What is a Japanese Garden?

15 years ago

Perhaps this is a time for definitions. Perhaps a purist would deny a Japanese influence as a legitimate ambition. Perhaps someone could explain why we westerners are interested in Japanese gardens at all.

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Comments (18)

footprintkalo
15 years ago
the image it sets up in the mind when one hears or speaks of a Japanese garden
kevip711
15 years ago
Because maybe a western garden sucks.. or maybe I have had to much to drink.. I tried the japanese garden thing in my backyard but it is more of a mixture of all.. you tell me.. I would like it to be more asian or japanese but will settle for just asian looking.. and I am european.. but just happen to have to the dumb luck of parents to settle here in the US

Here is a link that might be useful: my yard, pond and other things
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Tony, I think this is a much more sensible way to address the question. you state that Japanese gardens are on the whole unique, "the inception or invention of the phenomenon that is instantly recognisable, where did this come from ?" Surely the only answer is the 'heart' of Japanese culture. Many civilisations were making 'gardens' at that time so the desire to construct open spaces using natural materials was not unique, the Japanese expressed their culture in the same way as the Europeans did but with profoundly different results ? Sacred spaces in Japan existed long before the desire to build gardens. Though the shrine at Ise would undoubtedly fit the Japanese definition of niwa it is quite distinct from what are discussed here as Japanese gardens. Shrines were created at places of unique or outstanding natural beauty, again long before what we now call Japanese gardens were developed. So the question, I feel is, did the Japanese start to replicate nature in the form of gardens for the purpose of creating shrines and later temples or was this just a reflection of their cultural taste and 'heart'. Yes the same garden styles were used in the grounds of temples but does this make them a religous statement or a cultural one ? I personally am inclined towards the latter. The point you raised about comparing western/japanese style of similar historical periods I find of interest. I have found that many Japanese scholars on the subject have taken great interest in the 'English landscape style' of the 19th century because of its representaion of nature. Prof. Makoto Nakamura has written "to explain the difference between the English landscape style and the Chinese or Japanese style, the former is characterised by its realistic representaion of nature while the latter by their symbolic representaions". So throughout the later part of the 19th century, when the wealth and opulence of the English Lord's estates was at its greatest the popular style in England was far removed from what is often seen as English style (though realy French and Italian)- the formal, symmetrical gardens were replaced by vast representaions of the rolling English countryside. Just an aside but one I find of interest. Graham
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So what's the real issue here. I wonder if it is connected to a loss of spirituality (or perhaps unacceptance of forgeign spiritualities) in the West(I dare, say American Society) This distain and attitude to Japanese spirituality has grown and been seeded by a segment of the Western population. An abvious case is JOJG. They have consistantly knocked the existance of Zen, spirituality and religious beliefs. To the point of denying factual history and its' obvious influence on the Japanese arts. This spirituality is also feared, misunderstood and under fire in Japan. Perhaps one of the main reasons being, is how the leadership used religion to con the population during the last world war (1933 - 1945 in Japanese years). There is more to this though, and not the question here. But why is there such an overt anti Western move against Japanese spiritualism. What is Douglas Roth, editor of JOJG and others so afraid of. Is it connected to pedifile priests and a breakdown of the local beliefs, forgeign terrorists cloacked in perverse spirituality, a fear of facing oneself, or just a simple I don't get it, so its' bad. Gerald
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I wrote in the "what goes into a Japanese Garden thread several days ago, but new threads buried that one. Here is what I wrote: What goes into Japanese Gardens? "Thought. Lots of thought. It is not the "what", but it is the "how". We've all seen empty fields of gravel a small grouping of rocks that look wonderful. I'd suggest that it is neither the gravel or rocks that will duplicate the success of the garden. It is how they are placed and balancing of the mass of rocks against the expanse of gravel, negative space vs. positive space, etc, ... I'd suggest that it is not the stone lantern that is inspiring in the garden, but the mass and texture of it balanced against everything around it. My belief is that there is simply a different approach to balance that is the basis of Japanese gardens. It is the ability to balance with unlike objects, forms, color, and texture. Sometimes only one or two of these are present, but sometimes all of them and more are. The ability to assess the visual weight of these things and then to use that qualitative judgement to form compositions that on a whole are very balanced and restful is what I think is at the heart of it. Think about acheiving balance between a 2 ton boulder and feathers. Once that is done, throw in a tree. Do you need to move the rock? Maybe add or take away some feathers? Somehow the equivalent is done in the many forms Japanese gardens take that I can recall. The cultural icons certainly make a link that everyone will recognize, but a Japanese garden can be recognized without a lantern, bamboo, or a moon gate. I would also suggest that the presence of those items does not a Japanese garden make. I'm not trying to cause a firestorm as it seems from reading some posts there has been problems with that. That is just my take on what the "thing" is about Japanese gardens. Some are extremely complicated with all kings of plant forms, sizes, texture, and color (sometimes lots of contrasting color). There may be dramatically undulating landform. There can be water, stone, and wood structures. But it seems that no matter what they have whether simple or complex, it is always restful because it is always balanced. Our Western cultures tend to lean much more heavily on symetry and/or geometry for balance. We are taught to see numbers, size, and distance to counteract each other. They, the masters of Japanese gardens, apparently see more than that and use it.
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Boy have I been missing a lively post! It does sound like Edzard and Herb have worked out the fowl language issue ; > My comments seem a day late, but here goes: As for the need for "traditional" Japanese gardens, I need them! And I believe many more do and would appreciate them. There are many thresholds that separate the traditional - from the modern - from the downright different-for-the-sake-of-difference. I prefer not to cross more than the first few. Just in case someone misses my subtleties, my appreciation of modern influences on Japanese gardening has yet to develop ; ) This is where a professional can make a difference. With an understanding of the principals, purposes, and possibilities of Japanese garden design and construction, copying an existing garden is not necessary. When I refer to a professional, I am not speaking of expertism, authoritism, or fame, but of a person who has made a profession of studying, practicing, and understanding Japanese gardens and gardening (hopefully for more than a couple of years!). With these gifts, a designer can evaluate the garden site possibilities, conceive of the spirit or direction (and yes, magic), and execute the construction without literally trying to recreate some successful garden from history or fame. Additionally, most often these days, there is nothing left of the original site and one most look outside the immediate area for an understanding. This is something that may not be considered by the DIY (without this forum). I believ I avoid the monkey's butt as I am no expert, and much enjoy the kettle. All this said, I believe the "woodblock print" inspired gardens have use, and are enjoyed by many. Do not mistake moderate budget for laziness. Sometimes the orthodontist can afford the great garden, but the parents cant! And I certainly do not agree that a successful garden cannot be moved or duplicated in another site. Garden designs and garden elements, like most cultural influences have moved great distances to find the right slot to grow and spread. By a close example, the azumaya at Katsura Rikyu. I was taught early garden purposes sometimes included the mad desire of early royalty to have the immortality of the Gods. Failing this, they wanted to lure the Gods into their garden by recreating attractive habitats for them (thatÂs a subject for another post), in hopes of the GodÂs favors. Along the way, add the Shinto belief that God is in everything, and they may dwell in particular in "special" garden elements, then the garden is the Home of the Gods. If this is the case, then it would be good practice to take really good care of the garden, eh? It also shows reasoning for beliefs that certain gardens exist apart from the realities of the rest of the world. I think I will stop before those experts who know such things have nothing to do with Japanese gardening have a heart attack. These are my opinions. No names have been changed to protect anyoneÂ
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inkognito
Original Author
15 years ago
I don't get a sense of the passion some feel for Japanese Gardens perhaps by asking you are admitting that you will never know, it being obvious.

Check out the number of forums here on the garden web that have the name of a country in their title, only one, right?

Why?
Embothrium
15 years ago
Like other disciplines that have developed over a long period of time you can get probably best get the effect you want by studying the subject well before trying to create your own example. Once you learn how it works and how to put it together then the frustration will probably be diminished significantly.
davies-cc
15 years ago
I am just starting mine, and I admit it is not likely to ever satisfy a purist. But for me, the most important characteristic I am trying to achieve is a sense of seclusion and peace. So I'm putting in a lot of evergreens around the edges, and using varied plants to soften a privacy fence and parts of my house and my neighbor's house that tend to define the space as well. There will be some flowers, and also a little more emphasis on Japanese plants, but mostly I am just trying to pay more attention to a sense of space and form and interesting foliage, rather than a big floral display. Somewhere down the road there will be a pond, and a sitting area or two. Maybe some kind of boulder arrangement, a little statuary, who knows?

A sense of peace, and separation from the outside ("profane") world; that's about all I understand about Japanese gardens so far.
tjchermack
15 years ago
Okay I'll bite...

My limited understanding of Japanese Gardens is that they evolved as a form of nature worship. We can read all about the "principles" but I believe the essence is to create forum in which people (the gardener) can admire nature and interact with it. When you get into the really advanced pruning and training techniques, it seems clear to me that these are attempts at mimicking nature on a small, contained scale, in a flattering manner. Further reading brings you into all of the representations in japanese gardens and one can quickly learn that nothing is by accident. Everything is placed where it is for a reason, with a clear intention. The part of the observer, then could be to wonder about, and try to interpret that initial intent. So, it becomes a kind of puzzle. I know that whenever I am in a japanese garden, I wonder about its creator(s) and why they might have designed it in the way they did.

On another level entirely, I think that japanese gardens help people to see things differently. There is always a different vantage point that reveals something new to the viewer. This, I suppose could be said of almost any garden, but I know that when I am working in my garden, depending on where I stand, I can see for example, different maple leaves in different lighting, different branches on the pines, etc... all of this reminds me that there is always another perspective. In this way, it could be said that gardens can teach one about life. I know I am learning about patience...

I don't have the source for this, but it has been remarked that anything said about zen is too much.

Perhaps the same is true of Japanese Gardens?
laag
15 years ago
It is the balance and orchaestration of all influences within the garden whether simple or complicated. Because it is extremely hard to communicate balancing multiple variables, it is discussed using metaphors of religion, philosophy, and nature.

I believe there is often a greater obsession with chasing the metaphors than there is in understanding the actual mechanisms in play in the actual garden.

Physical characteristics and how they interplay are totally separate from philosophy. Philosophy may be the inspiration for the result, but it is not the mechanism for the result. We can study philosophy until the cows come home, but at some point we have to understand what the heck we are looking at.

I think that the what is so captivating is the calm. The more complicated the composition the more striking is the calm (if it is done well).

Two twins on either side of a see-saw is perfect balance, but does not inspire calm because it is obvious. Off center that see-saw and balance it out with unrelated items in different numbers and different sizes spaced oddly and it has a very different affect. It is an intricate calm.

You can understand that notion of complicating the balance on that see-saw, but you still need to place all of those things to make it work.
laag
15 years ago
A better analogy might be silence. If you sit in a football stadium by yourself, the silence is unimpressive. If you sat in a stadium with 70,000 people and there was complete silence, it would be dramatic.

That is what I observe to be the magic of a Japanese garden. It is often an elephant on one side of the see-saw and a mouse on the other, yet it is balanced. Many see only the elephant and the mouse and do not look at all of the other subtle things that are done to make that see-saw balance. The farther these gardens venture from obvious geometric balance the more dramatic the sense of rest becomes when they are balanced.

You can look at a Zen gravel & rock garden and see a big cluster of rocks and a small cluster of rocks in a gravel field. The size of the field, the size and positions of the rocks, the distances between them is all about the mouse and the elephant. If you only see the mouse and the elephant you won't get the same result.

The same holds true with stone lanterns, moon gates, japanese maples, or rocks. If you only see those items and don't see what they are doing to the landscape around it, or what that landscape is doing to it, you'll have the ingredients without the recipe.

The next question is whether you can make a japanese garden without using anything japanese.
yama
15 years ago
Hi laag
I think, it is possible. We have rocks, beautiful moss,blue sky( it is gray now^^) here in New England.
Understand what makes Japanese garden so special.
Without stone lantern, without the religion. Perhaps you don't have to call the garden" Japanese garden"
I don't live in GA anymore. I am New Englander with strong Japanese accent. Anyone can be New Englander?
Only WASP ?
yama.
laag
15 years ago
Welcome to New England! My parents had strong accents, too (One WASP).

What should be called a Japanese Garden? I'm not sure.

I see lots of "japanese gardens" by many containing all of the items associated with Japanese Gardens yet do not evoke the feeling that is the magic of a Japanese Garden in my opinion. It is like boiled sushi.

I have seen other gardens that do evoke that feeling that do not incorporate those items. Maybe this is the same as a California Roll? I don't know.
patings
15 years ago
Well, I think the problem is to talk about "Japanese Garden" in this way. The differences between e.g. a tea garden, a Zen garden (karesansui ?) or stroll garden (just to name a few) is too big to talk about in these general term. I know it is often done but I do not share that. There are some commonalities but these are often not the subject of a discussion. I think it would be better to be one degree more precise. I know that in a temple-complex there are mostly compositions of different types but that is seldom the case outside Japan.
Piet,

Here is a link that might be useful: The Tsubo-en karesansui garden
inkognito
Original Author
15 years ago
Piet: I welcome your input and really the intent of my enigmatic post was to draw out thoughts such as yours. From what I understand of what you are saying 'Japanese Garden' is way too general to describe anything at all.
patings
15 years ago
Well mr/mrs inkognito,
As the Japanese garden evolved over 15 centuries it is difficult to label or "put in a box".
To my humble opinion (and over 25 year "hands on" experience with the subject) I think that the Archetypes (thanks Edzard!) of gardens according to the Tokyo Agricultural University are just what is needed.

On my website I try to be of help to those that want to realize their own "Japanese garden", in my caes with a high focus on the Zen or Karesansui garden. As one of the first thoughs should be: "what type of Japanese garden do I want to realize ?" it is a must to be able to typify it. Then this is a basis for further study, investigation, discussion and what have you.

In the case of my own garden, Tsubo-en, in general terms and based on these Archetypes I call it a "Zen garden" (aka karesansui garden) with "Tea garden" elements.

For this very reason, that is in support of design discussions, I have put a page on my website with a listing of these Archetypes and more. See the "useful" link below.
Piet,

Here is a link that might be useful: How to typify, architect and compose a Japanese garden ?
yama
15 years ago
Inky
I talked with Dan.Resubmit the membership if you want to.
You have been saving my aXX in the past and nice to me,
So I am doing same now.^^

Pating
What is Tusbo mean? 3.3 Sq meter? two tatami mat size? or smallest unit of devided area/section?
What is zen mean to you ? What is your definition of zen?
Do you think that Tibetan or Thai Buddhism have Zen too ?
Pure land Buddhism has Zen in it or not?

Question, question ^^
Inky
How do you think, since you started this posting.
yama
patings
15 years ago
Hello Yama,

The name we gave our garden is 'Tsubo-en'. This name was initially given to our first Japanese style garden back in 1987. At that time the info about tsubo could not be found on the Internet ! The idea came from a book by Loraine Kuck. Although I explain about the tsubo on my website a good definition can be found on this URL: http://www.aisf.or.jp/~jaanus/deta/t/tsubo.htm

Regarding a definition of Zen I refrain from trying to give any as it would be far too presumptuous. With regard to Zen and the garden I can only say that I concentrate purely on the aesthetic impact of Zen on the 'garden experience' by trying to understand the backgrounds and by studying existing gardens, old and young. On my website http://www.karesansui.nl/ you can find links to definitions that are not and will not be mine. For that I can only cite that 'every word said to explain Zen is one too many' (or something). FYI I am a Zazen practitioner for over 10 years now but only for the peace of mind that it brings me.

Wel yes I think so as Zen is only the Japanese word and interpretation originating from the Chinese ChÃ¡n that was derived from the Sanskrit DhyÄna. Not sure why you ask as you probably know the answer better than I do ?!

Here is a link that might be useful: karesansui.nl - The Tsubo-en home
madtripper
15 years ago
Good question - I have no idea!

My wife knows nothing about gardening, less about Japanese gardens. At the San Francisco Japanese garden, we were standing, overlooking a small pond. She said "it is sooo peaceful".

Many japanese gardens have this quality (based mostly on a lot of reading and pictures). But some do not. For example I find some far too cluttered with rocks. I don't see or feel the balance. Maybe I am not trained to understand the subtle balance that exists in the same way that I can't appreciate good music.

Rock and Sand gardens. Very interesting - yes. Unusual - yes. Peaceful - not really - not for me. I find them lacking of ?? something.

I have spent some time in the far north - the Arctic - where no tree grows. Where no people live. It is at least as peaceful as a Japanese Garden. I get a similar feeling on a quiet day in a North American deciduous forest. Both of these places have a Zen like quality.

So a Zen like feeling may be important, but it does not define a Japanese Garden.

Westerners, add a pond, a bridge, a stone lantern, and some bamboo and they have a Japanese Garden. Are these icons required? Required may be too strong a word, but I think that without them, a Japanese Garden is much less recognizable. Can you have a tea garden without a building?

Some people say a garden has an 'oriental flare or influence'. That usually means none of the icons are there. There might be some racked gravel or a clipped pine - but not much else.

Just as important are the missing things - the negative icons. For example - tall grasses, and flowering perennials.

So maybe a Japanese garden has three things; a Zen like feeling, certain expected icons, and the lack of unexpected icons.
yama
15 years ago
Happy New Year to Inky and others.
Yama
botann
15 years ago
"Perhaps someone could explain why we westerners are interested in Japanese gardens at all."

Japanese gardens have a sense of scale, proportion and good lines. Attributes most western gardens lack.

Happy New Year Ink, Yama, and the rest of the posters here.
Best regards,
Mike
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What is a Japanese Garden?

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