Herb,..
I do not mean to sound rude,.. and a debate is hardly needed, yet for me a google search of Zen gardens would be a waste of time sifting through the ones with an expression and the ones without.
Just because someone else may call them Zen gardens, I apologise but being a sheep is not on my list of creatures to emulate.

'All Stone gardens' are hardly Zen gardens, therefore seeing only a path and a wall with a few poorly set stones in greenery hardly reminds of anything Zen.

I think the wall is well done, however it is literally a page from Niwa magazine about 2 issues back and into last year. Nothing new there, nothing Zen, nothing beyond good use of materials and spatial solution.

Where I ponder word usage is the 'inspiration' the 'inspired by Zen'.
Timeworn that thought is, at least for me.
Either Zen or don't. Being an 'inspired by Christianity garden' is a hard push for me. Or inspired by Catholicism... it doesn't work for me.

The wall is a good solution to a design need, a solution, which is a Japanese garden, a solution to a space. Nothing more. I see no Fudo Myoo, I see no association to any religious factor whatsoever. 'Zen style' is a sales & marketing ploy. And I don't buy into it.
change your wording to 'good garden solution' and I'll buy in anytime.
sorry. I do appreciate the link as a picture to what people have accomplished.
edzard

Herb edzard
I visited landscape design foum but could not find it .
what page of Landscape designe forum I shold look ?
mike

Edzard -

It's unclear unclear whether you're disputing the common usage of the word 'Zen' to identify a style of garden or, on the other hand, the question of whether Reed Madden were in any way inspired by gardens such as Daitoku-ji, or Daigo-ji. Perhaps you're disputing both questions?

It would seem that the only people in a position to enlighten us with any certainty on the second of the two questions must be Reed Madden. However, from your reference to 'poorly set stones in greenery', are we to take it that you consider their work inferior, and so wouldn't value their input?

Herb

Mike,

It's in the Gallery section of the Landscape Design forum.

Herb

Herb,..
(is 'their work' referring to Madden?, then yes it is inferior stone setting)

if Reed Madden was 'inspired' as you term it,.. then to me it was a copy. And that is fine and good. However he would have been 'inspired' by Japanese gardening, not specifically 'Zen garden Style', which if thought about, really does not exist. As you say, style is another conversation for another time.

For me this wall is hardly inspiration or inspired by, which would indicate a unique offshoot of the typology of rammed mud walls. Being a copy is hardly inspired, yet it is a nice polite way of putting it.

considering I/we had built a wall + planter box similar to this 2 years back with the same shape sweeping from castle wall vertical to horizontally descending into a rustic cobble path + wooden bridge form,.. this is hardly new, as I copied it as a plausible design solution applied from mud walls + stone work from the castle walls.
-would you like a jpeg forwarded?

I can only hope that when something is written as an intellectual property and is copied concept + technique that it is not plagerism but inspiration (chuckle) -from experience, I can hardly say I was inspired, yet I can say I followed a design solution for the space + need and the client liked it.

Imo, Japanese gardens having an 'Author's Intent', being written as a design solution, this becomes either a good solution common to Japanese garden form or plagerism,.. you can choose.
Inspiration and inspired by are merely buzz words that often validate a theft or 'a good use'... frankly, I'm hardly concerned.
It is a good choice for that spatial solution. I applaud.

In regards to the Zen garden term, I see nothing of Zen in this spatial solution. I see nothing of Daigoji, nor of Daitokuji of which I am familiar.

sorry, nothing Zen. Not a twitch.

On the other hand, I appreciate that you/others see the similarity to what 'we' term as Japanese garden in this spatial solution. And understand the need to label it with something previously seen, to identify it with,...
yet to the Japanese garden, being at its simplist as good spatial solutions, there is nothing here of Zen.
"Children of Japanese gardens", perhaps, as the world becomes aware of alternative ways of doing things,.. and begins to take a lesson or two, is the same notion as UK fusion gardens. They also begin to apply the need of space and a solution with human ergonomic thought rather than a need to satisfy the 'artistic need' of the artist or to supply only what the owner has requested. On the other hand, if that is all the owner is paying for I suppose it is valid.

I would sooner say that designers are growing up enough to assert design solutions for spaces rather than merely facilitating clients wishlists which are too often a mismatched composition.
... again, I apologise, the intent is not to be rude, just a reality check of design solutions versus catch phrases that are as meaningless as 'do you know what I mean?' ... gee, no, I don't, -how can I? we're not identical twins...

-Zen inspired... Zen is pretty big.. which part of Zen inspired this mudwall and stone setting? Daitokuji? Daigo-ji? ..o.k., which part? and why is it Zen and not a simple design solution?
edzard

Having looked through the portfolio of this couples work it would not surprise me to learn that they were Zen practitioners. Some of the work has the clean lines that we associate with classical Japanese architecture too. Having said that, I agree with edzard that the photograph in question shows that the sculptors were 'in tune' with the Australian theme and provided "a good solution to a design need". This ability to connect with the site may come about as the result of practising Zen but I don't see anything that could be termed "Zen Style".

Edzard & Inky,

It's obvious that what we're really at odds about is the use of the word 'Zen'. I simply disagree with the idea that it's improper to use it as a generic term for contemplative gardens in Japan that consist largely of rocks and gravel.

If you insist that the 'feeling' of the presence of Fudo Myoo or whatever is a prerequisite to your usage of the word 'Zen', that's fine - though I should have thought that actual effigies of the Divinity of Fire would be more likely found indoors.

I want to make it clear that I have not said and am not saying that the Reed Madden examples are "Zen" - but that they are derived from what I choose to call Zen style - or, if you prefer it - from the style of contemplative gardens in Japan that consist largely of rocks and gravel.

I still stand by my use of the word 'inspired' too, though if you prefer to think of the derivation in terms of 'copy', that's fine as well.

Herb

:), Herb,...
indeed.
any time three stones are placed together an image of Fudo Myoo is created and is ordained to be seen as such.

Where do you obtain the notion that Zen gardens as a generic term consisting largely of stone and gravel?

The stone and gravel gardens originated from the lack of building sites that had flowing water. Further they evolved in part through the tray landscapes.

Style, imo, in this day and age, is a fad, a short term fashion. The equivalent of how many buttons are on a sport coat. It is still a sport coat. Not a new form of covering as is European (jacket) fashion comparative to Eastern (kimono) fashion.
In turn the term 'style' at the time of the translations of the word being translated in Japan, was in the Meiji era. At that time, styles were used for an era, for a homogenous ethnic typolology (kara yo, wa yo or..) normally determined by the current reign (in the year of '--').

In modern English usage I would probably choose to use 'type', rather than be a martha stewart clone where rooms become French by the type of furniture and doillies rather than the patterned sequencing in a corridor or the height of the ceiling, which normally typifies a French living room. (spatial use vs itemization)

If we used the 1870's to 1910's definition of 'style', then it is perhaps applicable, however the usage without explanation that one has reverted to an older language meaning is too lengthy to always explain.

Further, the gardens are perhaps better described by era or innovation in technique or by usage/location of space, than by generic 'style' in which we would need to count the buttons in the garden and match up the names before describing the garden in generics.

a last reason, as Japanese gardens are 'good design principles' aka Landscape Architecture, ecologically senstive succession design comparative to the English 'specimen' gardening, then why bother starting out to settle for vastly less when in reality the objective is the real thing?
IOW's, design a specimen garden or a succession garden or mix it up in the appropriate places. The principles stay the same no matter what the culture because we all have 2 eyes, 2 arms, 2 legs, a brain, balance and all the rest of what makes us humankind.

And I agree, 'everyone' uses the term 'style', that doesn't make it better English.

(rock is unselected 'rock' in a quarry or en-masse, with no designated purpose as yet. Stone is rock which has been chosen for a purpose... while we are speaking in large conceptual terms)

I'll leave you with inspired, though since copy is the suggested form of learning in Japan/Asia, and it is important to seek what they sought... rather than 'feeling inspired' by ones Way or teacher or ?? ...
...inspiration just does not make sense as a word selection in the Japanese garden pantheon that rejects the "I - ego - self' as translated by finding the consensual intent of the group and working with the Nature (both tenses) of the site or when learning,.. which is always happening. Feeling 'inspired' is the self responding to stimuli rather than humbly accepting that Naature is greater than the Self.

but sure,... if people want to use ego-centric 'inspired by's', then go to it, it weeds out those that are seeking a solution for the site, or whether one needs to fathom some hidden internal wishlist that we are to magically support as 'really great design, wow, wish I could do that...'.

and... too much philosophy for me,.. I prefer to be working...
enjoy,
edzard
(unless we wish to continue the conversaation, I would not wish to spout and leave as being unseemly... translation,.. for me, too much time spent here, so am making noises about getting back to work and responsibilities to others)

Herb, I think Edzard is put off by the use of a religious term to denote a garden style and this may suprise some, but me too.

Much as I feel that most styles of Japanese gardens owe a huge debt to the stone setting priests (Muso, Enshu, etc.), that "Zen" garden is usually a kare-sansui, despite the fact that this was only one style Muso (usually credited with starting the style) worked in. He was of the mind that there was Zen to be found in all gardens, and I bow to his superior intellect...

Scott

Edzard -

Here we go again, arguing about the meaning of words.

The expression 'Zen Garden' is, whether purists like it or not, widely used to refer to gardens in Japan that consist largely of rocks and gravel. The example of the Google search that I referred you to is a conspicuous example of such usage. In the book The Garden Art of Japan, by Masao Hayakawa, there is a chapter entitled 'The World of the Dry-Landscape Garden' which refers to these as 'Zen Gardens'. Similarly, Sima Eliovson's book Gardening the Japanese Way, writes, at page 27 of '...the abstract sand and stone gardens of the Zen Buddhists...'

Now, let me move along to the matter of whether it's wrong to write of the 'Zen style'. The expression is not my invention. It is used, for example, in Teiji Itoh's book, Space and Illusion in the Japanese Garden, where illustration number 78 is captioned 'Guest-room courtyard garden in Zen style, Daimonjiya Inn, Kyoto'.

Nor is the meaning of the word 'style' as used in English confined, as you assert, to fad or short-term fashion. I can only suppose that you mistakenly think it is cognate only with the word 'stylish' or the expression 'in style'.

'Style' certainly continues in current usage - for example - in various of the arts - e.g. 'Palladian style' in architecture, 'Impressionist style' in painting. If people were instead to start saying, 'Palladian type' or 'Impressionist type' it would sound odd - and, moreover, have a different nuance of meaning. Consequently I prefer - unless there is a special reason - to write of the 'Japanese style', or the 'Zen style' than to write 'type'. It is, we might say, better English style.

Inky -

I don't know whether Reed Madden designs came about, as you say, as the result of their practising Zen, but I have established that they acknowledge inspiration from both the colors and textures of Australia and from contemplative Zen gardens and the use of rocks in them.

Scott -

I've no doubt 'kare-sansui' is an accurate expression for the initiated - but 'Zen' is more familiar to those who aren't.....

Herb

Hi all
some how I can understand what edzard is trying to say.
For many of readers of Gw J garden forum , Zen is deffrent than most of Buddhist sects. Mahiyana ,Theravada ,Esoteric Buddhisms of sects all practice Zen. no matter where ,what country.
when most Japanese garden books written by westerners, Zen is explained much deffrent that Buddhism teach or monks of zen sect explained. some of temples are Jodo shu temple, built or designed by Jodo shu monks ,Shingon shu monks,or Tendaishu monks. If garden is "karesansui" then wesntern garden writer automaticly thinks it is the zen gaden.

if I post Erinji temple's garden's photo without saying who designed and what sect Erinji belong to, you may not think it is Zen garden.....

Even Nichrenshu temple's garden can be zen garden for those dont know what Nichirenshu is. The founder of Nichirenshu "Saint Nichiren" called zen as national enemy or thif of the nation. 700 years later westner thinks Nichirenshu temple garden is zen garden....
I cannot tell my self what is zen garden and what is not zen garden. probably Zen sect temples garden is Zen garden. but then all Buddhism of sects practice zen in thier doctrin, Nichirenshu temple's garden also can be called zen garden................. perhaps Landsacpe architect, garden desiner who do not beleive Buddhism, or don't know much buddhism, never read one sutra still able to build zen gardens. probably he/she can build fine zen gardens.

Herb : This is nothing to relate to any one's post above . this is only my a monologue.................. mike

Herb, you are being unnecessarily argumentative about this for some reason.
Listen to what you are saying, which is that the word 'Zen' has less meaning for those who follow this path of religious expression than for those who chose to spin the word for what it may be worth.
'Zen' as a euphemism for 'minimalist' may work as a design concept but remember that for some Zen is a way of life and for them your annexing this word as a vaguely spiritual way of arranging sand and rocks may not be up to snuff.

Inky,

I admit that I care about and try to defend the English language, but how does anything I've written in any way either disparage Zen or make Zen's meaning less for those who follow it? Do I sense a whiff of Political Correctness?

Herb

chuckle,..
Herb,.. hardly arguing. I must protest, i have not brought out the artillery yet.. you are way ahead of me in the seriousness. About words... there's gardener words and there's client words.
and yet, this is not really about words (for me), yet more about introducing the comparative expression of the madden piece as a human expression in a wild place, expressed to a sensitive and tasteful level by virtue of applying 'laid-back' (pun) curvature, when vertical descending curvature would have been too man dominant. (hey, he could have used a stainless steel 1/4" wall of the same shape, beautiful but cold and smudgy from fingerprints.. d--n that high maintenance...!)

Balance, harmonization, integration, what is beauty? Did he do a good job? find a solution for the space... yes, sensitively.

Having trodden on that path, that garden space, how may we improve rather than stamp a footprint? How may we preserve and further the expression of the balance of Nature(s) in a space?

---I started thinking after being repeatedly completely inhouse with a rather large group of exceptionally experienced Japanese Japanese gardeners. It took a long while until their real thoughts slowly came out. In the beginning they spoke to me as the Caucasian I am, with terms of style and Zen and the other stereotypical buzz words used for (oddly) Caucasians. All in an effort to be comforting with concepts that 'most caucasians' seem to grasp 'these concepts'. And they do, thats why they are used.

After a few days, fitting in as best one can with the outsider face I have, -eventually speaking my mind somewhat, the buzz words dropped and suddenly the conversations were as a gardener to a gardener using terms such as 'expression' 'how to express' or 'the designer Intent/ intended/expressed'. What is your sense of the preferred expression the client needs in this space?

No Zen, no religion... karesansui isn't even, just how much stone...? oh, that much well they will understand it as karesansui,.. How many japanese gardens have you seen where you question the garden, and then when a rationalized 'understood motif' is added doe sone say, ah, yes, Japanese 'Japanese garden'. The stereotypes make it Japanese, we seem to think.
There was no I, or me, all was in terms of comprehending mutually that Nature is greater than Man.

Nature was understood to be the expressed difference between the natures of the site, understood was that beauty (with ease/comfort) was the objective and any resulting difference was merely the level of expression of humanity that was needed to balance the Nature-ness of the observers,clients feelings. How much nature to introduce or how much man-made 'conditions/expressions' to introduce to allow comfort and beauty in a non-threatening expression.
The short form being, Man is afraid of raw Nature, afraid of Tsunami's, afraid of what can not be seen from Nature that is sudden. And what unknown things nature contains within it, the poisonous insects, the spiders, the creatures, both mythical and real.
To ease this, since we need nature in our lives to be whole, a balance of more or less man-expressions are introduced.

Not items, how much pruning should be applied, how straight a line applied, how much wildness causes insecurity?, how much wildness is beauty?, how much of beauty is an expression of cultivation?
all questions seeking solutions.

(style recommended to be ) -
termed expression, the outcome became a solution, what solution what balance doe this client need, this one is 95% manmade - this one is 30% manmade... one needs lots of Pine pruning and manmade items, fences n' stuff. The other is a tea garden with a random basin and hidden lantern and rustic path... balancing of the expression of nature and balancing the expressions of man. To a composite 'wholeness', health, healing, ease, comfort... beauty, (is) not a style... style provides no health benefits... or ?

It is rather hard to balance a style or a Zen, or how much of that Zen gravel stone with the tamamono style should we use to evoke her style of garden??
non-sensical.
we could however express her taste...

and the difference is in how much of Manmade we experience during our days/lives. In a city concrete experience the need for nature is greater yet jarring with the setting,
in nature the country living, the enormous quantity of nature requires more lines, more man items, more fences, more mowed cultivation areas than does the city. More reassurance that we really are there. In cities we dominate. In Nature we seek security.. we cluster, we congregate by our nature, our need to survive
City has parks, vertical elements, Country has sportsfields, flat areas. Not because of space, but because of the need to balance securities. Seeing Cultivation is security, lawns are security of cultivation.

How does this relate? as i wander off topic, so to speak??

As you mention in the closing line... the initiated or aren't...
if this is where the clients gather that wish to speak about their gardens, go to it with the nomenclature you desire for comfort, for the need to relate, congregate, feel secure buffered from nature inclusive of self recognition.

If this is a gardeners place, then perhaps we should rethink the terminology used to better express what is being discussed, since the one currently used, the style, the Zen, all that is far too vague for educated gardeners that are attempting to balance the securities and insecurities of mankind through the land scape to suit our expressed tastes...

these garden techniques, the balance, the rusticity applies to houses, to architecture, to everything in our lives, it is what moves us from space to space, what allows us comfort etc.etc. It is us.
And is why _all arts, all occupations, all mankind is within the (japanese) garden.

Now perhaps you may wish to call this 'what style we live in' and this is well and good, yet in my work, I require to think differently and use a different dictionary everytime I write... which may just be why many consider my posts obtuse.
I know to others, I make a lot of sense, in a lot less words. We use a different dictionary.

my vexation, if there is any, is with fond appreciation and surprise, only because curiously, I was caught off guard hearing these client buzzwords from Herb...
consider it as how high in regard I consider you, not as an argument.
(puzzled, hoping no one is put off by my candor)
edzard
:)), Scott, when it comes to religious terms, I'm a known cardholding irreverent. and Zen is everywhere... I knew that.

Since you bring this up Herb: although 'Zen' is a word this does not necessarily make it belong to the English language. It also does not precondition you to understand it and because of this you should not attempt to explain something you don't understand.
On the other hand if you don't understand, then you are in good company but let's do the learning to understand together.

Inky -

You are entirely correct that the mere existence of a word does not make it part of the English language.

But this is more than a case of mere existence. English constantly absorbs words from other languages - and then they do belong to the English language.

Some, foreign words, perhaps regrettably, become used by English speakers with a meaning quite different from the original. That, it seems, is the case with the word Zen.

Of course I am not pre-conditioned to understand the meaning of the word in the part of the world where it originated, and I certainly don't understand the meaning that it has in that part of the world.

You or I may study it to try to ascertain it's original meaning, and that's no doubt laudable, but it has virtually no effect on the word's usage in the wider ocean of the English speaking world. When it uses a foreign word - or for that matter mis-uses an English word (remember the word 'gay') - we have to listen to the ocean. You and I can't ordain the meaning that the ocean gives to 'Zen' any more than we can command the tide to go out.

Herb

P.S. To think that all this controversy has ensued after my innocent, 10-word suggestion that "Japanese Zen style must have inspired these Reed Madden creations."!!!!

So then Herb as you have decided to take on communication broadside you will need to explain each word that you decide to give an individual meaning to in advance so that we know what you are talking about.

Inky -

No, no, no! I don't give individual meanings to words. There's only a problem when a reader attributes abnormal meanings to them.

Herb

ah, so the writer is always correct and the reader abnormal...

- I will harken back to 'How many japanese gardeners does it take to make a truth'
then the ocean determines the definitions of the world... perhaps since 'duh' was entered into the dictionary this is correct if we allow it to be so.

Normally the language used in an industry is adopted rather than the industry adopting the mass usage.
e

Edzard,

1. The vocabulary used by professionals and artisans within an industry is often esoteric. It may sometimes be used when addressing the general public, but instead of making things clearer, the more usual effect is to confuse.

2. Not everybody has a sufficient command of English to make himself easily understood.

Poor Herb, You need to have zen/meditation to reduce your blood presure and have tranquility.

last friday I have visited the Chinese temple of Purland/Jodo shu to get more books, sutras. I also wanted to have children books of Buddhism for my English study and for Thai friend's three children. when I was reading children books of Buddhism, suddly, I feel like I understand what is Zen.

most of us learned Buddhism as adlut . when we study Buddhism ,Zen. we are explaind zen in big word, very scholastic, philosophyical way to tought what is zen.
when I first leaned that zen is not only belong to so called zen sects. like Soto shu, Rinzai shu, Obaku shu, Tendai shu , new discovery made me wonder.

basicly every scholl of Buddhism teach zen. Mahayana, Theravada, all schools of Mahayana, Theravada teach zen / meditation.

some of internet information wrongly tell you that zen come from China in kamakura era. you are given so much of wrong informations by internet. based on those wrong informations you are thinking of what is Zen. I am not for sure that how many of Japanese landscape architects who wrote Engish Japanese garden book (s)ever read Bonmo kyo to learn what Shumisen is.

After reading the children book of Buddhism, some how I understand why every sects, school of Buhhism have Zen in thir precepts, dogmas.

meaning of Zen is much easer than most of you think. ( I think).
Words of Great Zen masters of past and present, book of Soto roku. Hekigan roku, Rizai roku, Koans etc . We are trying to learn college level of Zen without learing elemenaly level( foundation) of Buddhism.

I am wondering that you guys having fun to debate about Zen ? cuting kitten in half ? ..............mike

Hi MIke,

It's very kind of you to say that!

However, my blood pressure's not up. But I am puzzled.

As I said to Inky, what mystifies me is why my original suggestion - that "Japanese Zen style must have inspired these Reed Madden creations" - has caused other people's blood pressure to rise so much - especially since I have since learned that it did in fact inspire Reed Madden.

Perhaps some people are indignant simply because I used the expression 'Japanese Zen style'? If so, perhaps it is they who need to meditate and seek more tranquility?

Herb

Is it possible that what you are seeing is wabi-sabi Herb, rather than 'Zen style'?
I am not sure I know what you mean mike when you say that all schools of Buddhism teach zen/meditation.

Herb,..
-- language: the L.& Architects blueprint is a legal document. Shall we change the language to accommodate the everyday person? or shall we educate the public to the terminology?

In short you are saying that Japanese gardens are not professional. Therefore you do not value Mike or myself, Michelle, Scott, Lee, etc.. as professionals.

-- there are 4 buzz terms in your sentence which are all misconceptions. Compounded, what is the meaning, since it misdirects so vastly?

--Zen,.. considering the marketing of New Zen Style, and so on for the masses, I do not see any Zen in this at all... however you are being aware of the likeness to Japanese spaces and material uses.
--Style,.. as previous replies indicate. It has little meaning in the garden solution.
--Inspired,.. how did it inspire when it is a copy?
--Creation,... creation is soooooooo self centered, leave creation to the gods and understand that the Japanese garden is not a creation but a solution to a space.

Therefore you have in one statement misdirected people in 4 different ways. All this equates to is 4 times the confusion of anything 'we' the professionals have been saying for years...
In other words, what we spend our valuable time on, you decided is useless and should not be used, even though you are not the professional.

Then we, the professionals,
1) should not waste our time writing.
2) should adjust our vocabulary to yours should we decide to write.

If you are learning the Japanese language... do you get to make up your own words as you go along? and they get to be a part of the dictionary?

like I said, your one sentence bomb truly surprised me for the baseline logic of the above.
edzard

Inky -

Assuming that wabi means rustic simplicity I can't say that I felt much sense of wabi in the Reed Madden arrangements. On the other hand, if sabi means appreciation of weathered surfaces, that may well be part of what I sensed.

However, I feel diffident about attempting an analyse in any clinical way. Rather, I rely on (my) visual impression that there is considerable affinity between the Reed Madden creations and (dare I say it?) the Zen style - or karesansui style - or 'Japanese Dry Garden' style or whatever you want to call it.

I hesitate to describe it as a spiritual affinity because I've seldom been able to sense anything 'spiritual' in any Japanese garden (except in Nitobe, around the very big lantern) and consequently I can't conceive of the Reed Madden designs deriving any element of 'spirituality' from the Japanese gardens that inspired them. On the other hand, the Reed Madden do strike me as having a strong spiritual connection to the land of Australia and to the Aboriginal inhabitants' deep feelings of connection to Australia's terrain.

Now, having done my best to answer your question, I revert to my first feelings when I looked at the Reed Madden pictures, which was that (to my eyes) the affinity that I mentioned is quite unmistakable.

Click here and maybe my meaning will be better illustrated than by words? Does anybody else see it? If not, I rest my case.

The two middle pictures certainly have an affinity that I can't quite put my finger on (just ribbing you).
I do see what you mean Herb, you are a whizz with getting pictures up and as they say a picture is worth a thousand words, especially if one of those words is 'Zen'.

.. newspaper headlines:
Moment of satori inspires mud wall in Australian outback.

farm houses have similar walls, river banks, cemetaries, and pastures, orchards... most are protected with a roof, even secular ones.
yours have a roof tile, which counting the layers derives who is bankrolling the temple.
They are not rolled over, without a roof, they are vertical, with a roof.

The wall is still a page from Japan, or Zimbabwe or Mexico or India or Australia,... anywhere where mud walls have been built. The stones are poorly set, not even rooted to their widest point.

i suppose its the Zen, if inspired by beauty, one normally creates in that image. If I made a concrete box, would you believe me if Nature inspired it?
When inspired by a religion, then would not the result be somewhat religious?

It is still great work, that may have been inspired by a view of Japan. And verily I thank you for drawing attention to it..
ok, ok,..
.... uncle, uncle..., --Maddon was inspired by Japanese Zen Style
at last, an epiphany... i can even write it now... and my retinas did not burst...
thanks Herb.

THANK YOU!!!

Herb, Edzard, Inky, Mike! I've read and enjoyed every words from you guys. You keep our brains from getting mush !

Andrea

Hi Inky
all school, sect of Buddhism teach and pracice Zen.
Zen is not only for Soto shu, Rinzai shu,Tendaishu , obaku shu, any of Korean Zen line of Buddhim or Chinese.....

I visit to two temples, one is Korean. Chogyo Order which is largest sect of Korean Buhhism also it is line of Zen.
other is Chinese purland Buddhism . The great masters of purland sect teachs Zen also.

It is go back to Sakyamuni another name is Siddhattha means " realisation of all aims ".
after siddhattha left palace and become homeless monk. For 6 years he was serching for answers. toward end of 6 years serch,Sakymuni sit under bodhi tree and medtitated until he is enlighted. meditation under the tree was "Zen"

stop reading about zen from Japanese gardeing books.
How many of those writers have studied Buddhism deeply befor writing books ? probably not many, specialy English garden writers.
instead of reading , visit to any Buddhist temple and look for book of children. Many books for children in temple liburay are not for sale. There for, you cannot find in book store. Many of free books are destributed from Tiwan.

I have to call Edzard now ^-^............ mike

Herb, thanks for bringing to our attention the Reed Madden sculptural wall. And I see your connection, after all aren't Japanese and Zen gardens ispired from nature? Copies of what the earth over time has created. Therefore all gardens are copies, some better than others. What I find wonderful about thier work is the art form they created for a simple path. The path is the garden , wonderful work.

Cheers Jando

Are you saying that Zen and meditation are the same thing mike?
I think you will find that Zen is a school of Buddhism rather than the other way round, which you seem to be saying above, although it is not clear.

Hi Inky
What is Zen to you ? what is definition of Zen ? what is definition of meditation ?

Definition of meditation in English and Buddhism term are defferent, huge defferent. If your are thinking of meditation based on webster 's definition, you never understand Buddhist term of meditation.
Budhist Dictionary has three words as meditation.
bhavana, jhana,samadhi. each words have long explanations.

I will type it one of difinition for you and other silent readers of GW Jgarden forum. If you like to read all of it you have to give me your address again. I copy rest of it and will send it to you.

BHAVANA: 'Mental Development'( lit. 'calling inti existence,producing) is what in English geneally but rather vaguely, is called meditation'. One has to distinguish 2 kind: Developement of tranquility( samtha-bhavana ),i.e. concentration(samadhi), and developement of insight( vipasna-tilakkana) of Insight( vipassana-bhavana),i.e. wisdom( panna).

These two important terms, Tanquility and Insight(ssamatha-vipassna), are very often met with and explained in the sutra, as wellas in the Abhidamma.
Tranquily( samatha) is the concerntrated, unshaken peaceful and therefore undefiled state of mind, whilst Insight( vipassana) is the intuitive insight into the Impermancecy,Misery and Impersonality( anicca dukkha, anatta;s.tilakkana) of all bodliy and mental phenomena of existance, include inthe 5 group of exsistance, namly corporeality,feeling, perception,mental formations and cosciousness; s.kahnada

Tranquilty, or concentration of mind, according to sankahepavannana( commentary to Abhidhammattha-sangaha),bestows a threefold blessing: Favorble rebirth, a present happy life and purity of mind which is the condition of Insight. Concentration( samadhi) is the indespensable foudation and precondition of Insight by purifying the mind from the 5 mental defilements or hindrance.( nivrana, q.v)
whilst Insight( vipassana) produce the 4 supermundane stage of Holiness and deiverance of mind. The Buddha therefore say: May you develpe mental concerntration, O monks; For whoso is mentally concerntrated,sees things according to realty"( S.XXII,5 ). And inmil. itis said: "jsut as when a lighted lamp is brought into dark chamber.the lamp-light will destory the darkness and produce and spread the light just so will Insight,once arisen destory the darkness of Ignorance and produce the light of knowlege."

Think agian of meaning of the Meditation/Zen.
This is only portion of one of three words equal to "meditation" in English.
I am not teacher ,scholar nor trained monk. I am just a gardener. I do not quliyfy to teach Buddhism, I am only expressing my finding and own thought.
You need to have Good books and/or visit to the temple and find it out your self. ..........................mike

Mike's postings and his comment -

"How many of those writers have studied Buddhism deeply befor writing books ? probably not many, specialy English garden writers."

- reminds me that it is indeed difficult to find any books at all on the topic (let alone among gardening books) that are addressed to westerners. A few are even written by westerners, though I have no idea of their comparative worth.

Having said that, there are two - Buddhism, An Introduction and Guide, and Exploring Buddhism, both written by Christmas Humphreys. I've found them interesting reading - though, as I say, I'm not qualified to comment on their worth compared to other Buddhist literature.

Herb

Hi Herb

Try to visit to Temples. Most Temples have books for English speaker. Some of books are free distributon, You will not find those books at book store.
At first, I did not trust Buddhism books writen in English, but not now, There are so many good books which easy to understand Buddhism...........
Below is part of " What the Buddha taught" by Walpola Rahula
It may help you to understand what is Zen. one of famus word of Zen by Rinzai Daishi " kyoge betus den "
I will look for Good Buddhism books in English for readers of J garden forum. once you can understand Zen, purland Buddhism and Buddhism general, it make you much easer to understand Japanese garden.

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man's position, according to Buddhism, is supreme. Man is his own master, and there is no higher being or power that sits in jugement over his disiny.
'One is one's own refuge, who else could be the the refuge? Said the Buddha. He admonished his deciples to be "refuge to themselve", and never to seek refuge in or help from anybody else. He taught , encouraged and stimulated each person to develope himself and to work out his own emancipation, for man has the power to liberate himself from all bondage thought his own personal effort and intelligence. The Buddha says: you should do your work for the* Tathagatas only teach the way. If buddha is to be called a saviour at all, it is only in the sense that he discover and show the path to liberation,* Nirvana. But we must tread the path ourself.

* Tahagata: lit. means "One who has come to truth" i.e One who has discovered truth". This is the term usarly used by Guddha referring to himself and to the Buddhas in general.

* Nirvana : Ultimate reality, absolute truth,lit. 'browing out,extenction'
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Most of us try to understand Zen from great zen masters from the past and read Koan, Hekiganroku, Rinzairoku etc Not forcusing what Buddha taught or his words. Put zen book side for a while and learn first what Buddha taught, then read Zen books. it is so much easer to understand Zen book afetr learned what Buddha said..................

Every single Temple you walk into wecome you. Just ask ^-^ with smile. it is alway works well no matter of where, when and who.
If you can visit to Portland OR, I can ask a monk to meet with you. he speaks perfect English............mike

Herb, you asked if we see similarity between the Reed Madden installation and the "Zen Garden" you posted. No, I don't see it. Well, actually, I do see what you're getting at. They're both mainly rock on a gravel base, mostly devoid of plants, with a simple and uncomplicated design.

But the Reed Madden design strikes me as replicating nature (okay, not the wall exactly). The dry creekbed, the jumble of stones, the dry dusty look of it...all very different than the precisely placed and manicured precision of the Japanese garden. Both are purposeful in their design, but only one looks like it. They just don't have the same essence.

Just my .02

GingerBlue

Ginger,

You quite correctly see the rock on a gravel base, few plants and uncomplicated design, but apparently not much else. When you say the Reed Madden creations don't have the same essence, I sense that you were looking for an essentially Zen character in the Reed Madden creations.

I readily concede that the Reed Madden creations are not 'Zen' gardens, any more than any of us is 100% the same as only one of our parents.

But - and maybe you need to be familiar with the Australian terrain to sense it - they do express the very essence of the outback. They give me the feeling that there must be termite mounds somewhere nearby.

Consider the picture I'm now posting. The middle one is a Reed Madden Dry stream: the others are dry streams in Zen gardens.

Dry streams in a Zen gardens evoke the idea of water. They give you the feeling of the presence of water. But the Reed Madden dry stream gives you the feeling of the absence of water. It reminds you of the truth that water has flowed in such stream beds before, and will do so, briefly, again - sometime.

Just as Zen gardens represent something that the Japanese people greatly value and even revere, so the Reed Madden designs represent something that the Aboriginal people of Australia greatly value and revere. For me they induce contemplation - not Zen contemplation, but a contemplation in it's own right.

The foregoing is why I consider that there is such a strong connection. The Reed Madden designs have derived a great deal from the Zen style of garden. I view them as a development of it.

Herb

Click here for the picture

I have to admit, I did not read entirely through the whole thread.
I usually enjoy reading a good debate because I learn something, and this is always a very intellectual group of people to learn from, but I felt as though too much literal detail was being forced on the poor word " Zen".

I'm going to put a California spin on the whole Zen and Reed Madden debate .

Generically speaking, when someone asks for a Zen garden to be designed here on the laid back West Coast they aren't looking for some replica of a Japanese styled garden.
They are simply looking for a garden that they think exudes a Zen like feeling or tranquility ; basically they are looking for a Mood.
Nothing more nothing less.

Most people who I have come in contact with who are interested in having a Zen garden designed for them have no idea or any concern about having a Japanese styled garden replicated in their back yard.
They are simply hard working people who want a calm peaceful garden space to come home to at the end of a stressful day.

They just want to" Zen Out'.
A Zen like quality evokes mediative reflectiveness .

The new Australian garden at the Strybing Arboretum with the Reed Madden wall evokes a zen like feeling. It inspires one to simply sit , reflect and breath. ( well, at least that is the effect it had on me when I visited it )

It's that simple.

______________

Gosh , I hope the above debate is not indicative of what I'm am going to find myself in the midst of when enrolled in the upcoming Japanese Garden class in Kyoto.
I was hoping for more of a Zen like experience.

Mich,
Most people interpret "zen garden" the way you described it. The seminar you attend will be very applied, I'm sure. You'll get some historic background and perspective on Japanese garden origins, then launch into method and technique. No worries.

Gardens based originally on philosophic or religious thought can have a lot of esoteric baggage attached to them. But Japanese-originated garden styles have become so culturally mainstream that very few people are concerned with the deeper meanings or origins. Most just want to learn how to design a space that captures the "feel."

The institution whose program you're attending appears to be focused on the practical and hands-on. Have fun. :)

Hi Michell

I do understand perfectly what you are saying. when I move to North and learn Buddhism and Zen enough , then I remove relegion and use only element of Japanese garden.
Being Japanese if I do not follow tredtional way , then someone from Japan pointing finger to me and will say "This Japanese don't know what he is doing." Then I ask them 'Do you read sutra ? What sutra(s) you have been read ?, what is Zen ? where Shumisen idea come from ? What sutra said/ explaning Shumisen ? What Zen is trying to teach ?

I will ask them something they think they know but cannot answer....... hehehe

Knowing and not useing it or not useing becourse don't know is big different. Time to time I am asked about it. It is nice to able to answer the questions..... If customer see your blond hair, He may not ask you too much about it. ^-^ ...mike

Herb, thank you for another example of describing what you mean about the similarities in the gardens. I admit, I know very little about Japanese Gardens...I popped in here from another forum. I understand exactly what you mean about the difference in the meaning of water in the gardens. And once you point it out, it's obvious.

However, what I meant really had little to do with "Zen". I simply meant that the Reed Madden landscape was made to appear natural. It is the equivalent of realism as in an Edward Hopper or a Winslow Homer piece. The Japanese Gardens that you showed are not made to appear natural. They make their point through the use of natural objects, but with an obvious artificiality and much symbolism. Much like what is seen in Japanese art.

And I also see this richly symbolic yet contrived artistry in Christian iconography as well, so it's not just a Japanese thing!

GingerBlue

Mike,
We have a saying in English that could be analogous to your story, " ignorance is bliss'.
I invoke this mantra often myself, and I'm not even a blond.
: ~ )

HI Michell
We do it same.... ^-^ Zen and Blond hair have same problems...............mike

There's a photograph of a tsukubai in the Zen Garden at Entokuin that, along with its surroundings, also has a character strongly similar to the Zen-inspired masterpieces created by Reed Madden -

Mich

"Ignorance is bliss" is the most Zen sentence in the English language; I suspect you know more than you think you do...

P.S. Any chance you met my buddy Sheila Wertheimer in Kyoto?

Scott

have you people lost your minds?:) (although that may be the most zen thing one could do, maybe not)
NOTHING IS ORIGINAL
it has all been done before, nothing new under the sun, ect.
all things are interrelated, so adhering to some puritanical ideal of a philosophy of a thing (as opposed to ACTUALLY doing a thing)is so totally about snobbery and being cranky. of course i have done this too, but alas...actually doing or being is a more appropriate way to understand zen, if one can understand.
i read buddhist philosophy all the time. not that i know anything, no matter how much you read it matters not.i was raised as a tantric buddhist, and my older brother is more of a zen buddhist, if you can call it that. difference being, he believes in sudden enlightenment, simplicity of means, ect. i believe in multitude of means to enlightenment, one must employ whatever neccessary, including good/evil because all these things are trancended when used. we are both mahayana buddhists because we believe that there is no 'out there' nirvana as seperate from samsara here. and one should help all other sentient beings to acheieve enlightenment, because of the interpenatratedness of being no one can 'be' enlightened without the whole anyway.
the other lesser-vehicle dudes believe you can reach an ultimate enlightenment individually (totally western, i know) and are more focused on accumulative karma and junk. more 'indian' or original in form, if you like.
peeing on a statue can be enlightenment. this conversation is if you glimpse something beyond the delusion in this insane duality(only perpetuated by samantics, but just as well, sometimes the confusion that results from a conversation like this causes all intellectual concepts to fall away, and there you are (there is everything, and nothing and here and it was all the time))yikes so do i make any sense or are you all enlightened yet:)
is this a koan?:)

nicoviolet -

I haven't the faintest idea.

Herb

I don't think you are the only one Herb

Niwashisan -

It's a relief to know that.....

Herb

*I'm* confusing to *you*?:) after the conversation ya'll are having? i was just describing my understanding of zen vs. other schools of thought or practices. sorry, prob totally irrelevant. conversations like this make my mind over stimulated, and i start with the blabbing...:)

Nico, there is only one good way to enlightenment and that is YOUR OWN way. Sounds like you have a good start.

Some of the old Zen masters like Eihei Dogen and Muso Soseki valued sitting in a garden most highly; not much thought required there and yet the rewards are HUGE, even if you don't reach enlightenment...we're mostly about gardens and less about the Zen here (despite the occasional outburst... :)))...)