how do you know whent ehy are too deep ....

15 years ago

when i look at pix.. i really study them ...

i often say they look too deep.. but how do i know ....

first... the stalk of the leaf is called the petiole .... all hosta have petioles ...

if i see a pic that looks like a bunch of leaves sticking out of the ground... i start to wonder where the petioles are ...

second ... or B .... having a gut feeling that a given hosta should be fully leafed out and 12 inches high .... but only appears 6 inches tall ... i start to wonder again ...

C .... a plant .. by history provided.. instead of getting larger every year .... seems to be regressing .... crowns are like iris ..... they should basically be at ground level ... it is said .. they need air and drainage.. as much as they need soil .... bury them too deep .... and you can have a negative impact on the vigor or performance of the plant ...

the smaller the hosta.. the more important C is .... esther will say the plant will grow itself into the correct position .. i agree to some extent ... mini and some small will die before they are ever able to do that ... as will poorly divided struggling hosta ....

on the other hand.. if you plant them like tulips.. 6 inches down ... they will all die ...

anyway.. anyone have any before and after pix of such.. or pix of them planted too deep and underperforming?????

has anyone followed our suggestions on such and gone out and dug them up and found the condition ... what is your experience????

ken

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Comments (25)

lindac
15 years ago
I don't think I havepix, but I had aKrossa Regal that wasplanted too deep....and it grew out of the ground....first the center diesand it was a ring of eyes around a depression, and several years later now it's full and huge!

Maybe today my new keyboard will come and I will once again have a space bar that works....maybe!!
Linda C
esther_opal
15 years ago
"esther will say the plant will grow itself into the correct position .. i agree to some extent"
Ken

Great and worthwhile post and question or advice. I stand by my position on this question based on specific conditions. Hosta planted shallow then mulched, BIG BUTT I have NOT looked at this question close enough to be real sure of my understanding even considering my specific experience. Growing in the wild they are subject to constant and yearly accumulation of forest debri or mulch. This still doesn't quite prove that my method in clay soil with mulch on top is as good as I think. May even be that it does work in my clay but would not in your sand?

We need to think and talk about it and if possible bring trials to shine light on the subject.

Anxious to hear from others
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aahostas
15 years ago
Ken ,
In my experience the biggest culprits are moles.I have a H.'Carnival' and a H.'Fried Green Tomatoes that were tunneled through a couple of years ago. They have not recovered as of yet. They are smaller and much later to emerge that their neighbors. I would have to call the appearance "constricted", as they look like they are trying to do well but they cannot.This post has given me the enthusiasm that I need to get out there and re-plant them properly. I have been planting with the crown on a small mound with the roots cascading down the sides.This has given me great results.I have also noticed that the plant will anchor or pull itself down to its optimal growing position. Sounds like another experiment for "Butch The Mad Scientist"! Come on Butch! Get cracking!

Denny
gayle0000
15 years ago
I agree about under-performance when planted too deep & everything you said Ken. No pics to show.

My old place with all my hosta consisted of clay-based soil due to a newer home and topsoil just not there. My biggest problem was always trying to ammend the soil with lots of compost...and then having the problem of the plant settling deeper...like too deep...once the compost and good stuff in the hole settled itself over a good season and winter.

I'm already noticing that phenomena in the first year of putting in new plants (not just hosta) at my new house with yummy good old black soil.

Do you plant high to begin with to allow for the settling? Is that what people do?
Gayle
esther_opal
15 years ago
Really I'm sure there are those amongst us with experience then we could go to planting and photos and results over a period of time.

Your plants were reasonably priced yet I spent more than a fixed income accommodates comfortably. We all have investment in real money and time and learning best practices is worth our time or it is mine.

ThatÂs right IÂm MAD, really mad, I mean IÂm really wound up now, IÂm mad as hell and IÂm not taking this anymore. There are a few plants about to get a real talking to. Get up out of that hole you little brat.
aahostas
15 years ago
I think it is more like you have "GONE MAD" than you are mad!! WE still love you Butch and we are here to help you through your descent to normalcy!

Denny
esther_opal
15 years ago
"we are here to help you through your descent to normalcy!'

Huh, I think I fell asleep on the therapy couch.
flowerchild59
15 years ago
I know 15 years ago or so I planted too shallow on a regular basis and thru many winters here in variable thaws and warm spells in the winter, I have lost many of my older clumps to heaving. It looks like dry rot of the crown.
I salvaged a few hosta crown chunks, bleach water treated them and replanted in a pot.
I now plant my new hostas slightly deeper than I used to. About one inch deep on the crowns on the bigger types and half an inch on the smaller types.
They seem to be doing ok for now.
ctopher_mi
15 years ago
If a hosta is planted deeply in heavy soil then it can struggle from lack of oxygen at the root zone. They really like loose, coarse, well-aerated soil. If you have well-aerated soil then a hosta should be able to recover in as little as one season, growing up to the surface and then re-establishing a new crown depth. This elongated crown growth usually occurs over the winter and spring, prior to emerging. So if you plant a leafed out hosta too deeply you might rot off the stems initially, but if it isn't oxygen starved it will establish a new depth when the dormant buds develop new eyes.

Each hosta cultivar seems to have its own preferred depth, none of which is above the surface as is often suggested on this forum, but again, if the soil is too heavy then the only place for the crown to get oxygen is near the surface. However these plants can suffer badly over the winter, coming back smaller with tons of smaller eyes that are mass produced in an attempt to grow deeper or to save itself.

When I'm planting dormant hostas I try to keep the mini and small hosta crowns about 1/2" below the soil, small to medium about 1" below, large about 1 1/2 to 2", and giant hostas 2 to 2 1/2" below the soil. Dormant buds tend to swell UNDER the ground, prior to emerging, and dormant bud size can be limited if they are too shallow. Some small hostas like Blue Mouse Ears and Radiant Edger actually have very large dormant buds for their size, so I like to put those about 1 1/2" below soil level.

When people have mentioned problematic hostas grower better after lifting them up, I really think the new soil aeration is helping them more than a chance in depth. Remember, after working the soil and planting your plants, never heel them in or tamp down the soil, then avoid walking in the gardens. Keep it loose and airy and then "too deep" isn't that much of an issue. And if they sink a little they will recover faster upward than if they are too high and need to grow down.

When I visited Ken's place years ago I did see some plants that looked too deep, but it almost looked like they had dropped down into mole tunnels and weren't really planted that way.

I would say to be careful about the extremes. They shouldn't be at the surface and the crown and roots should not be showing, but shouldn't be planted way down in a hole either.

About 15 years ago I too was planting too shallow and saw the same thing as flowerchild. Now if I am going to err one way or another it will be too deep, but I also keep the soil as light and airy as I can.

Chris
thisismelissa
15 years ago
I don't have a before pic, but I think I can safely say that since all of these hosta were planted at the same time, that these bare spots are the result of planting too deep.

This was a row of 30 Royal Standard that extended from the plant you see on the left of the pic, all the way to the gazebo. But, as you can see, there is quite a large gap as you get closer to the gazebo. At that area, about 6 plants were lost.

Granted, I planted these when I literally knew NOTHING about hosta, but I do remember these holes being deeper.
thisismelissa
15 years ago
Oh, and may I also add:

I rescued Alex Summers from a too-deep hole. Potted her up for a couple weeks.... she unfurled nicely and has since been place in my HICU garden (Hosta Intensive Care Unit) so that she can grow up!
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
Original Author
15 years ago
i hate when i put a typo in the title.. my inbox is flooded with the error .. mocking me endlessly .. very... should i say ... ANNOYING ..... oops.. wrong post ...

anyway .. alex summers is a HE .... one of the founders of the AHSoc ...

how deep depends on your soil .... in your garden.. we can make suggestions.. but only you will come to know how it works best for you ...

i plant at the ground level .. and if i properly water the sand.. it stays put ...

with minis and smalls... and the drip irrigation.. the moles tunnel down the line ... and the minis ... when the tunnel collapses.. will then be planted 3 inches too deep ... they go around bigger plants ... indicating they are moles.. not voles... they arent interested in eating the plant ... easier to go around ...

ken
maryann_____chgo
15 years ago
Hey, Ken, from your post I surmised that HE was the new acronym for Hosta Expert, another name for Alex Summers, the he.

If h. 'Alex Summers' were fertile, it could be called "she", right? I tend to call them all "it".
esther_opal
15 years ago
I know 15 years ago or so I planted too shallow on a regular basis and thru many winters here in variable thaws and warm spells in the winter, I have lost many of my older clumps to heaving."
flowerchild

Mulch is your best defense from heave.

AIR, most speak of lack of air or air movement around the crown.

Plant high and mulch and you can't go wrong unless you allow the mulch to wash/blow away. If you do the little pond method with the mulch there will be little if any mulch movement. The mulch will provide the air movement and the plant and soil will work everything else out amongst themselves.

This eliminates all the preciseness of how deep, too deep, too high?
thisismelissa
15 years ago
Alex, the person may be a "He" but all my hostas are SHE's!

It's my garden and I'll be sexist if I want to!
botanybabe
15 years ago
Ken,

If I'm not mistaken it was a photo of my Bedazzled that started this thread. You suggested it might be planted to deep and I should check it. Acting on your advice, I checked it and found it was just right. There were 4 inch petioles on every leaf. Apparently the magnolia leaf fallout had accumulated around the base of Bedazzled which made it look as if she was planted too deeply. Once I cleared out the magnolia leaves, she looked normal.

Lainey
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
Original Author
15 years ago
emasculating a man is not sexists ... its cruel

ken
dbowemd
15 years ago
Fertility doesn't make it a she... every normal flower has both male and female parts. The female part forms the seed, but the same flower can donate male (pollen) genes to itself or to other plants.
Dave
greenguy
15 years ago
I always plant a bit shallow in my heavy clay but i mulch a lot
never had many issues that i could point to be planted to high

a lot of times i plant the plants on little hills so i can slowly fill the beds in with mulch to make them level

just like with these trees but on a smaller scale

see how high the trees look
{{gwi:46820}}

now i have a nice raised bed - were they planted to high? Yep but now they are just right - I do pretty much the same thing with hostas
{{gwi:46827}}
esther_opal
15 years ago
Greenguy, your planting method is exactly like Dr Armitage at UGA, search GA site for photos. This method has been tested over many years.
botanybabe
15 years ago
Glad to hear it. That's exactly how I planted my new Larix kaempferi decidua.

Lainey
greenguy
15 years ago
Dr Armitage at UGA - who is this guy stealing my ideas lol
esther_opal
15 years ago
Greenguy, I know how you feel. 35 years ago I designed a car I called the BW almost exactly like the Toyota Prius, everyone laughed at me.
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
Original Author
8 years ago
bump
bragu_DSM 5
8 years ago
sure, you'll bump an old post but won't respond to hails elsewhere ...

how do you know whent ehy are too deep ....

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