Hi Eric - I'm a couple of hours east of you, on the south side of Raleigh (zone 7b). My yard is only an acre and a half but every square inch of it is garden. I've only been at this location for 2 years, before that I was 15 minutes further east in Garner in a large inner town lot which was mostly deep shade. I grow a lot of the freaky stuff but most of what I have now is small and not big enough to fruit or take cuttings off of. I've been gardening most of my life but this is the first time that I have completely nose dived into hard core food production. I drive up to Afton VA. to Edible Landscaping nursery once a year and a lot of what I grow comes from them (it's only 4 hours away). I have also planted some of the stranger fruits from One Green World out on the west coast. I grow a lot of the super tropicals from seeds collected from fruit I buy at the local asian market. One of my successes that I will be able to share soon is 'Cumberland' Black Raspberry. I started out with two plants and now that I have them in full sun they are monsters that out perform all the other cane crops. The flavor is very blackberry ish. Bumper crops, no spraying, no disease, but lots of management due to aggressive growth.

Scott, some of the things you say confuse me. If you are tasting your apples, what are you looking for? Here's what I look for: A bittersweet will be totally bitter and totally sweet, without any acidity whatsoever. A bittersharp will be totally bitter and acidic, but the sugar content can be all over the map here. So it's more like a culinary or dessert apple with lots of bitterness that you can't taste until the bitter compounds hit the back of your mouth and throat. I think pure bitters are essentially non-existent. A sweet will be essentially sugar, without any acidity, e.g. essentially tannin free. Eating one is a rather odd experience, it's like eating an acidless lime or acidless orange, like sugar water. A sharp is your average culinary and dessert apple. Even Golden delicious falls into the sharp category. The whole point of these categorizations is so that I can combine the proper ratios of sweet to sharp, to bitter. (the latter usually about 10%) So regarding bittersweets, it means you don't want any "sharp" component to it. If you taste a good bittersweet, it will taste bitter and sweet, with no acidity. I have not heard of apples loosing their bitterness as a result of high heat, but I suppose that's possible. I would expect that they will just have a higher sugar content, that's all, and you will therefore need to reduce the amount of pure sweets you add to your cider batches. So now that we have the technical details out of the way, I highly recommend "Amere de Berthecourt", it's a bittersweet apple, incredibly prolific and vigorous fantastic bittersweet in the purest sense - e.g. there isn't a trace of sharpness in it. I grow it here in California and it's got plenty of bitter tannins in it. You bite into it, and you think at first it's totally bland, until the bitter tannins hit the back of your mouth, at which point it's very difficult to actually swallow. This is the effect that you want. This apple originates from Maine-et-Loire, France and it is available in the US. The french selections are infinitely superior to the British apples, mainly because they have been selected for their precociousness. Kingston Black is pretty much a wild apple, it's not worthy as a cider apple because it is such a shy bearer. If you were making cider commercially, you'd go broke if you tried to grow kingston black. A few notes on heat: heat doesn't necessarily increase the sugar contents in apples - usually the onset of Winter cold does a much better job at drawing the sugars into the apples. So if you're trying to increase the bitterness content to add the "body" to the cider, then heat is in your favor because it will keep the sugars from building too high, that is, as long as the variety in question isn't heat sensitive - e.g. it doesn't go mealy from hot weather. The trouble with some British apples is that they do go mealy from heat exposure. Amere de B. is an early apple, so it will ripen when it's still warm out, and therefore not draw the sugars as much. And it appears to be very heat resistant, e.g. it doesn't go mealy. Now here's an interesting note on tannins: my understanding of tannins is that tannins contribute all sorts of flavors, not just bitters. So you can have a high level of tannins yet have no bitterness at all. What is strange is that the technical classifications according to Barker's Classification of Cider Apples (LARS 1903) is as follows: Sharp Acid More than 0.45% Tannin less than 0.2% Bittersharp Acid more than 0.45% Tannin more than 0.2% Bittersweet Acid less than 0.45% Tannin more than 0.2% Sweet Acid less than 0.45% Tannin less than Yet you take an apple like "Amere de Berthecourt" which is clearly a bittersweet, you have BRIX 15.0 Acid 0.23% PH 4.08 Tannin 0.169% Average weight per apple: 82g So it's low on acidity, yet the tannin levels are still below 0.2%. According to the classification, it would be a sweet, but it's actually a bittersweet, I've tasted it, it's definitely very bitter. Then take Taylor's sweet, it has a malic acid content of 0.18% but the tannins are close to Amere de B at 0.14%. What I am trying to say with this is that the bitterness is not necessarily correlated to the tannin contents, and that bitterness is likely to not be affected by heat, it's only the amount of sugar and malic acid that changes as a function of heat, thus making it seem that an apple might have more or less tannins. I've attached a link for Cider apple compositional data. But I don't think the data is all that helpful in determining which one has the highest bitterness tannins, because the measurement is for tannins as a whole, not just those tannins that contribute to bitterness. Here is a link that might be useful: Cider Apple Compositional Data

I know We-Du Nursery has had them in the past - they're in the NC mountains, but I am not sure of the exact address. They've been in business long enough that they should have a web site, where you can find out if they ship. Sandy Mush Herbs in Leicester NC, does ship and I think they have native azaleas - maybe only little ones though. Try Niche or Plants Delight, or Woodlanders in Aiken, who should certainly have them as they specialize in natives. A number of the local nurseries here do carry them, but I doubt most of them ship. If I can think of any other sources, I'll come back.

Not trying to get into the wintersow vs. not wintersow debate here but....... The only time it makes sense to wintersow is when you are sowing seeds needing cold stratification and I know some of the ones you listed do not need it. I sowed the Asceplsis incarnata in early August and plan to put them in the ground under mulch all winter. I am winter sowing some native shrub seeds needing a couple months of cold strat. in pots outdoors and three others that are perennials that specifically need it. There are no hard fast rules to this. To each his own. I rather enjoy sowing indoors in winter and have had very good results and it gives me an uplift in winter to do that. I have had good head starts on healthy plants this way and have sowed many SW shrubs, perennials, ornamental grasses, cactus, etc. I always have something indoors in winter I am sowing. I usually start them in October or November in a large sunny S. exposure window and grow them very cool in the coldest dark months sort of in a wait pattern, then let them get warm again in late Feb when the sun comes stronger. I use lights sometimes if necessary but usually they just sit there in the cold. I am not a wintersower to the degree popularized to a hobby level of lots of containers with holes, lids etc craze with every seed I get being done that way. I just use regular pots in the shade under the carport for the seeds specifically needing a cold period. For penstemons its good, they come up when its still very cold. Some seeds needing cold I direct sow. Sometimes I experiment and try all different ways to see what does best with a backup supply to resow in spring. Look up your different varieties and see what they need and go from there. I have sowed seeds as early as October and had established plugs to put into the ground come spring. Other times I put the late summer sown seedlings in the ground in late fall and cover them with leaf mulch and had good well rooted starts that way in spring. Look at nature, she does that all the time with seeds that have fallen. Mostly, make it fun for yourself and do what you want. Save extra seeds for insurance, or try multiple ways and experiment. Do a test in a damp paper towel with a few seeds to see if they sprout in a few days. Often that will tell you want you need to know.