (no BT info). Lists Garlon-4 Ultra as GM agent of choice. I had success in shady area using Milestone. Don't know if that's the difference as used glyphosate or 2,4-D + Triclopyr combo in sunny / part-shade areas. We've seen GM explosion in south viaduct area thought under control also. Bumper bedstraw crop in west slope wildflower field plus heavy clover infestation in the fescue. It's always something, no?

  • bill_g_wisconsin
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    Just wanted to pass along positive results of an experiment. Much of of my prairie area became choked out by canada goldenrod over the years. Other areas were choked out by split leaf coneflower. As much as I like those plants, they made the prairie planting a failure, because I needed the deep roots of prairie grasses to hold back the riverbank. The goldenrod and coneflower had shallow roots.

    Last summer about this time, I tried spraying some areas with MSM herbicide. At first, it looked like a failure, but I noticed later that the plants that I sprayed had not grown or flowered like the plants I didn't spray. This year, looking at the sprayed areas. it is all grasses - no goldenrod, no coneflower, and the grasses are looking healthy.

    For what it is worth...

    Bill

  • terrineff
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    Bill_G: Thanks for post. Updates always useful, hoped someone besides me would jump in. Can anyone identify Weeds 1 and 2? #1 shallow-rooted, multi-stemmed greyish-green leaves that overran bare root elderberry area planted 2019. #2 blankets open wetland buffer zones lacking buckthorn.


    Herbicide observations mixed. Applied Prodiamine 65 @ rate of 2 TBSP per gallon early May. Appears fairly effective against crabgrass, less so preventing quack and other nuisance grasses. Ineffective suppressing foxtail barley in county boulevard abutting our property. Milestone and Q4 Turf Plus don't touch it. Read Certainty (75.0% Sulfosulfuron) effective--has anyone used?


    gnomeabram: You are correct re: Milestone useless against GM. 2019 photo seems result of 'nuking error' using oz. rather than proper ml dilution. No carryover effect as GM now sprouting. M 1.5ml / gallon on county blvd has kept most broadleafs at bay though. Haven't yet tried Milestone as BT foliar treatment -- has anyone?





  • dandy_line (Z3b N Cent Mn)
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    Without a picture it's pretty hard to know what is over running your plants. I'm always fighting foreign stuff here, like Balkan Catchfly. But over time I am winning the battle.

    The Buckthorn battle is turning a corner for me at the Arboretum. It's getting difficult to find any groups of it anymore. I have to go farther into the remote areas in order to earn my keep. I'm going to start replanting a little niche area with some of my woodland plants. The BT is now gone in there and it has a nice population of Bluebead Lily already. So some nice Blue and Black Cohosh , Dogbane, and May Apple will dress it up.,

  • bill_g_wisconsin
    3 years ago

    Over the weekend, I was out in my yard messing with a few things - one was going after the creeping charlie. That has been hit or miss. There will be two plants next to each other, one dies one laughs at me. Using Speed Zone (2 oz per gal) + triclopyr (1oz per gal) and a glug of MSO as a wetting agent. Along the fence line, there were three small buckthorns. I hit two of them with the mix in the backpack sprayer, and they are already badly wilted today. Charlie is still laughing.

  • dandy_line (Z3b N Cent Mn)
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    Ok, I see the pictures now. 1st does remind me of Balkan Catchfly, 2nd reminds me of Impatiens, Pale Touch-me-not, a native that goes berserk on any open ground I have. Humming birds thrive on it during migration.

    i posted them on Name That Plant

  • bill_g_wisconsin
    3 years ago

    A question for you buckthorn warriors...


    I've been using an Echo brand diaphragm pump backpack sprayer, model MS-401, and have liked it. It has been comfortable to wear, functional, easy to control the low pressure for buckthorn spraying or higher pressures for doing the yard stuff. The only thing that has been less than good was the crappy spray nozzles. The sprayer is the same as an RL Flo-Master backpack, just labeled for Echo.


    Yesterday, though, the pump sprung a big leak, and let's just say that there won't be any weeds or buckthorn growing on my back side for a while. In looking for repair parts availability, it looks like the pump part is not rebuildable, and costs as much as the whole sprayer. This rubbed me the wrong way.


    Which sprayers have any of you been using? Are you happy with them?

  • terrineff
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    Hi, nice to hear from you despite issue. I've never used backpack sprayer, rather Hudson 1.3 G pumpless tank. New model incorporates rechargeable lithium battery which is slick.

    Our issue comes courtesy of neighbor with whom share pond. Fescue looking gorgeous this season. My weed control program of prodiamine 65 followed by spot Milestone + 2,4-D or Trimec as needed yielded lush cover including distant spots where inherited a mix of fescue + prairie grasses. First year those spots in full sun folded over into verdant green carpet. Well just too unsightly. Mr. Mow His Sparse KBG <1/2" petitioned city to force mowing. And guess what? Though Minnetonka gives lip service to sustainability and low water usage we're not permitted any turf >10"; that is, total length even if laying on the ground. Tom mowed when 90' Wednesday so with no irrigation system anticipate turf will go dormant. Last weekend planted blue spruce on that distant spot that was 80% weeds when moved in. If told to mow again before fall I plan to kill off all the grass and let weeds reclaim. This weekend we began planting tall viburnum varieties to block off view of our yard -- can't be forced to mow what one can't see unless trespassing says Tom. (Yes, I witness MHSKBG trespassing and we know he's cut down multiple trees on the property--filed two police reports.) Seems we will be visible --and vocal --test case as Minnetonka Council is encouraging No Mow but appeal rejection letter went on about fact that none of the fescue used in such seeds mixes native to MN or US. What the hell?!

  • dandy_line (Z3b N Cent Mn)
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    What a nightmare~ In my case, I have to put with Ms "I demand an English Manor lawn even tho I live in the woods". but it's not the extreme you have. Does the city expect mowing right down to the pond? The DNR would object to that. There needs to be buffer strip around it.

    And for the ten years I have been here I started planting trees and shrubs immediately to block off the view of my neighbors' grey house with big blank wall. She uses a gas leaf blower for hours at a time to get the smallest foreign object off the grass. And she does it just about every week in the summer.

    Sorry for my rant. I really hope you win your battle with Mtka.

  • bill_g_wisconsin
    3 years ago

    Dandy and Terrineff, I feel for you guys! I can relate - my sprayer broke going over the lawn to quinclorac the very few crabgrass stragglers that escaped my pre-emergent last spring. I keep telling the Miz, "Hey, it's green, isn't it?"


    An acquaintance in Cambridge did his whole yard in a beautiful prairie mixture. One day, when he was at work, the city came by and mowed it for him. People don't understand.


    Terrineff, at least you didn't do that no-mow with plugs of Prairie Dropseed, and all the work and expense to get that established. One would think that the City would understand the choice between the beautiful no-mow fescues, and no mo lawn whatsoever.

  • Pat & Bill Brown
    3 years ago

    bill_g_wisconsin, Did you make any progress with your Creeping Charlie. I have a large ever expanding mass in my woods that it seems I must deal with. Certainly, way too large to pull.

  • bill_g_wisconsin
    3 years ago

    Pat & Bill Brown, I don't think that pulling it works, anyway. Now is the time to get at it, They recommend two treatments in the fall, a few weeks apart. I've got one treatment done, one to go in a few days, and haven't been out in the yard to see if it put a wilt on them. The idea is to weaken them and let the winter kill them. The mix I'm using in the backpack sprayer is 2 fl. oz. of Weed Free Zone (Fertiloam) and 1 fl. oz. of triclopyr in a gallon of water. Also using a wetting agent.

  • Skip1909
    3 years ago

    I managed to kill all the creeping Charlie with a summer mow, then after it grew back, hit it with glyphosate August 31st. It was 2.5oz/gal 41% concentrate. Didnt have any plants around it worth saving though.

  • dandy_line (Z3b N Cent Mn)
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    Wow-Creeping Charlie, another one they still sell I believe. I think almost any herbicide is good enough to kill it. 2-4-d is a little kinder on the non-broadleaf species.

    I spent time at the Arb one day last week, and I was totally overwhelmed by the Buckthorn sprouting in some places. Another few years and I may have it.

  • terrineff
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    dandy_line: Earlier on this thread are numerous references to difficulty knocking out CC plus several selective herbicide CC mixes. My 2018 post: "Mix has evolved to 1% Triclopyr-4 / 1% 2,4-D / 0.5% surfactant / Q4 Plus Turf Herbicide concentrate diluted 2.5-oz. to one gallon water. Single treatment effective, even heretofore 'untamed' area disturbed by road construction and bordering neighbor doing zero weed control. Bonus? Q4 also effective against yellow nutsedge = no need to retreat area w/ Sedgehammer."

    Anyone have experience establishing a rain garden? Any & all input appreciated. Spouse decided top '21 spring project. In preparation he took out stand of male BT left as screen. I mention male because killing males turned female since August. Spot one, find up to dozen more- - upper branches often intertwined. Removing "one" near 20' Catalpa Tom ended up with BT debris mountain 15' H x 30' W. Funny, some dude walking by said you shouldn't be doing that. Tom: Do you know what buckthorn is? Dude: No, but I'm calling the police. Two squad cars. Merely waved at Tom. Glad they weren't busy with serious crime.

  • dandy_line (Z3b N Cent Mn)
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    Weird! How did that not escalate into major photo op for local news! I can see it now. "Buckthorn killer nabbed by local police".

    Ok on your Creeping Charlie mix. Me-I just choose whatever mix I have at hand, as long as it is strong enough.

    Raingarden can be just about anything thatlikes wet. Suggest you call utility locate crew first(Gopher state one call). Where about is this going to be?

    A hint: I like to use the Prairie Moon catalog forb list, scanning down the column for wet/dry factor and picking out species that way. Then look also for colors, height, season, etc. Makes it easy that way. So many things to choose from. Should be a real fun project. Let me know if you want seeds.

  • Pat & Bill Brown
    3 years ago

    Thanks everyone for their input on Creeping Charlie. Lot's to work with. Earlier discussions come to mind as well now that you mention it. Seems, some of my readings fade from my memory over time. Nice to have this all documented here.

  • bill_g_wisconsin
    3 years ago

    Yesterday I walked down to the creeping charlie area after hitting it hard a week and a half ago. Charlie was laughing at me again. No hint of wilt. Next time, I'll try the Terrineff mixture.

  • bill_g_wisconsin
    3 years ago

    @ terrineff, could you tell me a little more about how you do that creeping charlie mix? By 1% 2,4-D, do you add about 1-1/4 ounce per gallon on top of the 2, 4-D that is already in the Q4? Or do you calculate it out considering the concentration in the 2,4-D bottle? Same with triclopyr. I've left some pretty good scorch marks in my lawn in the past when I mixed stuff too strong.


    Reading the labels, the shelf life is good as long as it is stored at room temp, not frozen, and not stored at over 90 deg. I have a feeling that is what happened to my Weed Free Zone, storing it in the garage over the winter.

  • Pat & Bill Brown
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    bill_g_wisconsin re: backpack sprayer

    I empathize with your leak. It always makes me nervous carrying these things around on my back but don't see any option if you have a lot of area to cover or a lot of plants to spray. I've had my own leaks and have increased PPE protection each year for better safety. I think we need more than what they recommend on the labels. I look like an alien in the woods when spraying. The propane tank on my back also makes me think but haven't invested in any fire retardant clothes.

    I have the cheaper 3 gallon Jacto. https://www.jacto.com/northamerica/products/backpack-sprayers. As far as I can tell its a good brand. They market professional users and sell a pretty much full line of replacement parts and accessories. After sales support is reasonably accessible too. Apparently, I should 've purchased a level up, however, for use with the kind of stuff we're using.

    One thing I'm not too crazy about with mine is that there is no way to release the pressure within the chamber in the handle where the filter resides without making a mess if it is already full. Don't know if any other models or brands address this problem differently. Also, if you go with Jacto, I recommend the white tank. It's difficult to see the level of your content with the dark blue.

    I also have an Echo 3 gallon hand held sprayer and have learned that Echo sources Hudson product which they then sell with their label through their channels. I did not find Echo support to be very good and, if I recall correctly, had to go to Hudson for help with that one where support was much better.

  • bill_g_wisconsin
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    For what it is worth, I dumped the Echo backpack sprayer that had the leaky pump on the bottom. I had the same issue with their tech support, talked to the Hudson support person who handles the Echo product, bought the repair kit and it was wrong. I also was going to buy a Jacto with the pump on top, that cannot possibly leak. I like the design! In the end, there was a 4 gallon backpack with a similar design to Jacto on sale at Harbor Freight for $19. It has been fine, and when it kicks the bucket I'll probably buy the Jacto.


    Here's the one I bought. Not on sale any more, but still pretty inexpensive. I don't know how long it will last with diesel fuel, though. That brass piston model from Jacto is probably the ticket, because that is what it is made for.

    https://www.harborfreight.com/4-gallon-Backpack-Sprayer-63092.html

  • Pat & Bill Brown
    3 years ago

    Re: Creeping Charlie - When to spray?


    I've read in this thread and elsewhere that fall (Sept/Oct) is the best time to spray. However, mine is in an oak woodland just now partially beneath fallen leaves. The leaves won't be that easy to remove as the Charlie is a good height and the leaves lie on top and between the sprouts. Uncleared, I fear the leaves will protect the weed resulting in a waste of time and poison.


    Spring offers a pretty clear shot as the fallen leaves will be broken down to the soil by winter. I was amazed how exposed this mass looked in early spring but I am also aware that the plant's juices will be flowing in the wrong direction.


    It's a pretty big area much of which is open but the edges are now creeping into shrubs that I'd rather not harm. Afraid, I've let this go too long.


    What do people think about my best timing?

    1. Wait until spring?
    2. Wait until next summer?
    3. Wait until next fall?
    4. Clear it as best I can and spray asap?
    5. Other?



  • terrineff
    3 years ago

    Were it me, with broadleaf herbicide efficacy window closing, I'd immediately treat exposed areas considered significant/valuable knowing major battle lies ahead in spring. Excellent info: https://cropwatch.unl.edu/2017/low-temperature-and-frost-may-affect-efficacy-burndown-herbicides

  • Pat & Bill Brown
    3 years ago

    Thanks for your input terrineff! Unfortunately, couldn't catch the time window. Have put a lot of hours in so far this year but didn't make it to the Charlie. Prioritized oriental bittersweet instead. Lot's of hand pulling and didn't even get through that.


    Read the article link. A good overview of herbicide effectiveness at various temps and weather conditions. It occurred to me that I was aware of a lot of this last year but quite rusty again already. It seems I need to review annually.


    Have you or anyone else had any luck or unluck spraying Charlie in the spring? If so, please elaborate.


    This will be year 4 buckthorn removal in the same area. Year 1 was pretty much cut and dab. Year 2 and 3 spray. Pulling and cut/dab seemed to be working this year but need more time and unfrozen ground. Density is down and plants are mostly small, either seedlings or sprouts off withered roots. Hope to have some time this season yet.

    dandy_line (Z3b N Cent Mn) thanked Pat & Bill Brown
  • dandy_line (Z3b N Cent Mn)
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    What good work you have been doing. You may end up having to be a consultant to your city on Buckthorn eradication You are mostly an expert by now. And the restorations are coming along nicely. Did you take before and after photos?

    I got six inches of snow yesterday and I just got notice this morning from Prairie Moon that my plants are being shipped this week! I hope I can still dig them in,

  • terrineff
    3 years ago

    Oh no re: PM. What are you planting? Hopefully snow melts (here too). About before photos, take any stock Internet photo of a dense BT thicket and that was our property. Couldn't see 5-acre pond from road or even the house. Yes, Tom and I have many, many lessons learned. Could never be city BT consultant -- their recommended herbicide concentrations too low for full kill first time, every time. In the many lessons learned category.

  • dandy_line (Z3b N Cent Mn)
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    It was so long ago that I forgot what I ordered. Shadblow(supposed to be decorative), Illinois Rose((a climber), Elderberry canadensis(It sin't very widespread around here, only the S. racemosa is. But it turns out I found a shrub in fruit at the Arboretum this year and did get enough seed so I can germinate my own this winter).

    I have collected lots of different seed this fall so it will be a busy winter for sowing again. Had good successes this past season so am happy. My volunteer Pagoda Dogwoods are all thriving and starting to produce berries. I have some Winterberry plants that produced a nice crop of bright red fruit, until a gang of robber Robins came in one day two weeks ago and cleaned them out. But I see a Grouse every now and then happily living off my berries so that makes me smile. And:

    Turkeys raiding my young Viburnum trilobum last week. Only about five years since I seeded it. (picture taken through screen door)


    How many hundreds/thousands of BT have you slewed on your property do you suppose. I bet that others going down the road have noticed your effort. Anyone with the BT problem sure sees it. And you should start seeing native plants coming up out of no where pretty soon. The seed bank is there in the soil biding its time. Your reward should begin to happen soon.

  • Pat & Bill Brown
    3 years ago

    Based on what I've come across in my neighborhood in Washington Co, I predict 50 years from now Burning Bush will be the new Buckthorn.

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