An injection method is the best way to brine and cure it. Morton makes a good quality meat pump that holds 4 ounces of brine. Usually you have to inject at least 20% brine to the weight of the meat. Here, I inject, as well as vacuum process, but the use of a Food Saver container and a special vacuum pump I set up to pull a vacuum on the meat and its brine, which will allow the brine to penetrate deeper. Beef takes 2-3 days to brine, lean pork 1-2 days, if its a fat layer, an extra day is needed. Without a brine meat pumping, the meat would need up to 5 days in the brine to properly cure. If its intended to be smoked as a ham, it should also have nitrates added (very small quantity) to help it retain freshness and prevent spoilage. Adding a bit of maple syrup. or brown sugar is ok too. The salt amount, doesn't appear to be the right ratio for water. I make Canadian bacon from whole boneless pork loins and they come out great. I use a prepackaged brine and just add te necessary water and nitrates. Mortons Tender Quick can also work, if you only do the occaisonal cure, but the Morton is premixed with nitrates, so you have less control over its ratio to salt, etc. Phosphates are another help, as they give he meat more moisture retention as well as prevent dry stringy meat. One of my favorite sites is below. You can trim some of the thickest fat off, as well as its skin. I use the fat and skin in sausage making as well as in pepperoni. The nice thing about pork fat and skin, it can be thawed and refrozen if necessary.

Here is a link that might be useful: Butcher Packer supply

Ken,

Thanks much! That is a great website.

Not wanting to cure this time. Just prep the meat for smoking. I purposely cut back on the salt because I've never brined for more than a day before and was afraid to get too salty.

Too much salt and too much smoke are things that I really seem to be sensitive to.

Given my circumstances would you score the fat?

jt

My 2 cents worth -- I would score or at least puncture the skin -- perhaps you could take a thin knife blade and stab the meat, or a metal knitting needle or large clean nail to make puncture wounds so the brine could penetrate better. Smallish punctures shouldn't adversely affect the cooking process.

Scoring the skin is fine, if your going to also cook it in the smoker. This kind of meat curing isn't really a finished meat, but helps to add necessary moisture to it so that the smoking doesn't dry it out too much. Keep in mind that virtually no smoke flavor will ever reach the inner most part of the meat near the bones. Thats the main reason an injection is done. If the meat were less than 2 inches thick at any place on the shoulder or butt, it would probably brine without a pump, if the meat is left in the proper brine for 3 days. I also use liquid smoke (hickory) and inject that as part of the brining. As mentioned, that small amount of salt will not affect the flavor very much beyond a half inch into the meat. With a half inch of skin and fat, the brine will never reach the insides, and neither will much smoke flavor unless its smoked very slowly for about a day or two. A recent TV show had a tour of a ham factory where they showed brining needles injecting every inch of the meat, They did trim off the skin once it was smoked, but sprayed on a flavor coating and then shrink wrapped them.

Well, here is where I am at the moment. Go ahead and click on it:

My bi-monthly Remicade infusion treatment at KU Med Center took too much out of me on Wednesday so I let sit in the brine for an additional day. Started smoking abt 11 in the morning yesterday using lump charcoal as the base with an occasional large chunk of seasoned Texas pecan wood dampering down to keep smoke chamber temps between 225 and 250° max. After 7 hours had an internal meat temp of 125° and added more wood before going to bed. Am guessing that the fire in the off-set chamber kept going for another 3 hours. Temps in the 20s so was not worried abt refrigerating the meat.

What I do next is pressure cook the meat with chicken broth for the liquid and some onions, a little celery, a carrot or two and what ever herbs hit my fancy at the moment.

After an hour or so in the pressure cooker at 15 lbs pressure I separate the meat from the bone and fat & decide what to add to it for burritos.

Note to self... the picnic is too big. Next time ask butcher to cut in half. I'm going to remove the fat and skin to get volume down to fit in the pressure cooker. Really want to keep the bone in for flavor, but might change mind when I get to sizing for the cooker.

Just an FYI. The last time I bought pork, it was from Costco. They sell two boneless butts at about $1.79 a pound. Its all meat, very little fat, and no bones to deal with. The butt bone is a bit harder to get to compared to the shoulder. In any case, when I make my next batch of sausages, the meat will be from Costco. You need to ask them, as they don't usually put many out on the display.

Pressure cooking your pork will really make it tender. A long slow smoking like more than 12 hours at a temp of 225 is OK, and internal should reach 160 for it to be done, if you just wanted it smoked cured. But as mentioned before, you would need the proper amount of salt, water, sugar, and nitrates if you want it to be a pink color. he addition of the phosphate also helps to keep it moist. Wish I had a smoker here that would work during winter. All I have is a home made one 'ah la Alton Brown', made from two big flower pots, a hotplate, and a round replacement grill. The 1000 watt electric hot plate would need another 500 watts to get it to keep above 180 degrees inside. Not an option to wrap it on the outside with some kind of insulation, as its just too bulky and awkward.

Ken,

I remember your smoker well. Alton Brown is my favorite and I have all his DVDs.

My final results were different than expected. Tasted and looked like ham. Texture about the same too. I said 1 gallon water for the brine in initial post and it was actually 12 cups. It was very good, but not what I was shooting for. Just can't say enough good abt lump charcoal for smoking.

So plans are now to make a baked beans burrito mix and a hash browns and scrambled eggs with sharp cheddar mix. Raw diced sweet onions, green bell peppers, celery & hot peppers added just before rolling and freezing. My Aribibi Gusano pepper plants are loaded with ripe ones and that is what I think will use for the heat.

jt,

All good advice thus far. If I may, you may want to check out the Big Green Egg forum. The folks there are fanatics on slow smoking and real BBQ (yes, I own a Big Green Egg).

If you post your question there I'm sure you'll get great advice from expert Q folks.

Bill

Here is a link that might be useful: Egg forum

Bill,

I've spent many hours on that forum although it's been a couple years since last visit. We take our BBQing very seriously here in the Kansas City area. I think my scoring question was a no-brainer. The Big Green Eggs are expensive which is why I didn't buy one when starting out. My first smoker was an electric Little Chief and the one I use mostly now is an off-set firebox Char Broil.

Ended up with 3 lbs of usable meat. I think was like $1.09 a lb and not that great a bargain if you think about it. Only maybe 1/2 had good smoked flavor. However, the gelatinous stuff left in the pressure cooker weighed abt 2 lbs and was fantastic. The fat solidified on the surface after cooling and was easy to remove. The remainder I stirred into the meat.

It's a bit of a stretch posting this thread in a 'harvest' forum except that I'll be using hot peppers that I grew. Peppers are a part of almost everything that I cook.

jt

Hey jt,

Whatever works for you... I envy your temps in Kansas!

Yes, Eggs are expensive, even more so when I bought my large one. Canadian $ was 1.60 to 1 US $.

For me up north here above the 49th, the Egg is the only thing that can hold heat at -20 to -40. It can hold a 150F to 350F temp at any external temp without burning extra fuel. A metal smoker can't do that.

Anyhow, not the right topic for this forum. Glad you found something that you like and works for you. My original suggestion was to point you to folks that could answer your brining question.

Peace,

Bill

If your using a cheddar, give the Cabot extra sharp cheddar a try. I like their Hunters cheese and also their 3 year old aged cheddar. Something about Cabot cheese is they just taste much more natural compared to awful things like Cracker Barrel and other Kraft crap.
My baked beans are probably not like you enjoy. Mine are made with molasses, brown sugar, mustard powder, coriander, onion, either pork fat back or a chunk of bacon, and of course pea beans. Baked about 6 hours.

Bill,

It was my thread, not your reply that was a topic stretch. I get into more trouble for wording things poorly on forums. :( Funny thing about being too cold up there for smoking with some units in the wintertime. Where I live in Missouri it is too hot in the summer to run my Little Chief at the lower temps that I want.

Ken,

Your beans sound wonderful. Seriously. And I do buy the Cabot extra sharp cheddar. Cabot sells some excellent pepper cheeses too. My Sam's Club carries them and Wally World carries the extra sharp.

jt

Where else can you get a good recpe fro Boston Baked Beans.. As a kid, my dad and I would go into Haymarket in Boston, on Saturday mornings. At that time, there were horses there pulling some of the push carts loaded with fruits and vegetables. Faneuil Hall was a decrepid mess, and the Durgin Park resturant had a line around the corner. Out of curiousity, I asked a person in line what was the big attraction there, and they told me it was the baked beans! My mom used some black strap molasses in hers. I still have her very old bean pot my grandmother gave her. Another good Cabot cheese is the garlic and dill flavor. Even their Monteray Jack was really good too.

Ken,

I canÂt help you with Boston Baked, but these are very, very good beans.

Madame Benoit (long since past) was a pioneering expert in Canadian cookery (a la French Canadian Habitant (1904-1987). She once said "this is one of my family recipes".

I still have cookbook chapters that were published weekly, and available in grocery stores in Montreal back in the late 60Âs. My mother collected them and I still have a 6 inch stack of a book that guides you through skinning a fresh caught rabbit, cooking fresh beaver, roasting a whole pig through making the ultimate Béarnaise sauce.

If youÂre game, give them a shot. YouÂll have to use Canadian Maple Syrup to really do it right! LOL

All the best,

Bill

--------------------------------

MAPLE SYRUP RUM BAKED BEANS
4 cups dried navy beans
12 cups cold water
1 tsp soda
1 lb. fat & lean salt pork, sliced
1 large onion
1 tsp dry mustard
1 cup maple syrup
1 tbsp coarse salt
4 cored apples, unpeeled
1 cup maple or light brown sugar
½ cup butter
½ cup dark rum

Cover the beans with 12 cups cold water & let soak overnight.
In the morning, pour the whole thing in a large saucepan.
Add 1 teaspoon soda and more cold water to cover the beans if necessary.
Bring to a boil, uncovered, then boil until some of the skins come off when you blow on the beans.
Line a bean pot with the sliced pork, then pour in the beans and their water.
Roll the onion in the dry mustard until all of the mustard sticks to it, then bury it in the middle of the beans.
Pour the maple syrup and course salt on top.
Bake 4 - 5 hours in the oven at 325 degrees.
In the last hour of cooking, cover the beans with the whole apples, placed as close together as possible.
Cream together the sugar and butter, then spread the mixture on top of the apples. (This forms a most delicious topping when the beans are baked.)
Pour the rum on top just before serving.

Sounds like an interesting bean recipe with apples added. My choice is to add a bit or ketchup when I serve mine. My dad loved knockwurst with is baked beans. My mom found that even though navy beans are a little bigger in size, she could never get a consistant batch to be soft enough after baing baked. She described one batch like BBs bouncing onto the plate when she served them. She decided, as do I, to uuse the smaller dried pea beans instead, as they seemed to be a more consistant texture. My bean recipe is quite old and has been my moms favorite 'tweaked' recipe for many years.

Rolled an even doz 3/4 pound butt/bean burritos yesterday and ran out of cheese. Went to town today and bought more so can finish up the pot of fixings. Saw a Cabot cheese that have not tried before: {{gwi:967274}} Haven't sampled yet.

YES YES YES!! Thats the one I wrote about. It is very seriously sharp! I bought a big 3 pound block of it. A little was used in my potatoes Au Gratin. Sliced red skin potatoes, a bit of chopped onion, a teaspoon of dry mustard, American cheese and some of that seriously sharp cheddar, milk, and margerine. Baked until potatoes are tender and bubbly. I sprinked some Frenchs' toasted onions on top too.

I thought the Seriously Sharp was darn good too. Sliced into 8 one ounce pieces and used as 1st layer on my last 8 burritos. Topped the burrito mix with slices of the habanero cheese (not very hot) and froze them to vac seal today. Sounds like a lot of cheese, but I build pretty big burritos.

That's enough burritos for now although I still want to make apple pie dessert ones. My dad always put a big slice of cheddar cheese on top of his apple pie. They go together really well.

Making chili today I think. Had a disappointment buying the meat yesterday. Picked out a pork roast and a beef roast and asked the butcher to grind together with 1/2" plates & she informed me that the health dept made them stop mixing meats just a few weeks ago. Ended up buying their "chili grind" ground beef & regular grind pork off the shelf.

I was just going to mention that a slice of cheddar in the apple pie is a great taste enhancer. Cardimon as a ground spice also works well in apple pies.
If you have a food processor with sharp blades, you can chop meats as fine as you like. Chili is one of those candidates that works very well with beef and pork that were chopped in a food processor. The more you pulse/run the machine the finer the bits. You usually get various sized bits and that makes for a nice texture in a chili. Buying the meats as whole cuts is also cheaper. Ground chuck, vs. a chunk of boneless chuck. The already ground is $2.39, the whole chuck is $1.79 a pound. I've bought whole chuck down to $1.19 a pound sometimes. I never buy any ground meats anymore as I also have a meat grinder with several plate sizes (like one one below). I have even bought a few more plates from The Sausage Maker company as they have plates that fit the grinder.

Here is a link that might be useful: Northern Tool

Ken,

I bought that very grinder because of your recommendation some months back and have yet to take it out of the box. Sausage making is something I eventually want to try, but just have not had time yet. It should pay for itself in a few years time. And I really like the idea of picking out the meat before it is ground up and buying when on sale.

Chili turned out great and I'm going to use a good portion of it to make burritos today. Plus I cooked a bunch of burgers for the freezer too. The 3 parts beef, 1 part pork and 1 part Johnsonville Hot sausage worked. I had planned to make out of beef, pork & bacon, but the butcher wouldn't do it.

Time to get rolling burritos & vac sealing the burgers. My freezer is filling up again.

jt, I just wanted to tell you that the smoked pork looks fantastic, as does Bill's beans. My family always made beans much like Ken's, just beans, molasses, brown sugar, mustard, catsup, glop it all together until it tastes right and cover it with bacon. I love 'em, and I'm always game for a new recipe, so thanks.

Off topic? Nah, SOMEONE harvested that pork butt, and sold it to you!

Annie

ottawapepper ,

Thanks for the Baked Bean recipe. Making it tonight for sure.

Everyone here PLEASE go over to the Suggestion forum and ask for a Meat/Sausage/Bacon forum. I have a post over there and we now have 4 more folks who have responded. I also sent a message to GW on their "contact us" form asking for a meat forum. The Vegetarians have a forum....
Link to suggestion forum below. The more people who ask for a Meat forum the more likely we are to get one from GW.

DL

Here is a link that might be useful: Suggestion Forum on GW

Mmm, it is SO slow-cooked-meat-and-bean weather these days....

I'll have to try your recipe, Bill.

The first appliance that DH and I ever bought together was an old-fashioned crank meat grinder.

He had been pining for an old recipe his mom used to make, "Ham Balls," which combines meatballs of ground pork and ground ham in a sweet & sour (brown sugar & cider vinegar) sauce. I tried to make it for him but couldn't find ground ham in our neighbourhood.

Shortly after we had made the decision that I'd move in with him but before I'd actually done so, we were in a second-hand store in upstate NY and saw the grinder for $8.

First thing I cooked for him when I moved in was the ham balls; we bought a little Piller black forest ham, cut it into big chunks, and fed them through twice.

We still use it sometimes for that purpose, though not for much else. Once I ground some lamb with it but got it too fine --- almost like a paste --- blech.

Zabby, the queen of off topic...... (can I claim to have harvested the grinder from the store???)

Zabby,
Spam=chopped ham..

I had a question then a comment. Sounds like a lot of you make up burritos of various types and freeze them. I'm assuming the eggs and cheese if you use those hold up well in the reheat? Do you use them as a quick micro meal or better in the oven?
My comment was a little OT but oh well ;) Cabot's Seriously Sharp cheese is my all time favorite and now I wouldn't really enjoy anything else. When we lived in KY, I frequently shopped in a store in Clarksville, TN. There was a Cabot display and samples there, from the Cabot people and not just the store. I talked with one of the guys and detected his accent was more "downeasty" than even Vermont...keep in mind that I'm from Maine originally. After a brief chat I found out that he once lived in my mother's home town and had taken her on a date back in the days, LOL!!! Small world. Lori

I was born in VT. Many of my mothers relatives lived there too. A couple of years ago, I was in Burlington VT visiting an uncle, and found a shop that sells cheese ends. Basically, they are bits, chunks, and all shapes and sizes of Cabot cheeses. The cost per pound was only about $2, but that was because they had several different cheddar chunks all clumped together. I bought about 8 pounds and it took a while to use it all up. I make a 'mean' mac and cheese, and use a bit of mustard powder as well as onions, and some Velveta to get it to be a bit more creamy. I mix in some no fat milk, along with a big dollop of margerine. Its mostly Cabot chedddars though, and is a real 'comfort' food. Mixed with some bits of cooked hamburg, you now have even more flavor and texture. There is a specific brand and type of pasta I use, which is a bit larger than regular elbows, and it gets cheese inside each elbow, its a 'casserole' type pasta.. Yum!

An interesting thing about pepper, is that once its freshly ground and added as a meat rub and baked, the 'heat' will deminish. Tellicherry peppercorns are one of the best there is.

I make an 'egg mcmuffin' with eggs, either homemade sausage patties, or slices of home made Canadian bacon. These are placed bewteen a split, toasted English muffin, with a slice of American cheese. I have a round metal ring form that I use to make the egg portion, and use both the 'Egg Beaters' product, but also add some powdered egg. It cooks up much firmer and holds up better to freezing. I use 6 inch wide FS bags and then freeze them. When I want one, its an easy thing to leave sealed, and allow it to heat in the microwave for about a minute. I flip it over and continue to thaw/heat it. The bag will expand and pop open due to steam buildup. Once that happens its usually done. The popping of the plastic bag can be heard, but doesn't seem to explode any of the contents inside the microwave. Only problem I see is that becaue of the intense heat, the muffins (which contain gluten) will firm up, making for a very chewy muffin, kind of like a bagel. If I want it to be a bit more tender, its removed from the plastic bag, and is wrapped in a paper towel and heated a bit slower, with about 40 second intervals while flipping it over a couple of times. A 1000 watt microwave is what I have, so your results may differ. Both the eggs and cheese are fine when frozen and thawed, and I even see a bit more moisture coming from the egg part, so thats a good sign.

We brined a Pork Butt for 24 hours, covered it with brown sugar and chili power and braized it really done on all sides. Then on the smoker (offset fire box) for about 7 hours. I was smoking with charcoal to start heating the cooker up, then straight Mesquite wood and adding some Apple tree cuttings to keep the smoke going. Temp ran about 200 to 225 degrees throughout the time frame. The butt got up to about 150 and then went flat for almost an hour and then started on back up. I pulled it off at 180 degrees internal and let it rest for an hour in the cold oven inside.

I know some of you think that is over cooked, but with the 87 year old MIL living with us, she needs it VERY tender for her to handle it. As usual, it was nice and juicy and tender. The meat was pink for about 1-1/2 inches down into the meat from the smoke.

The apple tree cuttings were from the pruning operation a week ago. I saved the cuttings, trimmed the finger diameter ones up to about 8 inches long and fed them in the smoke box 5 or 6 at the time. Amazing how green they still were even after us having a number of mornings with temps below 20.

always before, the cuttings just went into the trash bag, but not any more. I think I have hit the big time on recycling those apple cuttings.

On a side note about the sausage making. I bought the grinder and stuffer from Northern. Grinder works fine, but stuffer (3lb on sale for $12.00) no good comments. The plunger that goes down into the machine has too much clearance around it and the meat just squirts out around it. We had a continual operation of raising the plunger, putting the meat back into the hopper and making another squeeze. Each time, it seems that the meat squirted around the plunger more and more. I will be posting some negative comments on their listing for the stuffer.

I say, don't waste your money on it.

Bob

Zabby, DL,

Did you try the bean recipe? If so, any comments???

Avidchamp,

I always do my beef and pork butts on a ceramic smoker without brining. I take it off and pull it at 190 Â 200 and it always come out moist. Pulled beef or pork always pleases a crowd!

The pause you noted at 150 is normal. The fat in the cut starts rendering around 160 and stays there for a while. That is what makes this poor cut of meat a treat the rendered fat soaks through the cut and cooks it from within.

Bill

Cooking any meat to 190 to 200 is overcooking. Cooking even with a lot of fat outside will still make a meat dry out if its cooked that high a temperature. If you do brine it, suggest you INJECT the meat cure inside as the curing brine will never reach the bone without injection. I use some phosphates that react with the fibers of the meat and help it hold onto moisture. Smoking does leave a reddish color outside as it adds that natural nitrogen produced in the smoke. If its needing to be very tender, even a shorter smoking time and a long slow 180 to 200 degree oven after just a few hours of smoking will work well too. An eye of the round roast is super lean and isn't one intended for using as a decent tender roast or steaks, unless its sliced very thin (like paper). If you cook that same piece of meat in a very low oven starting at about 150 and progressivly going to 220 degees (10 degrees per hour), after about 5-6 hours the meat will finally reach about 160 inside, and will be very tender. Both beef and pork work well that way. Yes, I also see a pause at 150 degrees, and just allow the meat to sit there until it goes slowly up to 160. Its done then, and needs no more heat or cooking. This is true with most cured sausages, corned beef, cold cuts, hams, etc.
In the link below to Northern Tool, the photos show both a vertical piston type and that odd oval shaped lever/plunger type stuffer. I can't see any decent amount of stuffing going on using that lever type as they are cast iron or cast aluminium and lack the precision diameters inside that help to maintain a seal when the lever and plunger is pushed in. I have only used the vertical cylinder types and these have always worked well for me when stuffing. My current one is huge and is able to push many pounds of meat through without any seepage getting behind the piston and its rubber gasket. Many other companies also sell thase vertical types, and they are far superior to the lever plunger type. The 5 pound verical stuffer at Northern is a gem, and will give you a much easier way to stuff without a mess. My original one had only a single gear, so you had to crank backwards many times to get he piston back out of the cylinder. My newer one as two speeds and it tkes just 5-6 turns to get the piston out of the 12+ inch long cylinder, for the next filling.

Here is a link that might be useful: Stuffer choices

Hi Ken,

I guess IÂm basing my previous comments on my experience using my setup and serving method. IÂm not looking for an argument!!! LOL

In hindsight, I should have qualified my response better.

For myself, I usually cook at least a 10lb butt because itÂs usually for entertaining. Personally, IÂve never carved it like you would a traditional roast so I donÂt doubt your advice is bang on. I do mine exclusively on my smoker, never did one in the oven. I always cook my butts low-and-slow, un-brined (although I have talked to many real BBQ folks that swear by brining), over lump charcoal and hickory at an average 200F Â 225F for very roughly 1 hour 30 minutes per pound. I have pulled it off earlier at 170F internal temp but found it did not pull very well. 180F to 200F internal works best for my setup. Always pulls into fine moist stringy parcels and is served on plain toasted hanburger buns with either Western North Carolina (Piedmont) or Caribbean Citrus Hot sauce. There are rarely any leftovers.

I guess the end result all depends on the performance of the tool you are using and your preference for serving. Accuracy of your thermometer also helps LOL, donÂt ask me how I know! I must say, after reading your post, I will give your approach a try. IÂm sure it will turn out great.

I guess IÂm really straying off topic here so IÂll cease and desist before IÂm banned to the Cooking Outdoors forum for perpetuity!

All the best,

Bill

Bill writes: >I guess IÂm really straying off topic here so IÂll cease and desist before IÂm banned to the Cooking Outdoors forum for perpetuity!

Yikes! Is that place dead or what??

This is where I live.. http://www.rbjb.com/rbjb/bbq.htm

jt

Here is a link that might be useful: Cooking Outdoors Forum

You only get kicked off here if you have a heated arguement and name calling starts. Thats usually is not the case, at least for me. In any event, I do use a very accurute digial thermometer to measure the meat temps and its usually placed deep, between any bones if possible. I also try to avoid inserting into any fat as that will throw off the readings too. What youre doing is making 'pulled pork', which can be cooked that high if you like. They do serve it with lots of sauces though, so any dryness isn't noticable. Yes, long slow cooking is the best way to get meat super tender. A brined pork, then cooked like you do, would certainly give you a really good texture in the finished product. I don't post anywhere else but here. Just too much out there to deal with. I just spent two hours on a support explaing how to repair a Gateway Profile 4 computer. Now its back to fixing two big huge TVs my frend dropped off here last week. A foot of snow outside and I'm happy...