I think that because there is probably an acid added, it may be a little safer in small 8 ounce jars. I would have gone with the large amount of sugar needed, but as you mentioned it uses a low/no sugar pectin. Without a recipe list of ingredients, its only speculation.

There is no acid added.. that is what surprised me. I tried to add a link using tiny url but was threatened to be banned from this site. So will just paste the ingredient list, which is:

3-1/2 cups canned pumpkin
1/2 cup PLANTERS Pecan Pieces, toasted
1 Tbsp. pumpkin pie spice
2-3/4 cups sugar, divided, measured into separate bowls1 box SURE.JELL For Less or No Sugar Needed Recipes Premium Fruit Pectin
1/2 tsp. butter or margarine

Instructions go on as usual and includes: (Water must cover jars by 1 to 2 inches. Add boiling water, if necessary.) Cover; bring water to gentle boil. PROCESS 10 MIN. Remove jars and place upright on a towel to cool completely. After jars cool, check seals by pressing middle of lid with finger. (If lid springs back, lid is not sealed and refrigeration is necessary.)

According to NCHFP "The only directions for canning pumpkin and winter squash are for cubed pulp. In fact, the directions for preparing the product include the statement, "Caution: Do not mash or puree." That has been stated many times on this very site, by others.

So, is the mentioned recipe safe strictly because canned pumpkin is used, even though it is pureed? I don't think so. It is so very low in acid, I still wouldn't dare make it.. and especially with a 10 minute BWB!

Crystal

I was wondering, I've read a lot of posts about pumpkin butter not being safe.
Is it safe if you can it in a pressure canner? I'm pressure canning pumpkin right now, and have for years with no problems.
Have that many people gotten sick from eating pumpkin butter? Is that why all the alarm? Don't bite my head off answering, I just wondered...LOL...

I sent them an email inquiring about this recipe. I did ask if using commercial pumpkin was a factor (though if you post a recipe on a site like that, you can't trust that people won't vary it). I also appended the link from the NCHFP. We'll see if there's any response.

I almost never visit that site and I was very surprised to see it posted. The 10-minute processing time was really a shocker, since that's generally only for high-acid jams and jellies, which this definitely is not. Sugar doesn't alter pH, but sugar is a dessicant, so theoretically enough sugar will bind up the water botulism spores require. I wouldn't take any bets on that, though. In an earlier thread on pumpkin butter I mentioned a high-sugar recipe I used to post for canning, but now I recommend refrigeration or freezing or canning chunks and then making up batches as needed.

Puréed pumpkin, squash, etc. are no longer recommended for canning, even with a pressure-canner. The pH of pumpkin varies greatly (as does water content); that, coupled with the density issue, led the NCHFP and Ball, Bernardin, Extension agencies all reliable sources to pull these recipes.

I suppose theoretically you could pressure can as for something like fish. Pressure can anything long enough and it's likely you've taken care of the risk, but I wouldn't take any guesses on how appealing the product would be at that point.

These low-acid foods are botulism specials. Personally I wouldn't risk it.

"(though if you post a recipe on a site like that, you can't trust that people won't vary it)"

That is what I thought. Up until this year I would have thought that ALMOST every recipe with sugar could be altered in some way to cut it down/out. Not that they (maybe) can't be, but I now have enough knowledge to be less than dangerous ...LOL.. and will always check when in doubt (which at this point actually happens more often). Maybe it's an age thing and I'm loosing my confidence thinking my rationalizing isn't quite level... hmmm May be a good thing that I have mostly canned fruit!

I'd also think that if the sugar was used at least in part as a desiccant, there would be a warning not to reduce sugar, just as there is a warning not to reduce acids in certain things, such as canned tomatoes.

Crystal

Actually, the recipe I used to post for a pumpkin butter did include a very definite warning not to reduce the sugar.

I'm guessing this is one recipe that slipped through the cracks at Kraft. It's a good lesson that even sites like that one are not 100% reliable.

Carol

Kraft, makes pectin, and probably doesn't test their pectin product with every possible fruit or vegetable. Assumption can be dangerous.

O.K.... Will someone please tell me I should just let this thing go?! Dang.. I do feel like the recipe has the possibility to be dangerous, and I don't think it should be left up on their site... from what I know about canning pumpkin/squash.

Here is the 'personal' response I got from Kraft:
................
Hi Crystal,

Thank you for visiting http://www.kraftfoods.com/.

I'm sorry to hear that you weren't pleased with our recipe.

Our experts in the Kraft Kitchens work hard to develop recipes that provide a good balance of flavor, nutrition and ease of use for our consumers.

If you haven't done so already, please add our site to your favorites and visit us again soon!

Kim McMiller
Associate Director, Consumer Relations
................

uh... WOW! I feel it was as almost a hybrid. Not quite an automated generation and not quite human, and am left wondering if they read English, (Please, I mean no offense to anyone). I didn't comment about the site, only about the recipe. If I had complained about their site, why would they want me to bookmark it?!

Crystal >>

Same here, Crystal. I got a similar response, which has nothing to do with the question I asked regarding the safety of the recipe. Changing ingredients???? I didn't even mention that.

However, their non-reply-reply tells me all I need to know regarding the safety of this recipe. Make small batches and freeze or refrigerate the butter.

Hi Carol,

Thank you for visiting http://www.kraftfoods.com/.

Each ingredient has its own unique function and to change an ingredient may cause less than desirable results.

Our Kitchens experts spend their time testing recipes to anticipate the needs of consumers. Any and all tested and recommended substitutions will appear on the recipe.

If you haven't done so already, please add our site to your favorites and visit us again soon!

Kim McMiller
Associate Director, Consumer Relations

Do I see a lawsuit here?? If there is a lot of sugar in this recipe product, it could act like a preservative too.

ksrogers, ...LOL .. No lawsuit. NCHFP is very specific when it states:

"More recent research with pumpkin butter has been done at the University of Missouri. Pumpkin butter is mashed or pureed pumpkin that has had large quantities of sugar added to it, but not always enough to inhibit pathogens. Sometimes an ingredient such as vinegar or lemon juice is added to the formulation to increase the acidity (decrease the pH). However, pumpkin butters produced by home canners and small commercial processors in Missouri have had pH values as high as 5.4. In fact, the pH values seemed to be extremely variable between batches made by the same formulation (Holt, 1995).

It is not possible at this point to evaluate a recipe for pumpkin or mashed squash for canning potential by looking at it. At this point, research seems to indicate variability of the products is great, and in several ways that raise safety concerns. It is best to freeze pumpkin butters or mashed squash."

Looking at the recipe as printed on-line, I MIGHT have thought it would be safe even if not stated on the NCHFP site, if it were for pressure canning only, but not the 10 min BWB.

Crystal

Join the site - it's free - and post a review on the recipe. Just slide down below it to where the "reviews" link is. That's what I just did (used some of your words Carol - thanks). ;)

The review may not get posted but maybe it will catch someone's attention besides the consumer PR robot's. ;)

Dave

Dave, I posted a review earlier but, on-site info states "Our staff will review comments for content. Inappropriate comments will not be posted." So, that won't happen.

Just want to clarify... I have used many SURE.JELL® for Less or No Sugar Needed Recipes in the past, and will continue to do so. I've never had a problem with any one that I've made, that wasn't my error. There is nothing wrong with their product. I've never made Pumpkin Butter in the past, but have a nice pumpkin setting on my porch and would have actually liked to preserve it in a way that wouldn't take up freezer space.

So, why do I care about this recipe?
It had two 5 STAR ratings. One commented that "even the picky toddlers" loved it. The other reviewer has plans to use the pumpkin butter s/he made as Christmas gifts. If it is safe to make, I would like to know it is. If it isn't, I'd like them to know. I'd just sleep better.

Crystal

Pumpkins used as Halloween decorations are mostly a 'show' pumpkin. There is a smaller, more squat type called a sugar pumpkin that is used for cooking and baking. These tend to have more flavor and less eye appeal.

I think you need to go up the food chain (so to speak). You have me curious on this one too....and nothing makes me more frustrated than an automated email response. Here's the email address for the CEO:

In addition to your safety question, I think she needs to know her PR person is not doing a very good job.

Irene Rosenfeld
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer

You can communicate directly with the independent members of our Board of Directors by e-mail at Kraft-Board@kraft.com

or by mail at Kraft Foods Board of Directors, Kraft Foods Inc., Three Lakes Drive, Northfield, IL 60093, USA, Attention: Office of the Corporate Secretary.

> If it is safe to make, I would like to know it is. If it isn't, I'd like them to know. I'd just sleep better.

Crystal,
Of course, the thing is, it depends on how you define "safe." People canned pumpkin butter for years, and it's not like a huge percentage of the people who ate it dropped dead. (Though I recall a couple of years ago someone posting a link here to a story about a foodborne illness originating with canned pumpkin, so it isn't JUST a theoretical risk.)

The latest research that recommended not canning it at all did so becauce it was determined in the lab that pumpkin was such a variable food that it was not possible to GUARANTEE that recipe would ALWAYS come out safe. And, in this day and age, that's the level of safety many people demand. As we should --- few people HAVE to can food to survive, and most of us prefer not to take on any degree of risk for something that is a hobby. (Or at the very least, to know about any risks.)

But if it helps you sleep at night, remember that botulism is actually very rare. Lots of people can according to old standards or without following safety recommendations, and MOST of them are hale and hearty. (And, unfortunately, tend to take that fact as "proof" that there is no danger whatsoever in canning by those methods.)

Zabby

Of course it would be safe to make it and then freeze it or make it to use fresh. It is the canning of it, and using only a 10 min. BWB on top of that that is at issue. But the recipe itself - short of the part about canning it - should be fine.

As to the reviews - yes, as I said, I doubt what I wrote would be posted but "someone" will at least read it and if they get several of them saying the same thing, maybe they'll have enough sense to investigate our claims. ;)

Dave

"Of course, the thing is, it depends on how you define "safe." That gave me a grin, Zabby. Never even thought of various levels of safe! I understand that canned pumpkin butter turning 'bad' is rare, and sickness or death caused by spoiled product is also a rarity. However...

If I follow directions correctly, I do want to know that whatever I'm preparing is not going to make me or my family sick. Guaranteed. I think everyone expects the same. That is at least one reason some of us frequent this site, and probably the same for their site. There is no warning connected to instructions that says anything about a minute possibility of a small percentage of people falling ill after preparing and eating a canned Pumpkin Butter recipe, even when done correctly.

Kraft is evidentially quite confident that it is safe. I hit 'reply' to the message I received above... This is the second message I sent:

................................................
Please note that I am NOT displeased with your recipe. It looks to have wonderful flavor and I'd love to be able to make it with confidence. However as I stated, I do have some serious concerns. Not one of the national canning institutes I have found recommend home canning pureed/mashed pumpkin or squash except you, and I can not figure out why. Can you guarantee me and the general public, that it is absolutely safe to make precisely as written on your site?

Thank you so much for your time

Crystal
..............................
The reply back:

Thank you for taking the time to visit us at http://www.kraftfoods.com/ and for letting me know about your experience.

I know how disappointing it can be when a recipe doesn't turn out properly, and I'm sorry to hear that happened.

I can assure you the recipe you received is correct as written. Our Kraft Kitchens Team thoroughly tests all of our recipes before they're published to ensure their accuracy. They may even take the extra step of having other members of the company review the recipes before they issue the final seal of approval.

I hope this doesn't discourage you from trying one of the other recipes on our website, as I'm sure you'll find some great new ones that'll soon become family favorites!

It was great hearing from you, and I encourage you to browse our website to take advantage of the great online food content that's available 24 hours a day!

Kim McMiller
Associate Director, Consumer Relations
..............................

There ya go. It is safe, yes? But I still can't bring myself to make it. I'm still not understanding the whole picture. I'm not sure she was addressing MY question ...looking me in the eye, so to speak.

It is safe in a 10 minute BWB but, NCHFP doesn't have a safe recipe to recommend to use with a pressure canner? Maybe it's not odd that one side won't gamble with my health but the other doesn't even blink. On the other hand, maybe they know more about the preservative powers of sugar and the correct amount to use than other canners do? I don't know.. they won't tell me.

I've got to stop rambling on about this. It is so NOT like me ..so I give up. Frozen or canned cubed pumpkin it will be.

Crystal

>> "Of course, the thing is, it depends on how you define "safe." That gave me a grin, Zabby. Never even thought of various levels of safe!

Yet that notion really is at the heart of all the official canning recommendations. Old instructions, for example, suggest shorter processing times than modern ones for many foods, and don't say to add as much acid, etc. It's not that foods have changed much over the years --- tomato acidity, for example, has remained the same. But our standards for what is an acceptable level of risk has gone WAY down, to zero.

So modern canning instructions give us not just something guaranteed not to lead to foodborne illness if the instructions are followed, but build in a significant margin of safety. Some recommendations seem to have been changed recently in response not to any actual evidence of people --- ANY people --- falling sick but to lab tests showing that they can't 100% PROVE nobody will EVER fall sick.

>> If I follow directions correctly, I do want to know that whatever I'm preparing is not going to make me or my family sick. Guaranteed. I think everyone expects the same.

Well, I certainly agree that that's the standard a company giving out advice for the general public should use! Don't get me wrong --- I'm not advocating you go and pass out suspect pumpkin butter on the street. ;-)

But I think it's worth remembering the level of risk we're talking about, and that there ARE different degrees of safe.

I mean, how many other things in our lives do we do that that are guaranteed 100% risk-free if we follow instructions? Crossing the street? Driving to work? Flying away on a vacation? Heck, even eating ordinary food from the grocery store carries a risk.

I would guess (and I admit I am only speculating here, because it's interesting) that most people probably put themselves at greater risk by their normal food practices --- not cleaning cutting boards properly, not getting meat into the fridge soon enough, not washing lettuce thoroughly enough --- than they would if they canned pumpkin butter and ate it all winter long.

>> But That is at least one reason some of us frequent this site, and probably the same for their site.

Do remember, though, that THIS site is an open forum for discussion, not an official site where info approved by any one agency is distributed. There ARE people who preserve using methods not USDA-approved (not everyone lives in the US, after all, and even the "official" standards in other countries are not always the same).

I like to hear from *everyone* about their canning adventures. I can choose to follow whatever recommendations I want.

Bottom line, I totally agree that Kraft shouldn't be posting recipes that aren't approved by the government body designated in its country to test and approve such things. But I think it's OK --- even good --- for us to talk about them here.

Zabby

Crystal,

I'd pick up the phone and call those stupid people!!! Nothing irritates me more than a generic response to a customer service question.

It still sounds like she was blowing you off. Yes, they may have had "their" people test a recipe for a "final seal of approval", but that sure as h@ll doesn't mean that it is SAFE for consumption.

Has this woman even HEARD of the USDA's guidelines on canning?

Don't give up until you are sure they hear you and understand clearly. Heck, I went up against Martha!

gardngrl makes a good point --- even putting aside the food safety issues, this is really abysmal customer service --- two levels should have gotten you a response that was at least connected to the ACTUAL content of your query, rather than the clearly generic replies.

Zabby

OK so here's my question. In the past, we've found that freezing mashed pumpkin adversely affects the taste and texture. Obviously, I don't want to can it if there are safety issues. SO - what do I do? Canning it in chunks seems to make it too watery for pie filling. If I mix it into a pie filling first, will it freeze better? Or am I doomed to commercially canned pumpkin?

I've had very good luck freezing mashed Hubbard squash, which is akin to pumpkin. I've not noticed any change in flavor or texture and have made great pies with it (better than pumpkin to our taste).

What happens to the taste/texture that you don't like? Maybe if we know that we can make a guess as to the cause.

Also, there may be another factor. Do you have a self-defrosting freezer?

Carol

Pumpkin types can vary greatly. There is a smaller 'sugar pumpkin' that is primarily used for making commercial pumpkin pie filling. It is a bit sweeter and more dense, with less water. Most of the time I peel and cut into chunks and freeze, as I do with buttercup squash. It does exude a bit of water when thawed, but if its placed in a colander to drain that water off while thawing, it should cook up quite well. When I make pumpkin pies, I do add a litte corn starch to soak up any extra water that might be left after the pie is baked.