Don't see why not. Or you could line the hole with newspaper, burlap, something that would degrade over time, and fill the hole with fresh soil. It's what I plan to do when/if one of my in ground hosta shows signs of HVX.

are you seriously so space limited.. that you just cant let a hole lay fallow for a year ????

you be the first.. let us know how that all works out ...

have you considered moving some other perennial into that hole.. and planting the hosta where that plant was???

ken

I'm not sure if you are addressing Peggy, or me, Ken, but I'll answer as if you are talking to me.

Yes, I am that space challenged, to be honest...and now "they" are advising not to plant another hosta in a spot where you removed an infected HVX one, ever. I think I have already said this in a similar thread, but I personally do not like the look of most perennials not planted in groups. Therefore, unless I can stick 3-5 other perennials in the spot where ONE removed hosta was, the wannabe garden designer me ain't gonna be happy. And even if I could, three dwarf astilbes probably aren't going to be as pleasing to me as one nice hosta, quite frankly.

I have yet to see anything that says Hosta with virus X can infect another hosta without it's sap coming into direct contact with the clean hosta. I simply do not believe it's that hard to keep that from happening, so I'd be willing to risk another hosta in that hole, with certain precautions as described above.

Not this gardener! If I ever find that one of my hosta are infected, it will be trashed appropriately and the hole will either be left empty, or another perennial will be planted there. I'm just not willing to take the chance on repeatedly infecting perfectly otherwise healthy plants. Not to sound crass, but it sounds a little ignorant to me to be so careless.

I have to ask....You are truly willing to plant and replant in that same hole, and lose plant after plant? Where is the sense in this? What do you plan to achieve by doing this?

If you only like "plants in groups" and wouldn't be able to plant just "one", stick a rock in it's place.

Cricket, please explain, how I would lose "plant after plant" if I put a barrier of some type- be it newspaper, spinout bag fabric, or plastic pot between the roots of the new hosta and the empty hole which used to contain an infected hosta but now probably contains tiny fragments of it's roots. Please explain how the virus could be transmitted without direct sap to sap contact.

I would like someone- anyone- to explain, how the virus could be transmitted in such a circumstance. Tell me why I should not replant in the same spot with a barrier of some type and fresh soil.

Cricket I think you should reread what Peggy was thinking of doing - are you familiar with what a spin-out bag is used for....controlling root zones. What Peggy is suggesting is not that unreasonable at all.

Paul

Yes, what Peggy has said is not unreasonable.
I am familiar with the spin out bags.
I do not believe that news paper or anything of the like would be reasonable.

First, I would like to say that the thread regarding HVX "not being a threat" was a thread by Jon who was ONLY trying to explain how that threat could be minimized, ie. removing HVX infected hostas when they were dead since the virus is ONLY viable in LIVING tissue. He was trying to calm our fears that HVX was uncontrollable in our hosta gardens. The issue that needs to be clarified for some hostaholics is whether HVX can exist without a living host.

I also have to say that like Coll 123 I had a vision of what I wanted my hosta garden bed design to look like. I had 3 recently planted Krossa Regal that showed signs of HVX. I removed them and removed more soil than the hostas could have contaminated and planted 3 more KRs. I have also used newspaper to kill grass in new planting beds and have been amazed at how long it takes to decompose the layers. Decomposition depends on the number of layers of newsprint used.

I understand everyone's concern about wrong information getting to the uninformed BUT I also think that it is up to the individual gardener to decide what risks he/she is willing to take and how he/she will minimize that risk.

I like what irawon said about removing soil... if you want to plant there... why not did up a huge area of soil...like as much as you can without disturbing nearby plants... then move the soil somewhere away... then refill with new soil... plant in a spin-out bag... I would say your chances of infection would be like a fraction of a fraction of a percent...
John

I basically and logically do not understand why anyone with proper precaution in tools and soil may not plant a new hosta into an empty, isolated and healthy hole. What the rules are for is not to replant into the SAME SOIL with SAME TOOLS! These rules are not for planting into a clean hole.

(I start this with spraying the leaves of the HVX - or any other virus- hosta with Roundup and let the leaves dry up). That is, dig as deep and wide as there is no longer any HVX hosta debris, then remove a few more inches of soil. Throw the hosta and debris into garbage, throw any other soil into faraway landscape where it can rest for several years or discard into garbage too. Wash up, place used tools into a bucket with 10-20% bleach. Now use new tools. Line the hole with landscape fabric or 4 layers of newspaper. Fill the hole with new soil and new amendments. Now you have a clean environment to plant a new hosta in.
Why not? Any logical comments?
Bernd

That might work fine Bernd, but it might not. We know that the virus has been detected in microscopic plant parts and root parts for as long as two years. How long does it take the newspaper to break down? I'm sure it's not impervious for two years. What about landscape fabric? Do you know what can pass through and what can't? I don't.

I think what you are doing reduces the chances of reinfection. I don't know if it eliminates it. I don't think anyone knows this for certain. If it were me I wouldn't be planting my $35 Lakeside Fancy Pants in that hole. But I think each gardener has their own situation and knows how much risk they are willing to take.

The only thing that is 100% certain to not have a reinfection is to not plant a Hosta there.

Steve

But Steve, last research I heard, you still must have direct sap to sap contact for the virus to be transmitted. Even if you have remaining root particles after a few years, how is the sap from those particles going to reach the sap of the others hosta roots? Logically, I do not see how this is possible. Until they tell me HVX can be transmitted though water or air, I feel the risk is quite minimal in this situation. I probably wouldn't plant a rare or expensive hosta there either, but I would plant another hosta with some kind of barrier and then I would sit back and enjoy my garden.

Col,

I understand that. I'm not sure what is happening either. But I do know that if you put another Hosta in that hole without bleaching and barriers and such, it likely would get infected. That's a fact. Do you know how? I don't. But it happens.

Steve

Someone here (tj = tsuga junkie?) posted that he had a healthy hosta growing for 5 years now in a hole lined with 4 layers of newspaper. I have a healthy H.'Krossa Regal' growing in a hole with clean soil, minus newspaper.
Otherwise, it is a good experiment. Bernd

Steve, no I don't know how that happens, but would be interested to read more if there is research on that topic. I was looking at the older thread Paul posted about Dr. Lockharts address and he said that two of twenty hostas became infected when planted in a hole where an infected one was removed. I would like to know more about how those experiments were carried out. i.e. was the infected hosta taken out and a new one plunked down right away? Was the hole left full of roots? Were all the new hostas the same cultivar and from the same source? Why were the other 18 not infected etc. I would assume they are continuing to research this issue and I will be interested when those findings are published.

God knows I love to do little garden experiements myself, but I'm hoping I will never get the chance! Look, to each their own. I just take slight offense at being called ignorant or careless because I don't view the risk the same as someone else.

Coll,

I hope I've not given you that impression, because I don't feel that way at all.

2 out of 20 is 10%. If you are doing this replanting in the fall, that might reduce the percentages even more.

Here's a guess at how plants get infected from being planted in a hole that had a virused plant. I don't believe it is possible to remove all of the plant and root parts from a hole. There are some that are too small to see. You just can't be sure unless you remove an enormous amount of soil (like an 8 foot diameter circle that is two feet deep). I don't think anyone is doing that unless they are using heavy equipment. Since there are microscopic plant parts there that are infectious, all it takes is a crack in a root of the new plant to cause an infection. The process of planting a new plant is bound to cause some injury, however minor, to the roots of a plant. Just taking something out of a pot or moving it from one spot to another or handling a bare root plant can cause wounds or cracks that we would not even notice. That's how plants might become infected. I don't *know* this, but it just makes sense to me.

If you are going to plant in a hole that was previously infected, then doing what Bernd did makes sense. It just still makes me feel very uneasy.

Steve

Steve, no, it was not your comment I took offense to. I agree that it is difficult to remove all the root debris- more or less difficult, depending on the hosta being removed, of course. Like I said, it sounds like more research is being done on this topic so I'm sure we'd all be interested in the findings. Going on what we've been told so far, replanting with a root barrier is an ok option for me- I only have about 115 hosta or so, many of which are in pots because I don't even have enough room in the beds for all of them. So losing a spot in the garden beds for a hosta is for me, not an option.

Lakeside Fancy Pants.. lol

Another two cents worth from someone who has difficulty throwing away any nice plant material. You can't live life worried about negative possibilities. I would never leave my house or cross a street if I lived in constant fear of being hit by a car. I TRY to make decisions based on as much information as I can gather NOW and I take precautions and advice from those more experienced than I. BUT that advice has to seem logical to me.

Steve wrote: "We know that the virus has been detected in microscopic plant parts and root parts for as long as two years. How long does it take the newspaper to break down? I'm sure it's not impervious for two years."

Will these microscopic plant parts and root parts have any chance of GROWING INTO a paper - lined hole, which has been replaced by fresh soil? I have a difficult time seeing that as a possibility. I have found 4 layers of newsprint that were not decomposed after one season. If plant parts are MICROSCOPIC would they not decompose quickly?

Does anyone have a link to the study stating that the virus "lived for two years" in "microscopic plant parts".

Regarding my post above, my new Krossa Regals were planted in the same spot as the infected ones in 2007. Five years later they show no signs of HVX.

I intend to conduct my hosta culture on what I know NOW and not based on what MIGHT transpire tomorrow. Right now it appears that the concensus is that HVX is only viable in LIVING plant tissue and that it can only be transmitted by sap from an infected plant to an uninfected plant by MECHANICAL means (infected tools). That does not mean, however, that I don't see the possibility of HVX being transmitted by animals. I can't control them. If it's found out in the future that insects transmit it, then we are all up the same creek because, then we can't control the spread of HVX in our gardens at all.

In the meantime I will TRY to minimize the risk of MY transmitting HVX to healthy hostas.

As always I am open to having my logic examined.

Another two cents worth from someone who has difficulty throwing away any nice plant material. You can't live life worried about negative possibilities. I would never leave my house or cross a street if I lived in constant fear of being hit by a car. I TRY to make decisions based on as much information as I can gather NOW and I take precautions and advice from those more experienced than I. BUT that advice has to seem logical to me.

Steve wrote: "We know that the virus has been detected in microscopic plant parts and root parts for as long as two years. How long does it take the newspaper to break down? I'm sure it's not impervious for two years."

Will these microscopic plant parts and root parts have any chance of GROWING INTO a paper - lined hole, which has been replaced by fresh soil? I have a difficult time seeing that as a possibility. I have found 4 layers of newsprint that were not decomposed after one season. If plant parts are MICROSCOPIC would they not decompose quickly?

Does anyone have a link to the study stating that the virus "lived for two years" in "microscopic plant parts".

Regarding my post above, my new Krossa Regals were planted in the same spot as the infected ones in 2007. Five years later they show no signs of HVX.

I intend to conduct my hosta culture on what I know NOW and not based on what MIGHT transpire tomorrow. Right now it appears that the concensus is that HVX is only viable in LIVING plant tissue and that it can only be transmitted by sap from an infected plant to an uninfected plant by MECHANICAL means (infected tools). That does not mean, however, that I don't see the possibility of HVX being transmitted by animals. I can't control them. If it's found out in the future that insects transmit it, then we are all up the same creek because, then we can't control the spread of HVX in our gardens at all.

In the meantime I will TRY to minimize the risk of MY transmitting HVX to healthy hostas.

As always I am open to having my logic examined.

What Coll suggests makes perfect sense. If you use the AIDS analogy - to transmit it you have to have blood to blood (sap to sap) contact, then the newspaper or spinout bags would be the gloves that prohibit the spread of AIDS.

Also, your new plant won't have open or "broken skin" that will allow the virus to be transmitted into it.

Logic says the risk is very,very small with this method.

JMO

bkay

irawon and bkay, very well said, I agree!

Notice also that neighboring plants do not get the virus when living next to an HVX infected plant, as long as there is no sap exchange. Therefore, when removing the outer perimeter of the infected roots, use a fork carefully to loosen the soil to not injure neighbor's roots.
Bernd

"The process of planting a new plant is bound to cause some injury, however minor, to the roots of a plant. Just taking something out of a pot or moving it from one spot to another or handling a bare root plant can cause wounds or cracks that we would not even notice. That's how plants might become infected. I don't *know* this, but it just makes sense to me."

I agree Steve, but I still have trouble understanding how a two year old "infective" particle leftover from a removed plant can get reinjured, ooze sap, that then must contact a wound on the new hosta, which let's say after two years has just broken past the newsprint barrier. Just seems so unlikely. But I agree- we don't really know how these "infective particles" infect because it seems like all the data is not there in the detail I would like.

That said, I am probably at fairly low risk for any of this even pertaining to me, because I now basically quarantine new plants in pots or spinout bags anyway. I do this because of voles, not HVX, but a side benefit is that I won't have to worry about those pesky roots if I get an infected one because I'll just lift the pot or bag and trash the whole thing.

There is always the chance one of my older hosta that are planted in the ground can start exhibiting symptoms, though. I have had HVX twice- in 2008 and 2009. At first I was in such a panic that the whole garden was going down. And hey, it still might. One was in a pot and the other was replaced by Brunnera, which so kindly gave me nematodes to deal with instead. I WILL say that the infected Halcyon I dug up in 2008 and left in a corner of the yard in a black plastic bag was a revelation. I never got around to tossing it, and when I looked in the bag the following season there were visible roots. So I will say that hosta roots can take a shockinly long time to break down. I will also definitely try the Round up route if there is a next time.

Ira,

This is from the June 2010 summary report based on Dr. Lockhart;s research.

"QUESTION: If HVX can be spread by the described cultivation practices, how long does the virus remain on tools and in soil?
Infected plant material kept in the refrigerator at 39�F (4�C) remained infective for more than nine weeks. Fresh infected plant material was always infective. Soil with HVX plant debris and root material was infective for more than two years. It is necessary to remove all infected live plant debris before reusing soil. Broken roots and plant parts can infect new plants."

And this is what is planned for the next round of research. Unfortunately, we won't have these results until next year.

"AREAS THAT WARRANT FURTHER INVESTIGATION
ïÂÂRoot/soil contamination issues. We found that clean plants could be contaminated by soil and infected debris. We need to study what occurs and why."

This is all from the Hosta Virus X page of the American Hosta Society.

Obviously, most of the peeps posting in this thread know about this virus, are well read on this subject and know how to spot it. The chances of them spreading it outside of or even within their garden is extremely small. I'd be worried about folks doing this barrier thing who did not know enough to disinfect snips in between plants when removing scapes. These people would not know what to look for in identifying the virus or know how to clean their tools, or not to compost their foliage. If you want to take risks that's fine, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

Just my $.02

This photo belongs to Rob Canning.
LS Fancy Pants

Steve

Here is a link that might be useful: AHS HVX page

I don't understand why folks go to the extreme of using the analogy of "I would never leave my house or cross a street if I lived in constant fear of being hit by a car." It's these types of comments that make it almost impossible to have a conversation. If you depend solely on GW for your extend of possible research/info on HVX, there lies your problem. Also, with the above mentioned comment, once someone who thinks like this gets something in their head, its nearly impossible to convince them otherwise. Even WITH documented research containing facts. So I will no longer partake in these kinds of topics here. I just hope you don't decide to share your garden with other collectors. If so, please make it known that you have in fact had a diseased plant. Some hosta can have the HVX virus and never show sighns, or not show signs for many, many years. Good luck on your ventures. "Cheers"

If Peggy is short of space and removed an infected hosta , would it not be possible to bury a large pot in the same place and be safe? I am really new at this hosta discussions but sounds reasonable to me

Peggy...
Since I've met you, I'm quite certain that you are not as stressed out about that hole as some of the responses may have suggested. I think you asked a great question and you got some answers worth considering.

And since I know you have the same info I do, being that you were sitting next to me at Dr. Lockhart's keynote address at the 2010 national convention, may I suggest a different route.

Since your garden is so beautifully integrated with rock outcroppings, rather than go to the expense of spinout bags or the trouble of digging out a hole large enough for it or a bucket or whatever, why not just plant a rock in that spot?

I have 2 infected plants I've needed to remove for a couple years and that's what I intend to do with their spots.

However, I will admit that after removing a diseased 'Sum of All' several years ago, I planted a potted hosta in that hole for a year. I removed the pot and placed the hosta in the hole a couple years ago. And after 2 years, so far so good.

Since Dr. Lockhart is the expert and what he says is rightfully quoted here often, please read this again what he said :

...Soil with HVX plant debris and root material was infective for more than two years. It is necessary to remove all infected live plant debris before reusing soil....

Dr. Lockhart talks about reusing soil. In some threads here we talk about NOT reusing soil, but creating a vessel made of the hole where infection formerly reigned, line that hole and put brand-new soil and a hosta in it. The roots of the new plant will be smaller than the hole and its liner (layers of paper i.e.) and will not contact the liner and the exterior. So even if some roots of the new plants get injured, there is no contact with the virus.
I did this last year with a H.'Krossa Regal', so far so good. Others have done that many years ago with success. I made a mistake last years spreading the virus, am in the process of making 5 holes and correcting my landscape.
Bernd

Hi again, I'm back after the holiday. I am not short of space. I just had the idea of other possibilities to plant where a HVX hosta was. Sometimes people like to make things way to complicated!

"Someone here (tj = tsuga junkie?) posted that he had a healthy hosta growing for 5 years now in a hole lined with 4 layers of newspaper."

Nope, not I. I have been blessed and have not had HVX anywhere.

As to transmission from roots left in the soil, why not via feeder roots of the new plant? Feeder roots, being quite good at absorbing nutrients, would find nutrients left in the root bits of the infected plant quite advantageous.

tj

tj, sorry, in one of the messages above irawon had replaced soil and used newspaper as a barrier and has healthy hostas living there for 5 years. Therefore, there is long-term success in this procedure of removing plant and soil, and establish a new hosta in the same location with new soil.
Bernd

Steve, thanks for taking the time and making the effort to respond to my questions. I may not perceive risk in the same manner that you do but I do respect your opinions and your right to hold views that might differ from my own. AND I love your sense of humour.

Having said that, I did read the material on HVX at the AHS (including the summary report based on Dr. Lockhart's research) several times BEFORE I expressed my opinions above, just to be sure I had my facts straight. I've done a bit more research and I understand that your concerns stem from theories that are not yet confirmed as fact by scientific studies:

"AREAS THAT WARRANT FURTHER INVESTIGATION â¨ïÂÂRoot/soil contamination issues. We found that clean plants could be contaminated BY SOIL and INFECTED DEBRIS. We need to study what occurs and why."

I don't want to belittle your concerns and remember an age when cigarette smoke was not deemed to be a danger to one's health, but I'm of an age now where if I have hostas with confirmed HVX, they may outlive me.

Bernd, this is what I said in my posts above and I'm sorry if they were misleading: "I had 3 recently planted Krossa Regal that showed signs of HVX. I removed them and removed more soil than the hostas could have contaminated and planted 3 more KRs. I have also used newspaper to kill grass in new planting beds and have been amazed at how long it takes to decompose the layers. Decomposition depends on the number of layers of newsprint used."

The three holes with the 3 new Krossa Regals were not lined with newspaper. I just dug out more soil than the newly planted infected KRs could have contaminated. I did use several layers of newspaper to kill grass for a hosta bed extension in 2010. Animals are digging here all the time. Even today I found newspaper dug up by animals that hasn't decomposed yet in my extended hosta bed.

I just wanted to clarify what I said and my position on risk management. My views as stated above have not been changed.