May I join?

If so, I see either a moss covered statue or birdbath along the center path...about 2/3rds of the way down.

Tricia

Well we are off to a great start the only problem I see is already I am adding plants to my must have in 2007 list.

nhbabs it is your turn.

I have to interject that the bluebeard will require winter mulching. It's reliably hardy to zone 5a, but I'm figuring this nice, sunny border will be tucked in nice and snug with mulch, so the bluebeard has good odds of making it through a 4b winter.

Well, I have nothing against caryopteris 'WG', but 10 of the same is somewhat excessive. Two groups of 3 is more than enough, IMO. For the similar (yellow+blue/purple) effect, some dwarf yellow Chamaecyparis pisifera ('Gold Spangle', 'Aurea Nana', 'Mops', etc) with any group 3 purple clematis (Jackmanii, etc) growing on them could be planted in any desired place.
BTW, for z6 gardeners only, the new yellow-leaved Caryopteris incana 'Jason' is worth to try instead of WG.
While on a yellow foliage caryopteris subject, I'd recommend to plant something with burgundy leaves close by.
For example dwarf weigela 'Midnight wine' could be a nice early blooming companion to the late blooming caryopteris.
What is especially good about this combo is that due to caryopterise's late wake from the dormancy, the most intense yellow/gold on it will coincide with the most intense burgundy on weigela.

Cady,
I am glad this came up early on as I wonder how many "Thrifty New Englanders" would choose to plant so many of one variety that is a zone pusher? Let's face it most of us love the challenge of pushing the limitations of our zone and I think our garden should reflect that but perhaps we should come up with a percentage of high risk plants. What do you think, how much are you willing to risk? kt

Oh phooey. When you're right, you're right. :)
It's true, I'm a zonal denier, though usually just with my own garden, not a customer's (unless they know the risk and still want the plant).

WG may be too marginal to risk that number. Let's go with the cluster of three toward the end of the garden, as a bright light in the distance.

I was sketching the 100' length of the border and figuring That clustered at the ends and stretched down the middle, ten plants would really get absorbed into the plantings. So that's not the issue.

One thing I will say in my defense is that nobody mentioned budget for this project. lol

While I've found the normal grey foliaged caryopteris does reasonably OK here, I've also found that yellow and variagated plants are noticably weaker. This just may be a non-starter.

Also, and this is just my opinion, for a border this size, a 3 ft plant isn't a 'bone'. Particularly something that has little to no presence during the winter. Syringa microphylla is a 'bone'. The big miscanthuses, that type of thing. This border is going to need some size.

BTW, though I didn't set up any of the basic parameters for this garden, my big backyard garden isn't too far off from these dimensions. It's about 100 ft from the back of my garage to the property line, but 30 ft across or so, with areas in the middle. The most successful parts recently have been the ones with the big plants.

runktrun,
Designing a perennial garden is a tall order! There are so many considerations. May this old time designer suggest that we start with the spring flowering varieties and move on through the seasons. As you know, many perennials do not have good foliage quality after they bloom and planting to conceal them with later blooming plants is an important part of the design. So, I will skip over the spring bulbs that others might want to plant and suggest scattering clumps of Dorinicum (Leapard's bane) throughout for their early, cheerful bloom after a long winter. Its foliage melts away quickly after blossoming. This should be a more widely used early spring perennial.

For the record, I wanna say that I left a Caryopteris "Worcester Gold" in a container above-ground, in an exposed area, during the nasty winter of 2004 with its sub-zero temps and freezing winds. Not only did it survive, but the base of the plants had viable buds at above the soil level.

So there. Nyah. lol

But if anyone here thinks that we shouldn't risk it in the 4b border, I'll officially switch my choice to Monarda didyma 'Pink Supreme' -- a drift of it mid-border.

triceae,
We cross posted earlier and then I was busy having way too much fun giving Cady a hard time to extend a proper welcome. I will throw your name in the hat, when it is your turn we will wait 24hrs for your post before moving on to the next player. I agree birdbath or statuary would be a nice addition.
I think nandina suggestion is a good one that we should use.
" start with the spring flowering varieties and move on through the seasons. As you know, many perennials do not have good foliage quality after they bloom and planting to conceal them with later blooming plants is an important part of the design"
If you disagree and/or have additional thoughts let us know.

nhbabs must be busy dtd it is your turn

MadG,
You're right about the size, but I wasn't sure whether we have "permission" to use larger shrubs in the perennial border. I figured bluebeard was kind of fudging the distinction between perennials and shrubs, since technically, it is woody. I'd be happy to sub in George's recommendation of C. incana 'Jason' for WG.
Also, Miscanthus won't do well in 4b, and in fact there are very few grasses that tolerate this cold zone without extra care. Survivors won't likely reach the impressive size you're thinking of to provide those bones, either.

Let's just stagger some big wooden obelisks or other non-plant structures at key points in the border for "bones" if shrubs are a no-no. :)

Boy, I'm takin' the heat on this today! All because I got lazy and went with a plant I like, rather than one that was right for the climate and setting... sheesh! Picky lot you are! lol

"..start with the spring flowering varieties and move on through the seasons....
If you disagree ...."

Yes, I disagree.
Bones/Anchors (shrubs/small trees) should be planted first.

"... for a border this size, a 3 ft plant isn't a 'bone'."

Wholeheartedly agree. 6 to 8' should be a minimum for the such size of the border. Also, winter appearance for the 'bones', be they evergreen or deciduous should be taken into serious consideration.

Remind me, what lighting conditions we have in this border?

cady, " I'd be happy to sub in George's recommendation of C. incana 'Jason' for WG. "

"Jason" most likely will not survive z5 winter, forget about z4.
It's for z6+ only.

Oops. I misread your comment, and thought you were saying that it might have a better chance than WG! Oh well, I'm ready to just plant bee balm!

Going back to the grasses for "bones," the only miscanthus I've seen to gain any size in zone 4 is 'Silberfeder', and maybe Purple Stem ('purpurescens'), but it needs absolutely spot-on drainage. And the growing season is often too short to get the flower plumes (which add structure and height). I've seen Calamagrostis used also to nice effect, but I don't think it has quite the size to make "bones." Those are the two that get the best size. If you have a good microclimate you have more options, but we haven't cued in a warm microclimate for our fantasy garden, so I'd suggest sticking to the Sure Things. :)

There are many more small grasses, including sub-tundra species such as bear grass, that will do fine in 4b, but not of much use for "bones." They might be fun to toss in for the front of the border later...

Forgot to add this link from my bookmarks -- cold hardy grasses for anyone who want to include some in the perennial border. I'd take some of the recommendations there with a grain of salt, though -- the ones that say hardy in zones 4-5 usually are marginal in 4. In particular, M. s. ''Arabasque,' M. s. ''Autumn Light', and M. s. ''Gracillimus'/Maiden Grass are marginal or poop out in zone 4.

But I did forget that Molinia can get some real size in 4b, so you might want some of that in the back of the border!

Sorry, I've been distracted these past couple days. Think I'm going to take the rest of the week off from GardenWeb, so KT, please pass along my "turns" to others for now. Thanks!

Has this challenge ended now that folks are busy or have things progressed on a different thread?

I just happened to glance through this posting. What a fun opportunity to design the bed of your dreams. As someone mentioned, I assume budget isn't a consideration. I would love to have this much sun in any area on my property!

Solana has a great idea on the path down the middle. You do need some way to tend to all the plantings.

Also, I know this is strictly a perennial bed, but shouldn't we consider all seasons of interest? Possibly make the bones of the garden some conifers? I guess this comes to mind as I inherited a border this size with only really the "bones" of conifers planted. I yanked some, but left most. Some are blue tinged, some are yellow tinged, and different sizes but they do look nice with snow (or without this year with just the leaf mulch on the beds). I guess see how it would fit into the surrounding area.

This was a very interesting thread and I was very curious to hear peoples ideas on the hardscaping. I too am wondering if it is continuing... and is there a software program someone is using behind the scenes to create a visual of this effort?

Shall we pick up where we left off? A few questions to those interested;
1. Is this a perennial garden in the strictest sense or can some of the bones be shrubs?
2. Should we as Nandina suggested begin with spring bulbs and move on from there?
3. Like all good new England Gardeners we like to stretch our zones with from time to time should we pick a percentage for those plants?

Any other issues or suggestions please let me know.

Please let's make it a mixed border, unless we plan to design one of those later.

And, back to caryopteris for a sec, please. I've got quite a few of them, silver-leaved Blue Knight (or similar) and they look stunning in winter. The dried flowers are very airy and dainty and give a sort of buff colored haze to that part of the bed; they're surrounding a hamamelis 'Jelena' (though please believe me - it's not a tree ring!) and I'd have to say the caryopteris is almost as appealing as Jelena in bloom. OK, I admit that "buff" is about the same as brown, but ... not quite.

If this bed is really long, 10 would certainly provide a nice rhythm. If the bed's not long enough to accommodate that many, let's get the lazy gardeners back out there with their tiller and make it longer. It's so easy!

Hosatabuff, there's no software out back that I know of, but it's anybody's guess. To my mind, the garden under consideration *mostly* provides a framework for discussion.

I think I already voted for a mixed border. If I didn't, I'll do it again.

Since we've already decided the border is 100 ft by 20 ft, with a path down the middle, 10 shrubs sounds about right. Five on each side, staggered, 20 ft away from each other.

As for the hardiness issue, it seems that's one of the things that's really tripping us up in this garden. We don't seem to have real, live zone 4 input. I grow a couple of caryopteris, but honestly wouldn't be shocked if one year none of them came back. Actually I'm quite surprised the oldest survived -15. It took it a while to get going that spring, but I'd been warned about that and let it alone. To my mind they aren't particularly interesting during the winter since they don't stand up to snow load. Like a lot of grasses, they break off and get quite dishevelled.

As to how much zone pushing should be going on here, I really don't know. I'm not a New Englander. I'm from Pennsylvania, and the way you people throw money around just amazes me.

LOL, MG - New Englanders have a reputation for being thrifty, but you've discovered the secret; we're cheap about just about everything so we can spend more money on plants.

Why do you propose staggering the shrubs? If there's a path down the center of this garden, would you get more impact by placing them opposite each other along the path? I'm not arguing for one way or the other, I'm just curious. This (placement of plants) is not my forte, and I'd have guessed that placing them opposite each other would create more of a rhythmic effect - especially since they are such small shrubs. Would staggering them give a more winding effect? That might be better after all.

I can't remember why this garden had to be in zone 4 - you're right, there are mostly 5- and 6-ers here.

hostabuff,
I have two different packages of design software that are new I have high hopes to start poking around and learn one of them but the other I would be happy to give and send off to anyone who would be willing to plug in our garden details.
dtd,
I don't remember which one of us was the original trouble maker that chose zone 4 but given we have made it this far I vote we stay on track with zone 4 and look forward to next winter when I am going to vote for zone 7. I wonder if we could find someone on the perennials forum that is zone 4 and would be willing to pop by and act as an adviser from time to time? I don't visit that forum so a total newbie showing up with a request like that might seem odd. Is there any one who would feel comfortable in recruiting an adviser?
Mad Gal,
Lol, I always thought a great thread would be asking folks whats the one thing they do in the garden that defines them as a New Englander! I wonder if my penchant for saving string would keep me in the fore front.

Okey Dokey,
Things are so quiet I am beginning to wonder if it is my breath, but lets give this a try and hope some new players will stop by.
I came across this link that might be fun.
dtd It is your turn to choose a plant for our mixed border.

I will still staunchly defend my choice of caryopteris in the 100'X20' border. lol
Although I garden only in zones 5 and 6 (where my customers are), according to Taylor Guides and other sources, caryopteris is root hardy to zone 4. If it has died in warmer gardens, I'd check drainage, microclimate and winter mulching to see if maybe those might have been a factor.

Also, I defend the quantity of 10, because in a 100'X20' garden, accent plants like that get eaten up by the space easily. As a designer, I think in terms of creating a rhythm or pattern throughout a border, so having a staggered planting of chartreuse caryopteris -- 1 for every 10 feet -- fit into my imagined vista. If you are thinking of an unstructured cottage garden look, that is another thing.

And while the 3' height of the caryopteris may not provide the "bones" in terms of height during the growing season, the unclothed shrubby plant will provide winter interest with its textured seedheads, and indeed does provide structure during the stretch in which the herbaceous perennials have disappeared. If we are not putting shrubs and ornamental trees in the border (I assumed not since that wasn't discussed as part of the perennial border), then caryopteris is a solid stand-in. Coupled with the few varieties of grass that will top 6' in zone 4, they will serve as bones.

'nuff said. :)

Lol, Cady on your passion alone I think we should plant Caryopteris 'Worcester Gold' and I am definitely adding this one to my 2007 must have list . I think over time I have forgotten that this is a *challenge* and our original design was zone 4 perennial, as much as most of us are familiar with zone 5 and up and a bed this size is most often a mixed border I would like to try and stick to our challenge and see what we can learn along the way. I am sorry if I caused any confusion. I will say again I think Nandina's idea of bulbs first is probably a good place for us to begin.

1. Perennial 20' deep 100' long
2. I see a meandering path down the middle with a 'secret' garden in the center. There, a bench, pond or fountain invites us to stay a while. Small, fragrant, plants wanting close inspection are near at hand while tall plants screen the edges. - Solana

3. Caryopteris 'Worcester Gold' staggered so that there is a cluster of three of these shrublet perennials about 10' down the border, a cluster of three about 10' from the end of the border, and the remaining four interspersed with other plants in between. Cady

4. I see either a moss covered statue or birdbath along the center path...about 2/3rds of the way down. - triciae

dtd it's your turn. lol,lol,lol,lol...

I don't want to disturb the rhythm now that the garden is moving forward...hopefully it is ok to interject comments...I also like the idea of the Caryopteris...have checked it out more closely...and will add it to my own perennial border this summer. It will add a little more continuity to the repeating chanteuse I have running through the garden now with Stachys byzantina 'Primrose Heron' and Tanacetum vulgare 'Isla Gold'. Thank you Caddy.

I only mentioned software because I thought I read an earlier comment about someone waiting for software and wanted to know if it was for this project. A number of years back I bought landscape design software...loaded it and never used it. I would volunteer to plug in the details into a software program...it would be fun...however as of this week I will be EMPLOYED after a long, long job search...and I need to see where this will take me before adding any commitments.

I'm having fun looking up the shrub plant recommendations...I am not good with the Latin names, typically use the common names...so this is educational...any discussion on shrubs and trees helps me with my big project this summer...

I'll admit nothing beats the blue of Caryopteris late in the season. I should try "Worcester Gold" in my garden next year. Zones seem so odd this year. In January I thought we were in zone 7, now with all the cold in February, I think we are in zone 4! I'd certainly go with Cady's recommendation.

I'm also a native from Pennsylvania. I think of myself as thrifty, but will splurge some on plantings. Nothing brings such long term joy!

I've kept a 'Worcester Gold' in a large container for a few seasons, and it serves as a portable highlight I can move around to where it's needed (for example, to brighten the beebalm patch after the Monarda has finished blooming).

Here is another bluebeard variety (C. incana 'Jason') to keep in mind for your own plantings (see link). It's an eyepopper too, and a little more compact than 'Worcester Gold.' I checked several sites that state it is hardy to -25F, which is zone 4b (the linked site says "zone 5" is the hardiness zone, but also says that it's -25F hardy).

Okay, I'm "caryoptertis'd out" now. Please proceed with the next perennial. :)

Don't forget George's recommendation: some dwarf yellow Chamaecyparis pisifera ('Gold Spangle', 'Aurea Nana', 'Mops', etc) with any group 3 purple clematis (Jackmanii, etc) growing on them could be planted in any desired place.

If any of these are columnar or fastigiate, perhaps we could include several at the north end of the path (if it runs south-north) - combined with the lower, more rounded caryopteris, that might be all the bones we need. I'm thinking something that will top out at 6 or 8' - whether Goerge's varieties do that I'm not sure.

Moving on to spring bulbs, per Nandina's suggestion, lets include several hundred snowdrops, to lure us out here during late winter/early spring. (Yes, they're common, but there's really nothing like them.) We can plant them a little back from the path, where they will be seen only in spring when the taller perennials are dormant, leaving the foreground available for something fragrant that we can choose later.

Cady,
That is a good idea to have a container plant or two to fill in when things begin to look bare. That is usually the time of year I begin to turn my back on the garden.
Dtd,
If what you are looking for is a fastigiate conifer then perhaps we should go with Ego's Chamaecyparis pisifera 'Gold Spangle' 6-20' tall 3-10' wide selection as 'Aurea Nana' tends to get as wide as it does tall, and 'Mops' as you might guess is more bun shaped. I am particularly fond of C. 'Etoile Violette' zone 4-6, pruning group C. but there are so many wonderful Clematis to choose from so I am hoping George returns to tell us which he would choose. Love the idea of snowdrops they remind me of spring peepers as folks are always so thrilled to tell you when they saw them.

hostaz6a it is your turn to choose - zone 4 bulb

**hostabuff would you mind if I call you buff during the game so my simple mind won't confuse you and hostaz6a.

Katy,
FWIW, you can use big containers of annuals and/or tropical foliage, a nice piece of garden art or sculpture, even an old chair with a "pot person" or other focal point to guide the eye from the fading post-bloom perennials and to punch up the garden bed. The fact that the stuff is portable allows you to move it anywhere a color/texture lift is needed, and to stow it elsewhere for the winter.

Cady,
Thanks what a great concept and now you have given me a reason to consider replacing my yard junk that up till now I have used solely as a way of deterring the dog from making another doggie path with a nice piece of art. Does anyone have a favorite artist that makes art for the landscape? *What is FWIW?

hostabuff must be busy

Mad Gal it is your turn

So we are starting with early bulbs? How about Tete a Tete daffodils? Early, cheerful, they can be scattered around in fairly large clumps. They are also early enough to avoid one of my pet bulb peeves - foliage that takes forever to die back, and affects the appearance of the June garden.

BTW, FWIW = For What It's Worth

Great choice I just planted some myself this fall. Well it is my turn and I am going to take a page from Ego's book and plant the late spring bloomer Eremurus Himalaicus in the back of the bed as they should get 6-7' tall. They will need very well draining soil but I would be willing to amend a patch for these beauties. They are a pretty expensive bulb but in a bed this size at this time of year I would like a group of a dozen repeated twice more down the bed.

Bug it is your turn

Katy,
There are a lot of artists who do landscape pieces. It's just a matter of what your prefences are -- rustic/country, "shabby chic," modern/contemporary, etc.

Here's an English sculptor who does metal work. I like the geese.

Thanks Cady I loved the site and particularly the garden gates I just wish artist and jewelers would put price tags on their items hehehe.
I am headed off for a while but don't want to loose any of our new found momentum so I have solicited someone to pick names out of the hat. Patsums is my big much,much,much older sister from Fla. she is a school teacher so I would be very careful about giving her a hard time. I have sent her a list of past participants and of course she knows that anyone brave enough to stop by will have their name thrown in the hat. Happy Designing kt

well, it looks like Bug is really busy, so I've been instructed to pull another name. I'm pulling the names from a valentine coffee mug given to me yesterday by one of my students. And the name is...hostaz6a.

Well I'm very late showing up here. Not even sure what we are trying to achieve as I've not kept up. But I saw bulbs mentioned, and one sweet one I really love each year is Segovia narcissus.

gardenbug, I lurked when you had pics of your garden, how lovely it was. It amazed me that it was so lush and so much growth when your season is cut short by being so far north. I'm sure these early segovia are a great joy in the early spring.
We had a frost/freeze here in Central Florida Friday nite, coldest it's been in four years, but we were having that unusual warm winter you were having also, so things that were blooming, weren't supposed to be...everything is blooming about a month early, so strange., sorry I got off on this, but the one thing that didnt suffer in the frost was my herbs...next name is...

luvherbs

I had to google Eremurus Himalaicus; it's aka Foxtail Lily. Looks like a great plant, I suppose the reason I don't have it is because it's so expensive; but now I will have to be on the lookout. One site mentions that later in the season it will look like "a dry, dead octopus" - is that a "feature," or do you have to disguise it with bushy plants all around it?

Bug, that's a really lovely narcissus. Not sure if I've got that one, or just one that looks very similar, but it's such a sweet, innocent looking flower - really

I planted some Eremurus last year. It overwintered just fine, and the blossoms were lovely, but the stems needed staking. The foliage was nice at first, but looked very bad most of the summer - mildewy and progressively shriveled. I'd definitely hide the foliage!

I know it's not really my turn, but I'd like to suggest snow crocus. It's the first thing to bloom in my garden and opens in the sun and closes in low light levels. I have it and Iris reticulata (which I also love) planted in microclimate pockets that warm early. I find the cooler air temperatures keep the flowers around longer that those that bloom later in the season. The crocus is smaller that the later-blooming vernal crocus and comes in orange, pale yellow/cream, white, and blue-purple.

nhbabs, thanks for volunteering. Here in FL there is some kind of crocus that pops up all over people's lawns. I'm not sure of the variety, they are very light pink, and dont seem to cluster, just single plants popping up all over.
Well, the next name pulled out of the mug is...

ego

OK, looks like everyone is as busy as I am. Hate to let my sister down, as I said I would check this board every day, but alas, Tomorrow starts two (2) weeks of the state high stakes testing. The pressure and stress is sooooo heartbreaking. I teach 5th grade, I had 2 boys crying on Friday over something really insignificant, but you know it's the pressure of these D**** tests. They are so worried they wont be able to go to middle school with their friends. I've been in meetings all week signing my life away that I wont look at the test, etc. Now I have to turn in a seating chart of my testing environment, signing that they were 3 feet apart and not able to cheat. Sorry for rambling, but I really get angry, our politicians have forgotten these are children and not all children are college material.

I'm going to give the next two (2) names, because this will really be a busy week....

first....triciae
then... hostabuff

thanks for letting me vent, hope everyone has a great week. It is starting to look like spring here, so the next couple of weeks should be great.
Patty

Sorry to go off-topic, but I have another take on the standardized tests. One of my kids was a "non-academic" type, partly because of a hearing impairment. I found that the tests, established recently in our state, helped him quite a bit. In the past, this kind of kid was simply written off early in their school careers, since they weren't expected to do anything to make their school proud (like scoring well in the SATs, or getting into good colleges). The testing helps keep these kids from being completely ignored by the schools, since their test scores count in the overall school assessment. It needs to be done with great sensitivity, but it can be done well, and when it is, everyone benefits.

Back to early spring flowers - nhbabs, I love the small early crocus too. Can we line the path with those and with scilla (siberian squill)? It will make a river of blue in very early spring, multiplying quickly.

OK. I will go. I love the idea of the Scilla. It is such a pretty color blue. I used to have a stone well in my back yard when I lived in New Hampshire and it had a 3 foot band of Scilla around the base.

The Scilla is my inspiration for the next suggestion. Once that blue color and bulbs go past I would want something else along the walk/path....what better than an aromatic plant that sends up a wafting spicy smell when you walk by. I suggest two varieties of creeping thyme (the low growing variety) that will act like a ground cover teasing the path with its dense foliage and beautiful early summer bloom. Thymus praecox 'Ruby Glow' for rich ruby red carpet. Combine this with Thymus praecox 'Albus'-- the white complimenting the red. Each plant over time will spread 18-20". Therefore I suggest two to three plants, alternating sides in 5 places along the walkway.

no time to stop and chat, it's...

1. IdaBean and then Vtskiers

It hit 80 degrees today, the oak pollen is covering everything, sinus medicine being taken by one and all.

I haven't been here in at least a week. I think we are choosing spring bulbs, yes?
Any "wild" tulip (they are not collected in the wild by reputable bulbsellers) The waterlily tulip, some intense orage-red ones: These are only about 6 inches tall, bloom later than crocuses, often have mottled leaves (which decay quickly) and open up fully :in the sunshine really, they yawwwnnnn.

I don't plant the big crocuses anymore because it invariably rains and rains when they are in bloom, and they look like mucus.

HOwever, the little "wild" ones have sturdy little blossoms.

idabean

What a week, only one more week of state testing, then it's spring break. The weather has been soooo strange, record highs and now they are talking about record lows, tornado warnings lasting for hours, and oak pollen covering everthing with yellow powder. That's been life in FL this week.
IdaBean, your term of mucus gave me a gross visual lasting for quite awhile!
Up next is...
Cady and then Solana
Have a great weekend!