I am in my first year too. In fact, I just had my first market last Saturday. I am starting small and most likely staying small.

How are you doing with it?

I live on a double lot and most of the yard will be in production by next year. If I do expand I will just snag the use of another lot in town.

Last week we had a full stall but I am not so sure about this week (depends on blooming!), so I totally understand what you mean about feeling you have a meagre amount. Luckily, our market has big sellers and smaller sellers so there is a space for everyone.

I am looking forward to read the other responses you get.

is there a waiting list for your market? if not and you can sell there then there's no reason not to go unless the value of what you bring is i started out with a lot of land and found a market. this was more than 20 years ago and i'm still selling at the same market. find somewhere you can put up a high tunnel or 2.

We just purchased our land last yr. 20 acres total. I didn't do a market garden this yr. With the drought I knew it would be a HUGE challenge. The only real thing that was harvested of our land was our johnson grass. We will have pears & citron mellons in the fall, but everything else couldn't handle 2 straight months of 100 degree temps this early into the summer.

Next yr I do plan to do 1 acre of a variety of stuff. I LOVE to garden & I want to sell eggs at the market. It isn't worth driving to sell stuff if I am only selling eggs. Plus I plan on seling at a flea market where I will be able to sell day old chicks & guineas with prodcue & eggs.

Around here farmers do lease land to grow & sell produce. But for me personally I need to be close to my garden!

I have been leasing some land 3.5 miles away and expanding each year. I am ready to buy a farm but hubby says no.

My first year at market was challenging too but I actually had a ton of produce and it took awhile to establish customers. The next year I did CSAs and a market and then had too little produce.

I inherited my land and there was no waiting list. I started with 1/4 acre and built up to 5-7 acres, alittle each year. I also started small on the booth size, 10x20 and increased to 20x20, until this year. This year, we are running 5 different market/days.

I recommend starting out small and increasing as you learn.

Marla

I stared with a 25' x 75' "market" garden. It was by far the largest garden I had ever attempted at the time. My display at market was horrible-no table, no baskets, no way to weigh produce and no EZ-UP. I had no clue what I was doing (and no on-line resources as even this site, pretty much the oldest on the web was not yet in existence and I do not believe Growing For Market had been started).

Grossed around $850 the first year and probably spent $2000. So made no money but had a lot of fun and got hooked on it and I still do this 17 years later

Year two we increased the market garden to an acre and started down the path of Organic certification, bought some tables and an EZ-Up shelter and made much more money (and I knew we did because I also started keeping records on what we made and spent)

moon1234, you did alot of research and spent alot of time answering this question.

One thing you did not mention was, that IF you are planning on having acres in vegetables, check into what it will cost you in labor, if you can find it. In my area, labor is not available, or at least not willing to work for what I can pay. Also, you will need all the paperwork for the employees that need to hire. Not having proper paperwork for your workers can put you Out of business very fast.

Marla

Moon1234,

Where are you located? It sounds like you have a great market to sell too. One thing I find funny, I probably am going to give up broccoli next year, at least in the spring. It never sells. I always bring it home. I have beautiful 1-1.5 pound heads and I can't give them away here in North Central Kansas.

After this year, I agree on the black plastic mulch thing. I planted part of my garden with it, experiment, and the rest without. Which part am I still happily picking and occasionally weeding, the mulched on. Which one do I need to mow off with the mower, the other! Everything is going mulched next year. Yes, I will have to lay it all by hand, but it will save so much time in the long run! Maybe I can get a mulch layer in a few years.

I disagree on one thing beans. Yes you can almost always sell out, but at what cost? It takes forever and a day to pick them by hand. I have found that zucchini is a much better money maker when you consider the time involved with picking. I can pick a 200-300 plant planting in 30-45 minutes and if you time your plantings right, sell out each time.

Also, if you move into high tunnel production, you will see that you won't need as many acres. Also you can produce more when other don't have anything. In my Opinion, if you are a series small time produce, high tunnels are the only way to go. You can beat much larger operations to market and sell at higher prices.

Just my thoughts,

Jay

Moon good advice but I find that I can make my sole living from a 4 acre market garden and have done so for the past 12+ years. You do not need 50 acres.

Lucy, perhaps after a few more years Moon1234 can make a living on less acreage also. As you know, it takes time to establish those precious customers. Believe me, starting over with a whole new customer base, isn't easy. Our sales are about 10-15% of last year, and I think most of it is re-establishing our customer base.

Marla

Thanks very much for the replies, especially moon1234. Lots of good advice there. I'm saving this page for sure. We started going to the market to 'test' our customers a bit. In just one day, we managed to make a slew of mistakes - pricing stuff too high, not having enough variety, etc, and the uncontrollable factor of being new and unknown.

Thanks moon1234 that was very helpful.

Slimy Okra - I'm in the same boat. Waiting list for markets, some markets closed to new vendors (unless you have something really unique), and $125-$200 stall fee (plus $50 for each named insured with my company). I started hundreds of tomato and pepper seeds just b/c we like them, but then 1 market called at Easter with an opening so I jumped to get my foot in the door. May have been a mistake. Spring was cool (except couple of 90-degree days early June) and WET, July was hot and DRY and now it's cool and wet again. First frost is only 6 weeks away (I hope).

Market started June 3 and I went for the first time just last week. Today will be my 2nd day at market (if it doesn't rain too hard - I don't have an EZ UP, just patio umbrella and base, and a small folding table).

I've got 75 indeterminate tomatoes 1000ft from the house, soil is too acid and too low in N to have them take off, though the growing tips look healthy and I've got a few fruit. But 9 tomatoes off 12 cherry tom plants is not what I had planned for a harvest ;-). Been battling EB since June, it eased off during July but is back again on a lot of the plants even though there is not much foliage (I suckered while still in pots - went from 4" to 8" and even 3 gal pots while waiting for the ground to dry out in June).

Yellow pears are very bushy (pH in that row is 6.0, others are lower) and lots of green fruit. Glaciers near the house are in better soil (along with 2 heirloom that got mixed in - BW?) and I've picked almost 7 lbs off 7 plants but most is split. Took the nice ones to market last week (only 1 pint) and no one even looked at them - too small? Of course, I only sold cukes, zukes and berries - no one looked at yellow squash or serranos either.

So I'm not even going to make the $125 market fee this year (though I may make the $50 insurance certificate). I wonder if planting hot peppers was a mistake?

Hang in there, the first year is very hard to establish yourself.

Thanks - after 2 weeks at market I've made almost enough for my insurance certificate. Maybe by the end of Sept/market I can make enough to cover the market fee after all (though not seeds, potting soil, drip irrigation, gas, and insurance and forget about the 10-yr old pickup truck DH bought me for Mother's Day) LOL!

Shelly

It takes over a year, to start to re-coop your expenses, before you can actual begin to have a profit.

I'm not hoping to recoup all the expenses this year (or even next), just trying to get enough in gross sales in the 1st 2 yrs to keep the sales tax exemption so I don't have to pay retroactive tax on everything (incl the truck)! Supposed to be $2500/yr but they say you don't have to do that the 1st year - I'm not even close!

Hope the weather is better so I have more/earlier yield next year.

My first year was only $1700 and at that time, Indiana did not have any exemption that you mentioned. Still don't.

Marla

ajsmama,

I hear you. I actually had to step back and re-evaluate, because I found that I was becoming too exhausted to focus on my job and the market garden simultaneously. And that's just with a sub-acre garden. So far, I've made enough to pay about half the market fees, and that's it. Next year, I'm going to bite the bullet and work half-time so I can devote more attention to the market garden.

Slimy - is that really cost-effective? Maybe you should keep your day job ;-) DH is always asking if he can quit, I tell him No! I've only sold about $50 worth of produce/jam this year, Irene could wipe me out (except for the jam I've already made and can sell next month), I can't sell pickles (even if I make green tomato pickles) so maybe I'll have to make green tomato jam next week!

I have been market gardening for 7 years now. The first 2 were very hit and miss. I wasn't sure what I was doing, then I just jumped in and decided to do it. I started small. Most stuff was the common garden items one planting of each. Then more ground was tilled, more garden, larger plantings. Then some small high tunnels, then 6 high tunnels.

It is a hard job, but very rewarding. What other job gives you all the food you can eat? What started off as a hobby has turned into a year around business. We use to use our profits as extra money for fun, now it is the only way we get our bills paid each month.

Now that school has started, it is really hard. I have lots to plant more to prep and even more to weed. However, I will find a way, I always do!

Jay

I really enjoy gardening/selling, the whole aspect of it. I would prefer to do it full time, but the inherent risk associated with it means I might keep at least a half-time job for the first few years. Jay, I don't know how you do it - the teaching and huge market garden at the same time!

The other thing that drives me towards keeping a half-time job is the dental and health coverage.

As to acerage, it will really depend on your family. I have seven children so my family needs are a smidge higher than most.

As to 50 acres that was what my projection was. Around 10-15 acres of veggies, the rest would be grains. My father farms around 120 acres in corn, soybeans, etc. part time for extra income. He has been selling sweet corn at a roadside stand for the last 17 years so we sort of had an outlet besides the market the first year.

We have been profitable from year one, but again we sort of had a market. I could not survive on market sales alone. Institutional customers are really where the REAL market is.

I am in the Madison, WI area within 2 miles of the city proper so I am in the right location.

Our first year we made around $1700 profit after expenses. This year we will make around $10K profit after expenses. We are shooting for between $20K-25K next year. With a large family I have five people who are old enough to do meaningful amounts of work.

Now if I grew an acre of garlic that would be $10-20K profit or more, but I don't have an outlet for it. Melons sell really well. I had people calling the house in late october looking for them. ha ha. They were long plowed under at that point.

DO NOT quit your job until you can replace your income FULLY, INCLUDING health ins. For me that would mean I would need to be able to make around $80K from the farm. It is doable, but I am not to that point yet. I don't do loans if I can avoid it. My father allows me to borrow equipment (tractors, plows, disc, etc.) in exchange for free produce. Fine with me.

I purchased a used Mulch layer this year. I will be buying a new Rain-Flo 1600 waterwheel transplanter next year. I also need a larger greenhouse, more flats, a Jang seeder for the small stuff.

My wife is insistent I put in at a minimum 1/3 acre asparagus. We are upping our 600 strawberry plant trial to 3000 plants. Still not a lot, but for us it is a jump. These are day neutrals. We also plan on planting June bearing next fall.

In some ways it has been nice to have free access to land and equipment. It has made us profitable from day one. I hope to have enough money to buy the 80 acre farm from Dad when he needs the money. I honestly don't know how people who don't know a farmer and don't have a lot of saved cash can start farming. I love the lifestyle, but it would kill me to pay a banker for the next 30 or more years.

My parents always made me cost justify everything, even when I was a kid. They never loaned me anything. I always had to pay something. I am doing the same thing with my kids. They all love helping. Picking strawberries is everyones favorite.

As to profit on green beans? I bought $18 worth of seed and picked $1200 worth of beans. Pretty good return on my money I thought. It was a lot of work. We just planted four rows 230' long. Essentially dumped the seed in the corn planter and away we went. I could have sold a LOT more. If I could find a cheap used bean picker I would go that route. They are hard to find though, especially in the north. Beans also provide profit to me when I am not picking other crops. Cukes and summer squash can make a lot of money, but they also require picking AND a market for them. I plan on increasing this next year.

I ALWAYS got $2.50/lb for green and $3/lb for yellow beans the whole season. Good money for beans. If you get five people in the field you can pick the four rows of 230' long in a little under 2 hours. Put the cultivator on the tractor once every two weeks and hit the weeds, done.

Thanks to the more experienced MG's for posting. Good thread.
Moon, that was a great read for me.
This is just a great forum!
Russell

Moon1234,

It sounds like you have some lofty goals, good for you! GO for it. It sounds like you have a clear plan.

I agree with you, I don't know how you would start off farming without help. I get lots of help from people for tillage. I don't own a tractor, but I know that I can call some people and get one here. Also, don't forget about renting. In two hours, and $85, I was able to till up my 1/2 acre winter squash patch.

I am hoping to lay more plastic mulch this year, but it will be laid by hand. Our longest rows are 100 feet, so it isn't that bad, but it saves so much time it is worth the effort.

If you really want to crank up production and profits, look into putting up a high tunnel (or more). We have 6 and I want to put up 1 or 2 more.

Two years ago, the cucs and zucs were a bust, but the beans were awesome. We planted 7 planting during the year, every three weeks. I only can plant 200-250 row feet, at a time, and get them harvested.

This year I better luck with zucchini and cucumbers. I ran out of them almost every week. We will be planting more plantings next year.

Jay

We don't have a tractor & not sure if we will buy one any time soon. The guy that bales our hay does most tractor work we need. If he cant get to it when we desire, then there is a local full service gas station that rents his tractor for $20-$25 an hour depending on how long you need it. He goes off the hour gauge not the time that you have the tractor. Can't justify purchasing a tractor when we can rent it that cheap! He doesn't advertise, so ask around you might be surprised what you find.

Farmers biggest hurdle is the initial capital outlay that makes efficiency and economy of scale possible. For beginning growers, the key is to work incrementally, take on no new debt, and reinvest as much as possible into becoming more streamlined. After a few years (maybe 5), you should be at a point where you aren't so stressed. And that's why the second biggest hurdle is persistence.

The tractor that we bought costs us equivalent to 1 weeks rental. Well worth it, but it take us about 8 years before we got the tractor. I agree, don't take on debt, it's just more stress and Mother Nature will give you enough.

Marla

I have been mostly lurking here for the last few months toying with the idea of starting a market garden.

I started out this year with a 4-family subscription garden, with the money being paid up front. Without the up-front money and the free use of someone's land, tractor and tools, I would not have been able to do it. I also found some great deals for free and used stuff on craigslist. I am expanding to 8 shares this Spring, allowing me to pay for the supplies to expand the garden and use about an eighth of an acre for market. Like some of the other posters I have a full-time job. Fortunately, I'll have 3 full days to devote to the garden this Spring.

Labor and associated costs seems like the biggest hurdle to expanding and making farming full-time. Here in Texas we have plenty of day-laborers hanging around, but I am weary of bringing them into the garden. Family(free) labor seems like the best option or offering garden "work" shares maybe. I notice some of the established farms offer internships for cheap labor. Personally, the business side seems like the hardest part, yet the key to success. Many of the successful growers I've noticed have diverse marketing strategies. Since I live in a metro area, I can try different things and see what works here. The CSA or subscription garden is great for up-front capital though.

Thanks again for sharing your experience and ideas. I've stole so many(all) ideas from grower websites, books, and forums like this. Yesterday, I used some seed sources recommended here and saved a lot of money.

The irony of it all. I sold my tractor to be able to get supplies to make money from small scale farming.

glad we could help, I think that's why most of us are here, to help each other.

if it was a large tractor, you're better off. Many of us worked without a tractor, but if you want to grow on 5 acres or more, fin another one.

Marla

The tractor thing is kind of a joke! It was a beast and had no PTO...had become a cost benefit/depreciating asset problem once construction of roads and building were done. Something in the 30HP range with a loader and PTO would be nice.

Back to the chicken or the egg...
I gave 50 beautiful watermelons away my first year, didn't sell one. Lots of eggplant tomatoes, peppers etc. too! This year I sold on consignment, to restaurants, word of mouth, and did 3 different FM venues. I don't have enough stuff to sell.

While I do like/agree with Shakespeare's view that "borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry",I am not sure borrowing should necessarily be taboo for incipient market grower phenoms... After it has been proven that;

*One can successfully and legally grow/make lots of awesome foods,flowers, jams,baked goods etc.
*Prove an excess of local demand for what they have.
*Make pertinent relationships and see blatant potential for more.

Cautious/thoughtful borrowing could make sense for some.
"It takes money to make money" probably applies to some degree, unless a workable farm falls into your lap. When I sell my tractor or use other income to buy supplies, I am borrowing from my household in a sense, but spending more than I am making from farming is crucial to creating a viable and profitable job of farming in a reasonable time. If we didn't have the resources, I would borrow, modestly, within reason, to do that. For a small market grower this really doesn't appear to represent much money or downside risk vs. the likely cash flow benefits of getting things rolling.

My two cents.
Russell

this is my first year CSA and market garden and pricing and record keeping is my biggest worry.
Also how to reach an amount of seed to plant for x number of shares etc.
Any help is appreciated

Catherwood, there are several seed catalogs that give yields for certain amount of seeds. There are also websites that have how many plants per family of certain sizes. Where ever you find that information, I would only expect 1/2 of what they say. This would allow for less than perfect ground and weather.

Here's a link for number of seeds/plant per family of four.
http://gardening.about.com/od/vegetable1/a/How-Much-Plant_2.htm

Here's one for yield, for KY
http://pubs.ext.vt.edu/426/426-331/426-331_pdf.pdf

Marla

Funny... here in the East Texas NW Louisiana area there are so many small Farmers markets trying to start up and not enough vendors. I never have to pay anything. The market managers are just happy to have someone show up.

To answer the real question- I bought my land with the intention of one day putting it all under cultivation. I a now there. I will say, however, I changed my plans. I quit with the usual vegtables ect. To much work for one guy to mess with and work a full time job then risk not having them sell because everyone else is selling the same thing. I switched to berries...Black and Blue. I put in several acres and now it is paying off. I can not keep up with the demand. Picking is Hellish but only for a few weeks and then I am done. Sure, I grow other stuff, mostly just to haul it along with my eggs and Honey. Mostly goofy things that amuse me and no one else has. I do sell a lot of eggs...about 60 doz a week.

I have seen many more markets coming on board, and the new ones are usually free or very cheap the first few years. The market that I started out has been in operation since 1865, almost 150 years. Those are NOT typos. Last year, they charged $300 per car space, approximately 10x20 for 1 day per week. If you paid for that space you were also allowed to market 2 other days for free, of course those days the sales were almost nothing.

Everyone thinks gardening is easy, and all marketers are only bringing in the 'excess' from their gardens. Right!?

Marla