Deer resistant shrubs that might work for you include Kalmias (mature sizes vary, but these shrubs are not cheap), spireas (the smaller ones), Iteas, 'Palibin' lilacs, Lespedeza 'Spring Grove' and 'Little Buddy', Nanho Buddleias, junipers and others that I can't think of right now, including some of the smaller viburnums. Some of these plants need more sun than others. Also deer resistant are ornamental grasses. If I were planting the area you describe, I would mix plants, grouping the smaller ones, like the spireas, into plantings of 5-7. Try to avoid planting in a straight line. Also, keep in mind that deer resistant is NOT deer proof. If deer have the run of a property, they will taste anything new and are bound to develop a taste for something that ordinarily they would have little interest in. Keep new plants sprayed and make a real effort to get deer to avoid your property. It can be done.

Some plants that have done well for me in dry situations: They aren't very formal, but rugosa roses have a strong, sweet scent, beautiful foliage, and large red hips. They only bloom once, but I like them quite a bit. Flowers are single or double in shades of pink, magenta and white. They sucker some and have wicked thorns, but will grow in beach sand. Penstemon pinifolius is a relatively short plant with typical tubular penstemon flowers in early summer in shades of red, orange, and yellow and fine needle-like foliage. If you typically have good snow cover, it is worth trying Caryopteris which I have found works for me, rather to my surprise: small tidy shrub, late summer violet-blue flowers, and either silver or gold foliage. In the coldest areas it works more like a perennial, dying back to the ground each year. 'Arthur Simmonds' has trialled as the hardiest selection, though I haven't grown it. (available at Lazy S's Nursery via mail order.) I have 'Sunshine Blue' with gold foliage which experiences some dieback but comes back every year and either 'First Choice' or 'Dark Knight' which has survived just fine for several seasons. This does better than lavender for me which survives, but takes too long to recover to look good most seasons. I do replant lavender (small inexpensive plants) most years and it grows well as an annual since the insects and humming birds like it. The only western Agastache that has survived at least one winter for me has been A. rupestris. It is a short-lived perennial for me, lasting at most 4 or 5 years, but I really like the silvery foliage and August salmon and smoky lavender blooms, so I replace it when it hasn't survived a winter. You may find that some of the blue Agastaches work for you, but I haven't grown them since they have a reputation for self-seeding. I have had Weigela grow well on a completely unwatered slope, so it should be fine. However, the Cornus kousa that is in an unwatered dry spot doesn't look nearly as nice as the one in a more average setting, and the serviceberry that I planted in a dry spot died the second season, despite my hauling water to it all of its first season. Lonicera sempervirens 'Major Wheeler' is a long-blooming, bright red selection of a native vine that does fine without supplemental water in a well-drained bed. I have only had mine a couple of years, but I really like it. It should do fine being trimmed to its support, an iron trellis of 3/8" rod, if I decide it needs it. Daffodils should be fine if you are looking for spring bulbs. Plants that others have mentioned that have also done well for me in well-drained situations include bearded iris, flax, rose campion (though it self-seeds ferociously unless deadheaded), coreopsis (both lanceolata and verticillata), daylily, Baptisia, Liatris, Sedum, Semperivirens, Amsonia hubrichtii, Nepeta/catmint, Alyssum, and columbine.

Well, there is a reference--of sorts, Leslie! It's about 60 years worth of "stuff"--in my head! Been doing this for a long, long time! When I was only 10 or 11 years old I was out--barefoot--waiting on my parents' perennial customers and digging up field-grown plants for them! Have always loved green growin' things! Also helped in my Uncle's greenhouses, right next door, when they got busy and the "grown ups" needed help! My brother in Illinois--even older than me!--still grows/sells bedding plants and veggies for a couple months in spring! The first actual gardening "experience" I remember was when I was three years old and sat down on the grass next to our huge veggie garden to eat some peas, which were what was next to the grass---and I SAT on a bee! My first bee sting!!! But I was already helping plant the "big seeds" by then, so "gardening" goes back pretty much as far as I can remember! Glad to answer any groundcover questions you may have, but if you have specific questions you'll get more answers, from more people, if you start a separate thread about "whatever." Since everybody tends to recommend the things they like the best, you get more variety when more people respond. It's not unusual for variegated perennials to be less vigorous than "plain" ones, but that's not at all always true. Just depends on the plant and the variety. If you're looking at something specific, google for it online and look for comments from "real people." Obviously if you just look at the info from the places that sell it, they're only gonna tell you the "good" things about it! For instance! They will almost never use the word "invasive!" They'll sometimes say something about a plant "spreading," or "covers quickly," but they'll seldom "warn" you that it's going to Eat Your Yard! Same thing's true for plants that are less vigorous or questionably hardy! All they want to do is sell it--and after that it's your problem! So for things you don't really know about, I recommend posting here or searching other forums and such for "user" information. About the Euonymus! That's a woody plant that's usually sold in the nursery rather than the perennial department, so I don't know a whole lot about it! BUT, I do know this! There was one in here when I bought this house. This'll tell you what I think of it! I just looked thru all my albums for a pic of it--and I never took any! The best one I can find is this--which is really a pic of my yellow columbine! The Euonymus is the thing behind the columbine that's going up the wall and up the gutter in the background! When I moved in here, "that thing" was sprawling all the way out, half way in front of the steps in the pic! It was going ALL the way up the wall---and it grows UNDER the siding, wrecking it! I cut down most of it, but left a little bit so there'd be something there till I was able to plant what I wanted in that area. I had NO idea how obnoxious it would be! It roots absolutely anywhere the woody stems come into contact with the soil. And it grows FAST, especially in spring! It will grow thru, around, and "under" just about anything! I still have those "little" pieces" of it in there--which I hack back multiple times each year, but I MUST get new siding, and when I do--it's GONE! As a groundcover? Guess it depends on what you're looking for. When I moved in this stuff was a good two feet high, and the best way I could describe what it looked like would be" Sprawly! It IS evergreen, tho even with limited sun, mine tends to sunburn quite easily in winter when it's dormant. I don't know what variety it is, but it is definitely Euonymus fortunei, and since it's variegated it might very well be 'Emerald Gaiety". Based on my experience I wouldn't recommend it unless someone wanted "something" somewhere like on the edge of a rather large yard to just fill in space--and even then I think it would take considerable effort to keep it from spreading all over the place--unless that's what the person wanted. Also, I had no idea about this, but when I was looking up the variety you mentioned I ran into this. Apparently it's considered to be an invasive species in the Midwest and East. With the drier climate I doubt that it would ever get that bad out here, but I really don't know anymore about it! Have I talked you out of Euonymus yet" LOL! Not really trying to if it happens to fit the situation where you were thinking of using it! For cracks in paths/patios, the easiest to grow and most-likely-to-succeed plant is woolly thyme, Thymus pseudolanuginosis (tho it's been reclassified as other species every now and then, over the years!) Easily identifiable because it has leaves that look more grayish than the other green-leafed thymes, and is slightly "fuzzy" compared to the other thymes. It is definitely the most drought tolerant of the thymes, which is a main factor in its being the easiest to grow in cracks. Tolerates foot traffic very well when it's established. Besides that any of the other creeping thymes would work and take foot traffic well, and while Turkish Veronica, Veronica liwanensis, would work, it's usually considerably less "dense" than the thymes, and it seems to me it wouldn't "fill in" as well, or at least would take a lot longer to do it! The leaves on Turkish Veronica are spaced much further apart on the stems than thyme! Depending on how big the cracks are, you could even put something like the 'Chocolate Chip" Ajuga in them! It will definitely tolerate some foot traffic, but would get ratty looking if it was walked on a LOT. There are lots of other things people recommend, and a separate thread I'm quite sure would get you other recommendations. One important thing when you're planting in cracks is to be sure you have some "decent" soil in the cracks that will hold moisture and nutrients. If your cracks were filled by brushing sand into them, you're gonna have a really, really hard time getting something started in there! With the deadheading/cutting back I recommend with the ground covers, it depends on what it is--and what you want it to look like. I have a small yard, so I'm not really trying to "cover ground" so the "groundcovers" I have are kept in fairly small patches here and there--I have them because I like the way they look! I love to walk around my yard just to LOOK, I do it a LOT, and I like it when things look neat without a lot of dead foliage/flowers or sprawly stems, so I do what I need to do to keep things neat. (I also love sitting out there "doing things" so I enjoy doing it! And--it gives me things to give away at the swaps!!!) If someone had a large area that they just wanted "covered" and wasn't too concerned about the up-close-and-personal appearance of the plants, most of the ground covers can just be left on their own to do their own thing! All the pics I posted above are of plants that have grown out after being cut back. Here are some samples of some of those things when they're blooming, showing how floppy looking they can get! First here are some "before" pics of the one area showing the different "winter evolving to summer" color of some of the sedums. 02.23.08 04.08.08 04.25.08 The sedums in those pics were cut back in late summer or early fall. Now here's what the Sedum hybridum against the fence in the second pic looks like when it's just starting to bloom, and as it blooms more, the flowering stems keep getting longer and longer--and when it's done flowering, the dead, brown flowers stay on the stems unless they're cut off. And here's what the 'Dragon's Blood' looks like when it's just starting to bloom. And here's the other little "succulent garden"--the first thing I planted when I moved in here--because EVERYTHING else was covered by either ROCK or sod! This is when everything still pretty much had its "winter" color! I think this is the only pic I have that shows how PINK the 'Tricolor' sedum gets in winter! And here are a couple with the 'Tricolor' blooming. You can see how they're flopping all over everything, and if left that way they would pretty quickly EAT the things growing near them! If the floppy, sprawling look works for you, you don't mind the brown "leftover" flowers--and there's nothing in the area for them to eat, I say let 'em go au naturale! But I don't have the space, and definitely don't like the "left overs" when they're done blooming. So, like everything else, it just comes down to personal preferences! Boulder people are very definitely welcome at the swap--EVERYBODY is welcome at the swap [except for axe murderers! Inside joke from the first swap!], but if you haven't checked in on the swap thread yet, post to let us know you're planning to come--and you MUST PM Bonnie so she has your address and can send you her address and directions to her place. Darthr, if you have questions about ANYTHING I've posted above, please let me know. Skybird

If you girdle the Norway Maples this winter/spring, they will still leaf out and look almost normal this summer - 2007. Next year - 2008 -they might partially leaf out but will probably not make it through the whole summer. So I think that means you should plan on planting the most heavily norway mapled areas not until summer '08 or even summer '09. However, there are probably some spots that are not in really dense maple shade that you could start to plant now. If you're like most of us do-it-yourselfers you probably wouldn't get it all planted until long after summer '09 anyway. For shade and deer I think Spicebush is nice for moister areas. Mountain Laurel is versatile and has good winter interest, but will be browsed by deer. There are many viburnums, and Mapleleaf viburnum might be the best choice for a woodland. Don't count out Juneberry just because your neighbor had problems. If the neighbor's plants were under Norway Maples (or under native maples, or some other trees) that might have caused them to fail. Also, some percentage of plants tend to fail even with proper planting and care, so a single failure doesn't mean the plant species isn't suitable for the ravine. I wouldn't worry too much about the sandy soil. I live in an area where some soils are almost pure sand and other have lots of clay and many of the same plants occur in both areas.