TC Plants

i_dig_it

17 years ago

How can you tell if a hosta is a tissue culture plant or just a small division?

Are tissue cultures less vigorous or just usually smaller?

Are they good or bad?

Just some things I've been wondering.....

Janet

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Comments (26)

putnamgardens
17 years ago
Tissue culture is good and bad....
First the bad...Often the unestablished plant fails over the MN winter, NOT always but always a disappointment that your newest edition is gone. Some sellers don't even grow on the TC before they sell'm. (I hate that) You're buying a plant that YOU get to try to winter over before it's made it through a season. Don't get me wrong. I have hundreds of TC plants in my garden that have survived. GONE are the days I spend over $20- on an immature plant. Buyer beware. Often plants do NOT come true in TC. NEVER buy a TC'd H. Gunther's Prize or Dorothy Benedict. These two plants will revert to their original form and will NOT stay true to the desired charactoristics you bought them for.(Streaky) Did you know that many of the newest introductions are mistakes of Tissue culture? True story.
H. May, sport of June is just the yellow form. The list goes on and on.

T.C. is good cuz now a plant you've been lusting for is available. Years ago, collectors had to wait for the mother plant to matured and if you knew the plant owner and you could ask him/her to sell you a division. NOW those desired hostas are in the trade.

My advice to folks who are thinking about buying TC's. Grow'm on big before you sell'm and if you're buying'm for yourself.....be glad you got'm cheap.
jspece
17 years ago
95% of the hostas you can buy today are TC propagated. When you buy a plant it is pretty safe to assume it is from TC, unless the seller says otherwise. There is no way to tell if a plant is TC or an original division (OS). Occasionally you will get a TC that just won't grow, but the same can happen with OS, too.

I don't have much trouble over wintering 1st year TCs, but like Lisa said it is more risky than a larger plant. The chance of "dud" TCs ending up in your garden would be greatly reduced if you buy from a grower who does grow on TCs before selling them.

Very few streaked plants are TCed...it just isn't very cost effective. I'm not sure buying a TCed streaker is much riskier than buying OS, though. I think it has as much to do with making sure you pick out a plant with good, even markings to begin with. If the plant is already showing a preference to stabilizing, there is little you can do to convince it to do otherwise!
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Explain some things, Please
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Comments (12)
To add onto what Bernd started... Lets start by saying...when you purchase a plant..any plant. daylily, tomato, hosta...whatever... judge the plant by its ROOTS! The root system is the foundation for the plant. A root system determines how quickly the plant will thrive, if planted and treated properly. This year I purchased tissue cultures with the root mass of of mature divisions(1 or 2 mature eyes with mature leaves, you spoke of this). You see the leaves die every year, but the root mass will remain... Its true that there is still the crown and number of eyes there to make a difference in the actual size of the leaf mound, BUT leaf/foliage size will fool you. You see... if you go to lowe's, walmart, home depot... and look at their hostas... you might think they look better than buying a division... but what they are, are tissue cultures... bought from a lab..by a nursery...grown and fertilized for a couple seasons... then shipped to the retailer.. and sold to you... they are massively commercial..full of disease and chemical fertilizer... we've all bought them...knowing better... When you fertilize... you have macro and micro nutrients... micronutrients you need not worry about much... most are already in the soil in good enough amount, that if you aren't having severe growing issues, you might not ever take a soil test and even worry about them...you can also check with your local extension office and have them direct you to an agent in your area who could tell you about micronutrients in your native soil.. Macronutrients on the other hand are Nitrogen, Phosphorus and Potassium, N, K and P... when you see ratings on fertilizer... 10-10-10 for example... each number in the same order is the percentage of each in that bag... so per lb...10-10-10 garden fertilizer is .1lb N, .1lb P and .1lb K....Or you'll see it on the back of many fertilizers in percentages... Miracle Gro for example lists theirs on the back in percentages ....which translates the same way... Plants fertilized in Nitrogen heavy fertilizers... for example... all purpose Miracle Gro... will look amazing on the surface... since Nitrogen promotes foliage growth... but if you grow it big with Nitrogen one year... then lay off the next year... It probably won't be that big... making you think that its getting smaller... but really the root mass is the same...you were just boosting the foliage the year before...Phosphorus more helps grow better root masses... and Potassium is more for budding....Which is why a balanced fertilizer is most always in order... Fertilizers with heavy amounts of phosphorus may be banned in your area due to the amount of phosphorus in the ground and ground water... personally I like 10-10-10 and an occasional dose of Miracle Gro Tomato formula which is 20-20-20... but you have to be gentle with it... So what I'm saying... you buy a fertilized tissue culture... then plant it... and don't fertilize it... next year its gonna look smaller... cause it just didn't have the root mass to begin with.. it was pumped full of Nitrogen to look pretty...you can do the same thing... but some of us have more of an appreciation for a 4 foot tall 10 foot wide naturally grown mound of SnS.... than a 4.5 foot tall 11 foot wide chemically fertilized mound of SnS... Kinda like the difference in buying something or making something yourself...I say this and I fertilize with the best of them lol.... There's nothing wrong with buying tissue cultures....but I prefer to buy mature divisions..generally from a certain couple places... they always have excellent root mass, a couple eyes and generally will produce a few more eyes the next season if planted properly... and by five seasons you have a mature hosta..with most moderate or faster growing cultivars... But this can be iffy... if you are buying from a retailer who just sends you one eye with a small root mass... thats really no better than an average tissue culture. The thing about tissue culture is that you can buy them from the labs just like the nurseries.. and get them for as cheap as 2 bucks a piece sometimes... if you buy them small enough and buy a large enough tray. The ones I purchased this season were 3 for 15 bucks.. and like I said... they had the root mass of some of the divisions I bought this year. When this was stated "The early tissue culture batches of T-Rex produced many plants that are very slow growers. Originator stock or a piece from a mature plant will grow at a good rate, but most of the tc plants will take a long time to mature." This is way... seriously deep in the hobby knowledge... I know a lot about growing plants.. but I am far out of the circle of the hosta socity and convention scene to provide any inside knowledge like that... Originator stock is refering to the original plants that were grown, from division only, and registered as the cultivar.... When a new variety is discovered... it has to be grown for awhile.... divided.. and grown... and tested and timed and watched and watched... then if it fits the bill.. it will get registered as a cultivar... cultivated variety...Then at this point it becomes supremely valuable to many.. because its tissue cultures are so valuable many times... labs pay big money to the founder of this new variety for rights to TC... then many are so interested, they watch the growth habits of the tissue cultures to see if they line up with the original cultivar... Unfortunately in this business.. many plants are being sold out there that do not have all the original registered characteristics of a cultivar... this is due sometimes to a loss of them through tissue culture... and sometimes plants aren't properly labeled in nurseries... and everything else you can imagine.... we are humans and things are broadly commercial... so the integrity of the cultivar is always lost somewhat... theres several different looks to June for example... But since tissue culture spreads out the cultivar around the world quicker than division... I'd say most of the divisions you buy are from TCs grown to maturity.. so like I said.. your a bit away from the originator stock... Plants that are trademarked, I think, technically aren't supposed to be propagated for the purpose of profit without the trademark holders consent... Give your plants time to start making mature leaves... I know you've talked about pots, and you live in texas, I cannot comment because I just put mine in the ground and live in Kentucky.... But I think it would do you better in the long run to have yours in the ground... if you want to get serious... start planning out some shade strategies like planting trees and shrubs or purchasing shade cloth and building a patio area or something covered in shade cloth just to put some hostas in the ground...I really think the roots are happier in the ground... Bernd mentioned buying hostas in pots with several eyes already... I think you are like me... Hostas just aren't popular popular, in Texas or Kentucky... there's no hosta scene here... We have lots of daylily fanatics here.. several daylily conventions and festivals...there's like 20 daylily farms and growers, cultivators or whatnot with 50 miles... theres just not a hosta scene... we've got one farm in the state and its like 2.5 hours away! So your stuck like me... ordering mature divisions... check out Naylor Creek Nursery online and Hallson's Gardens online... I had great experiences with them this year! And now to finally talk about the color change...lets do some definitions.... albescent having leaves that become whiter as the season progresses; i.e., H. �Gold Standard�. lutescent having leaves that begin the season darker and become lighter or more yellow as the season progresses; not the result of bleaching due to poor nutrition or too much sun. viridescent having leaves which begin the season lighter colored and become more green as the season advances. These are the terms to describe the color change in hosta foliage... you'll see the whole hosta look one way in the spring... then by summer you'll have the first flush of leaves already changed.... and you'll see the new growth coming out of the ground looking like the first flush of growth did in the spring. For example the margins on fortunei albomarginata emerge gold... then by summer they are all white... undulata albomarginata on the other hand has margins that emerge white and stay white all season... Leaf size or maturity is kindly relevant to this.. since the leaves are small when they emerge... and with time they get bigger and obtain their color change. But some of the color change will be due to the amount of light they are getting... June for example will stay closer to white centered all year if kept in deep shade... but if put in the light a bit more it will soon go the green/yellow route.... You'll have to get the inside information on Paul Aden from one of our more savvy hosta fanatics... I'm sure you could google his name and get a bio if you wanted... Hope this makes sense and wasn't too boring... I was bored and got carried away! John Check out HostaDirect.com for a great great database of hostas...I don't buy from there but I really like their database! Just for giggles... here are some more useful links http://www.hostalibrary.org/ http://www.perennialnursery.com/ http://www.naylorcreek.com/
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ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
17 years ago
put it out of your head .... its nothing to bother with ...

back 15 years ago ... hosta were easily 50 to 150 dollars for newer stuff .... now its what.. 35 bucks tops [leaving aside plants that are state of the art or so new...etc ..]

the process has broken the market and made it affordable for millions of plain ole folk ..

now you can buy TC lines ... 45 days old for 2.5 each .. pot them and sell then for 10 .... immediately ... you will lose a lot ... a lot will be untrue to name ... etc ...

or you can buy from the guy who has 'grown them on' for two years ... has weeded out the no names .. and he has taken the hit on the weaklings that died ... and pay him 20 bucks ...

if you want them the first year.. pay 50 ... if you can wait 3 years.. pay 15 ...

its all about caveat emptor ... and what you are willing to pay and what risk you are willing to assume ...

frankly ... baby TC .. leave them to the pro's like josh .... pay a decent price.. support the sellers who support the society/journal ... and forget about being ripped off at ebay ....

ken
ademink
17 years ago
Well, i got a bunch of shady oaks TC plants thru a co-op this year so hope I don't get totally hosed. :)
esther_opal
17 years ago
TC is actually more vigorous because they are clean; the TC process gets rid of disease problems. I would pot new plants the first year anyway, over wintering potted plants easy if you follow the instructions you can find searching here.

Feeling like you might get hosed????????? They were cheap what can you lose?
woodthrush
17 years ago
I put all the TC's we purchased in last year's co-op directly into the soil here. I'm zone four and I'm seeing eyes on everything I planted. We purchased from Shady Oaks and QandZ and both had fantastic root systems.
Pam
ademink
17 years ago
I didn't mean financially hosed...I meant I hope they don't die. Bad choice of words.
hostarox
17 years ago
Janet, everything you buy is tc, unless you buy it with an agreement that it is os.
What matters...as has been pointed out..is how long it has grown on..in the hands of the wholesaler, or vendor, before selling it again!
Don't buy baby plants

Rox
diggindutchman
17 years ago
If you buy on Ebay just read the description of the tc hosta. It says 1st year tc liner, so you know what you are getting. Those buying on Ebay most of the time want to get the newest and the cheapest plant available and it's their responsibility to care for it and protect it when overwintering. Like Woodrush said and I agree, the over wintered tc's from those top two growers are most likely the ones to survive because of the time the growers took to develop those liners,plugs or whatever else you want to call them. I've recieved some plants from other suppliers and yes they are hardly something that you would want to recieve to grow on. I have many 1st year tc's from last year over wintered in a shed, a few potted in the ground and they are showing their eyes already. I've joined the co-op group too this year to get fewer quantity in varieties than the 12 pak that the growers require. I've got an order with Josh and others that I add to my inventory of tc'd plants. I'd say that aside from newer varieties coming from the culling process at the nurseries the next best thing is the relief that the tc'd plant is safe from the virus that has everyone scarred to death about getting and contaminating their garden. I had a virused plant several years ago that was passed on from the Dutch imported and it wasn't a tc'd plant, so it's important to know who and where your plants are coming from.
John at the shore waiting for my Q&Z and Walter's order today!!
playinmud
17 years ago
Hmmmm, well if its true that you can throw them on the driveway and they'll survive, then my thought is that they must be pretty hardy even if they are tcs. Most of you know I only started collecting hostas in the summer of '05...most of my hostas were 1st year tcs (100 tcs that summer), I didn't know the difference, the price was right. Out of the 100, I only lost 'Hope'. I may be hopeless, but I do have patience...they look better every year, we're growing up together.

Donna

PS: John it was so good to meet you in person at the hosta meeting last Saturday!
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
17 years ago
no PIM .. i can throw you on the driveway .. and you will live .. your are hardy like a hosta...

i can not throw a fetus on the driveway and hope it will live ... SOME TC ARE TOTALLY IMMATURE AND LIKELY TO DIE ... i would suggest that everyone who says they grow them .. has lost a lot of them during the learning curve ...

as for ebay ./.. let me step back and say there are good sellers there ... and there are crooks there ... as a general suggestion for newbies .. pay a little extra.. buy them bigger.. learn how to care for mail order hosta ...

then as the learning curve increases ... start shopping for the bargain .... knowing more.. will allow you to increase your risk .. while cutting the odds....

good luck.... ken
ademink
17 years ago
Well, I will baby them and hope for the best. They were inexpensive, which is what I needed (hey, I work w/ the homeless, for Pete's sake!!! LOL).

They are from Shady Oaks and Q&Z so I think my odds are good. I didn't order any Ebay TCs from yomamasgothostas666 or anything. LOL
esther_opal
17 years ago
"I didn't mean financially hosed...I meant I hope they don't die. Bad choice of words."

I'm just messing with ya!
playinmud
17 years ago
Sigh, if you throw me on the driveway Ken, I hope you'll do it gently. LOL! Thanks for the analogy, helps me to understand the frailty of the tc. I was mistaken, I thought they were akin to seedlings. Boy I wish I had known about this forum before I started buying plants. I had no idea.

Donna
ademink
17 years ago
"I'm just messing with ya!"

WE ARE TALKING HOSTAS HERE...THIS IS SERIOUS!

roflol ;D

Ok, so how long are these "fetus" frail? If they make it a year, am I out of the woods?
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
17 years ago
they are just like seedlings ...

i think i will start a new post: TC FOR IDIOTS ... maybe under a better name.. lol ... i hope to remember to do it tomorrow or later.. the 5 yo has the fever the 8yo just got over.. lucky me ... or them.. depending who it is really all about ....

i will give you all you need to know about the process ... and not a speck more ...

ken
ademink
17 years ago
i'll be waiting with baited breath.

love,
idiot

lol
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
17 years ago
have a mint ....

Here is a link that might be useful: its here
hostarox
17 years ago
I know that the tc process is sterile, BUT if the plant being put into tc has HVX, the babies will too. HVX is not eliminated during tc. So, since some cultivars sometimes don't show symptoms for years, you can still get a viroused plant from tc
esther_opal
17 years ago
"Thanks for the analogy, helps me to understand the frailty of the tc. I was mistaken, I thought they were akin to seedlings."

They are not frail just small and they come from a different growing condition than the ground where you find a seedling. If you start the seedling inside you don't plant it outside when the first leaf appears.
They are small so differences in temperature and moisture have more effect because they are closer to the surface. A pest that would take a bite out of a big plant eats the whole small plant.
ademink
17 years ago
Sorry, mistakenly thought I was still on the pond forum. *snackin' on Tic Tacs*
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
17 years ago
i wonder what the derivation of 'baited breath' is???? ... but i digress .... ken
playinmud
17 years ago
Idiot #2 here...thanks a bunch for the tutorial. I have a greater respect for their frailty (since they are not robust in nature) and will continue to coddle them.

BTW, it is "bated breath", which I seem to recall is akin to holding one's breath.
ademink
17 years ago
baited...bated...details, details. lol I think "baited breath" would be if you smell like you've been gnawing on a fish carcass. At that point, folks would WISH you were waiting with BATED breath..."don't exhale!!!!"
playinmud
17 years ago
LOL! Andrea you're a hoot! Hmmm, this gives me yet another reason to avoid sushi. LOL! I'll ponder on this for awhile...LOL!
ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
17 years ago
go figure ... hit the link .. ken

Here is a link that might be useful: link

TC Plants

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