seysonn, I had no intention of making harsh accusations and characterizations. But the tone of some of these responses sounds sometimes seems to get too personal. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, I guess that when it comes to the possibility of a serious risk, one can have a discussion without so much emotion. This is not directed at anyone, just a reflection of the overall thread. I'm new to canning so let's just say, I've learned a great deal.

Annie makes excellent points. Being first well informed on all aspects of an issue and only then choosing to modify or quantify them is one thing.

But when not well informed on the issues first and still arbitrarily choosing to ignore or argue against them based strictly on personal, only anecdotal information is very risky.

Advocating that others who are equally uninformed, adopt the same risky behavior helps no one.

Dave

Dave, you and I agree to disagree on some things, but we absolutely agree on this one. Educate yourself, then make informed decisions before you take action. Then, just because the level of risk is acceptable to me doesn't mean it's acceptable to others. Each person makes their own, hopefully educated and informed, choices.

My father did not like his dill pickles water bath canned, only open kettle canned. I explained the risks. He didn't care. He was in his 70s at that point and welcome to make his own informed decisions. He wanted them "his way" and so I made them for him that way, but I didn't give them to other people without making certain they knew that the method was not one approved by the experts. Then they could decide themselves.

Annie

Annie wrote:
"Dave, you and I agree to disagree on some things, but we absolutely agree on this one. Educate yourself, then make informed decisions before you take action. Then, just because the level of risk is acceptable to me doesn't mean it's acceptable to others. Each person makes their own, hopefully educated and informed, choices.
%%%%%%%%%%%

That has been exactly my view.The buck stops with the individual.

....Guidelines are just that "Guidelines" not rules. But some people around here defend them as God spoken rules. An If somebody challenges those guidelines they call his view "anecdotal" among other things
Annie wrote:
---"Each person makes their own, hopefully educated and informed, choices. "

You nailed it. That has been my positions all along.I don't understand why those people get personal and exited and play defense team role. After all this is just a "Forum" not a classroom. People can always go to USDA, NCHFP, and all the university extension centers. If someone believes in Authoritarianism, let them do so.

Now back to the topic:
If you can jar/can in quarts, you can do it in half gallon.IFF you have the resources to accommodate that. It has not been tested, as mentioned before, probably because they think that not too many people do it anyway, NOT because it cannot be done or would be unsafe. I am not advocating that you should jar/can in half gallons. The point is that it can be done.

Since there are no calculated processing times for 1/2 gallons how long do you process them for? Double the time for quarts? Pickles for 20 min would make awfully soft pickles. 1 1/2 hours for crushed tomatoes?

Add 5 min to the quart time? Add 10 min? 15 min? How do you know the time you guess to add is sufficient to create a full vacuum? Long enough to cover the added density in the jars? Long enough to prevent cold pockets in the food?

Dave

going back ( a long way) to the idea that you can pressure cook foods and then pour them into sterilized jars -that might work, if you did it in a laminar flow hood. stuff floats ! in the air.... off your clothes...(and when you flush).

I find the best use for half gallon jars are pickles. Wash cucumbers, pack into jars with 6 or more cloves of garlic and 2 tsp. of pickling spice. Add to jar a small handful of fresh dill. Mix 1/3 cup pickling or kosher salt, 1 cup white vinegar and 6 cups cold water. Add mixture to cucumbers, fill jars leaving 1/2 inch head space. Refrigerate for 7 days. Enjoy they are the best. no muss no fuss large or small quantities and no pulling out the canner.

"1 cup white vinegar and 6 cups cold water"

Wow! That is a low ratio of vinegar to water. Even for a refrigerator pickle. 1:1 ratio of vinegar to water is the minimum recommended when using an untested recipe.

I could see it if you were going to ferment them first for safety but if they were fermented first then they wouldn't need all that vinegar. What's the source of this recipe or is this one of those old family-type recipes that maybe should be modified or put away?

Dave

Just came across this thread, I use 1/2 gallon jars for my dill pickles only, Since I ran out of jars I found some empty Vlasic Farm jars in my basement, They are 80oz jars which would work a lot better for pickles, But I can't seem to find any resealable lids for them, Could I take a chance on using the original lid hoping it would seal?

It's your choice Jimmy, something done at your own risk. Just as the guidelines don't approve using the 1/2 gallon jars (much less the bigger) they don't approve of reusing the original lids either. The odds of getting a good vacuum seal that will hold during shelf storage are slim.

Dave

I'd also have a problem taking a chance on those original lids. If it fails, you've lost a LOT of your product.

Annie

I have a question...

I know little to nothing about canning, but I have been thinking about starting. Before I begin, to me, understanding the process is important.

It's been nearly 3 years from when this discussion started. Has the NCHFP, USDA, or any other authoritative group done the testing and issued guidelines for the 1/2 gallon jars?

And, for those who are defensive of those groups, and canning safety in general, does it bother you that there may still not have been testing done?

A few people seemed to become upset at people who don't listen to safety precautions, but are those same people frustrated that there are no tests done?

In the 3 years hence, are they still re-testing the already established recipes? Did they close shop and stop work? If they are still in operation, then why haven't they done the research? Just because few people can in 1/2 gallon jars is a ridiculous reason. It's a chicken or an egg argument. Just from this thread it's obvious that the reason some people don't use the jars is because there are no safety protocols (I'm not saying that it's the only reason, just that it's plain it's A reason.)

If the testing was done, there is no doubt that more people may choose to use the jars. I'm not arguing for or against, but I am wondering why there has been 3 more years of funding... lots of established science on the smaller jars... people who do choose to use the larger jars at their own risk... and yet it seems there is no further research?

Why get upset at people who 'defy authority', but not upset (or at least frustrated) that your tax dollars are not spent to help those who still use the jars? I'm sure that money is spent to help every situation where someone may not be using a seatbelt... 30# turkeys though?... nutcases!

If the research has been done, then just file this under... 'nevermind.'

Thanks.

Frustrated that the research hasn't been done? Oh yeah, definitely. However the reason it hasn't been done is lack of funding. USDA cut off the all funding for NCHFP and the state and univeristy extension services it served 4 years ago during that latest heavy budget crunch. As a result all the ongoing research at NCHFP stopped and what we are left with is the research and resulting recommendations done up until that time.

The only new research we can get now is that done by individual scientists or individual university extensions who fund their own research. For the 1/2 gallon jars that recommendation was they are approved for use only with highly acidic fruits, acidified fruits and juices, vinegar-based pickling, and for fermenting. And they must be processed in a BWB for the required time for those foods.

But in addition to the USDA/NCHFP recommendation there are the problems of (1) a container of size sufficient to BWB process them in, and (2) the lack of availability of the jars and lids from the manufacturers as they don't make them anymore and haven't for several years. #2 makes it a moot discussion in many respects. So what limited funding and grants are available is spent on more relevant issues like the high demand for tested salsa recipes and steam processing for acidic foods.

Hope that helps.

Dave

Ball does still make and sell half gallon jars. I can get 6-packs for somewhere between $10 and $13 around here at several places. Even at Wal-Mart. K-Mart and Target sell singles for around $3 each. Ace Hardware sells them for $13 for 6 right now and will deliver free to a local store for pick-up if they don't have them in stock at the store. One of our regional grocery stores stocks them. I haven't looked at all of the grocery stores for them. I've even seen them at Tractor Supply.

Thank you Dave, it does help.

It's disappointing that research money has been cut off, there are a lot more 'boondoggles' out there than canning research. I guess though that it's good they are still funding the part that maintains the website and can answer questions.

I suppose some staff responsible for deciding who gets what funding said to themselves... "canning? Who does that anymore? There's plenty of food available in my grocery stores, let's cut that!"

Good to know thatcompostguy...

I bottle wine, but have never taken the opportunity to can 'just' juice or the other 'approved for 1/2 gallon' substances. Those large jars do make good storage vessels, and I would like to try some of the things that Dave mentioned.

I do have a 1 gallon 'flip seal' jar (not sure what the real name is,) and a few smaller sizes that I used last year for refrigerator pickles. I got them on sale at Hobby Lobby, but they are more expensive than what you quoted.

<Ball does still make and sell half gallon jars. I can get 6-packs for
somewhere between $10 and $13 around here at several places.>

You are right and I should have qualified what I said above as Ball has previously said it was only old stock. But according to Jarden (the parent company) they have resumed making them in limited numbers as "they are increasingly popular for dry storage". But please do note that even they stress they are "for preserving apple and grape juices".

<It's disappointing that research money has been cut off,>

Yes it is and we can only hope it will eventually be restored. Meanwhile, even in the world of canning, the issue of 1/2 gallon jars isn't a high priority one for most.

Dave

Things change all the time maybe that's why we should have testing, But it's all about the money and were the politicians want the money to go too, I say if you have been doing it for years with no problem then why change, Ball 1/2 gallon jars are easily available here in my area at $9.99 to $11.99 for a case of six, I just bought a case for $10.29. Dave, I don't see anywhere on the box where it says they stress they are "for preserving apple and grape juices or is that on their web site?

On the website in the description for the jars.

But you know no one is actually saying you "can't use them". Just that it is recommended that their use be limited to highly acidic fruits and juices. If someone really wanted to pressure can 2 gallons of beef or 2 gallons of stewed tomatoes with peppers and onions or 2 gallons of chili and they had a pressure canner deep enough to do it, it isn't like they were going to get arrested or something. It is their risk to take.

My question would be why on earth they would want to do it in the first place and how long do they guess they would have to process such a large container? Like the OP who wants to use them for canning chili tomatoes, he/she is just guessing at the processing time and counting on luck to cover it. Their choice but not a risk I'd be willing to take.

I'm glad some of you find them easily but that isn't the case for many of us who would love to have them for dry storage. Ordering them from the website and paying the shipping isn't worth it for me.

Dave

On the website in the description for the jars.

But you know no one is actually saying you "can't use them". Just that it is recommended that their use be limited to highly acidic fruits and juices. If someone really wanted to pressure can 1/2 gallons of beef or 1/2 gallons of stewed tomatoes with peppers and onions or 1/2 gallons of chili and they had a pressure canner deep enough to do it, it isn't like they were going to get arrested or something. It is their risk to take.

My question would be why on earth they would want to do it in the first place and how long do they guess they would have to process such a large container? Like the OP who wants to use them for canning chili tomatoes, he/she is just guessing at the processing time and counting on luck to cover it. Their choice but not a risk I'd be willing to take.

I'm glad some of you find them easily but that isn't the case for many of us who would love to have them for dry storage. Ordering them from the website and paying the shipping isn't worth it for me.

Dave

Dave, is there no Ace Hardware near you? Last year I ordered three cases of half gallons from Ace, no charge for delivery to the store. I think I paid $11 per case of six. When I went to pick them up, I found that there were plenty out on the shelves anyway. I had not known because I had never been a customer. I've been in to Ace this year and they have them again (or still).

I see them at Target singly, but Target charges something like $6 each.

I used mine for fermenting vessels.

rgreen48(7a), yes of course we'd like to see continuing research on food preservation, canning and otherwise!

Not to bring up old posts but I just noticed a comment back in 10/2014 where a person made the comment about ( It's the same reason you don't see pickles or spaghetti sauce or other things in half gallon containers at most grocery stores), Not sure where the person is located but here in PA we have pickles in 1/2 gallon jars in stores, They used to be in 80oz jars, Would be awful hard to fit whole dill pickles in quart jars, Defiantly wouldn't fit many in, After looking on Amazons site at pressure canners I noticed that the All American brand (21-1/2 quart) holds four 1/2 gallon jars, Reading the reviews their is people canning with them but I'm not saying it is right or wrong, Like previous comments it is your choice.

<Dave, is there no Ace Hardware near you? Last year I ordered three cases of half gallons from Ace, no charge for delivery to the store.>

Nearest ACE is is a 70 mile trip - real boonies here. Have looked on the shelves with no luck but yeah they likely would order them for me. I'd just have to time necessary trips to get them to save gas. But like Jimmy I have several giant Vlasic banana pepper and pickle jars I use for dry storage and fermenting.

We have made our own "V8" for over 20 years and pressure cooked half-gallon jars many times. Our recipe calls for tomatoes, green peppers, celery, beets, and onions. We cut up the veggies or shred them and cook them until soft, and let them cool down in the frig. We put the raw tomatoes through our juicer (KitchenAid or OMRA) and juice the cooled veggies the same way and mix the juices together and boil them for about a half hour before jarring them. We put two teaspoons of canning salt in each clean, hot half-gallon jar, fill with hot juice and apply the ring and lid as per instructions. After that, the jars (our pressure cookers - the big Mirro ones - hold 4 half-gallon jars) go into the pressure cooker into which we have added the recommended amount of hot water. We then close the pressure cooker, crank up the heat, and purge the air/steam for 10 minutes after we can hear/see the steam coming out the vent and the water boiling. Then we put the weight on the cooker, bring the pressure up to 15 pounds, and hold it there for 45 minutes. After that, we turn off the heat, wait for the pressure to go down to zero as measured by the vents going down, and take the jars out to cool on the counter top which is covered by two layers of bath towel. Haven't had any problems. Hope this helps. Kim, RN

So with no acidification added and a made up processing time that is a do-at-you-own-risk recipe. That processing time @ 15 lbs. is more than double the quart processing time called for in the approved recipe, so is likely safe but untested. However the pH may very well not be safe.

Dave

Well, it has been tested every year for 20 years, though.

Yeah that's commonly referred to as the "no-one-has-died-yet (that we know of)" test. It is somewhat lacking in scientific methodology.

And that method of "testing" is especially risky with a product that is consumed right out of the jar without any further cooking to destroy any toxins that might have developed in the jar.

A simple way of reducing some of the risk would be to follow the acidification directions with the juice as called for with all tomato products. It still wouldn't be an approved/tested recipe but it would be safer. Or you could just use the approved recipe for Vegetable Blend Juice.

http://nchfp.uga.edu/how/can_03/tomato_veg_juice.html

Dave

Botulism isn't your garden variety of food poisoning where you puke and get the trots. I do genealogical research and that involves mortality schedules. "Summer Complaint" (likely salmonella) and "progressive paralyses" (likely botulism or tetanus) were common euphemisms for food poisoning in the late 1800s and early 1900s. It wasn't a rare diagnosis as cause of death. It was a COMMON one. My great uncle died of creeping paralysis around 1920. Tetanus or Lock Jaw was recognized widely back then and diagnosed properly, so I can almost guarantee that he was a victim of botulism. What I'm getting at, is don't put too much faith in the safety of those directions for time tested home preserved goods passed down by tradition or word of mouth. They may have been safe for the most part, but there were margins of error some people fell into and they weren't always picked up on death records as canning accidents.

Adding lemon juice or citric acid is a good idea, but not necessary for our canning technique. The research and analytical, as well as anecdotal results are out there and hundreds, if not thousands of home canners and even lab students have collected and submitted samples of their product to accredited labs for analysis. I have not, but one of my colleagues has sampled many of his canned foods - especially "V8" - in half gallon jars for a number of parameters. NO Botulism spores or toxin. The problem we face is that no one has published their work.

Then until they do we need to stick with all the research and testing that has been done and has been published that shows acidification IS necessary. The use of the 1/2 gallon jars and estimating a processing time is a personal choice. The need for acidification is well documented as NOT a personal choice.

Dave

I wanted to know how long after your

canner attains a rolling boil does it ordinarily take to achieve a seal on a half gallon jar of tomatoes. I should add canning 1 or 2 jars at a time.

Thank you.

D. Vaughn- Well for one there are no approved methods of canning tomatoes in half gallon jars so any time given will be a guess. And two, the amount of time it would take would depend on what type of tomato product you are canning. Which means that again any time given would just be a guess.

Rodney

Agree. The point of BWB process is not to "achieve a seal". The purpose is to force all the air out of the jar and its contents and so create a vacuum within the jar. Very different things.

You could probably get the lid to seal on a jar in just a few minutes but that doesn't mean it would be safe for shelf storage. There would still be lots of air left in the jar and the seal wouldn't last long at all. The actual time needed to create a full vacuum in a half gallon jar of tomatoes is unknown.

Dave

The process for home canning is not dissimilar to commercial canning. You can go down to the grocery store and buy a one gallon can of green beans, spaghetti sauce, whole kernel corn, ect. Other than being canned in an actual can, what is the difference between canning something in a 1/2 gallon jar and them canning something in a gallon can. Despite lack of research, somebody knows how to do it, otherwise we couldn't get the gallon cans.

"Other than being canned in an actual can, what is the difference between canning something in a 1/2 gallon jar and them canning something in a gallon can."

This is a common question Mike and often discussed here. There is no "lack of research" on this particular issue.

And the answer is relatively simple, irradiation of the foods prior to processing and the use of high pressure autoclaves. There are other factors of course like the lack of human contact with the foods and chemical washes but those are the 2 high impact ones.

Discovery Science channel has a series on the commercial food canning process of various foods that shows it step-by-step. I'm sure you can find info on it if interested in more details.

Dave

I'm not going to try anything that hasn't already been tested by the NCHFP. But there is another reason also, to me canning is fun but hard work . If I can 8 pints and a jar cracks or slips or otherwise meets an untimely demise, I'm not going to feel terrible. But an entire gallon of food wasted is quite a waste at my house, so even if I knew it was safe I wouldn't do it. Bigger is not always better.

You can go down to the grocery store and buy a one gallon can of green
beans, spaghetti sauce, whole kernel corn, ect. Other than being canned
in an actual can, what is the difference between canning something in a
1/2 gallon jar and them canning something in a gallon can

It's like the difference between you zipping around a go-cart track and Mario Andretti at the Indianapolis Speedway.

• A whole laboratory doing tests on each batch for quality?
• Commercial model pressure cookers?
• Sending cans through the process with recording devices to check pressure and temp in the food?

"It's like the difference between you zipping around a go-cart track and Mario Andretti at the Indianapolis Speedway."

Excellent simile!

Dave

Hi I just canned 3, 1/2 gallon jars of grape juice and was researching the web to find the recommended processing time for 1/2 gallon jars and found this thread. wow Some of you people are so smarties-pants! And I just love the 'color words' to make your nonscientific points. Ha , Oh and the scare tactics are soo o intellectual. And not scary.

First of all if you are new to canning please use the official recommended blue book home extension charts, methods, and recipes.

Next no need to badmouth honest questions, there are people who have been canning a long time, and are not playing games of chance with their families but using common sense and experience which is a lot more safe than some of the so called scientific research!

Science is not the only way to explore your world safely, correctly or smartly. There are other methods of obtaining information equally valid and many times more valid than the scientific method.

Finally thank you to those who offered your experience, advice and personal recipes. It is all interesting middle of the night reading entertainment while I timed my processing grape juice.

Every one of us are connected by our desire to preserve our own food.

May the food be with you

Lumin8

You are not too sleep deprived to be canning, are you, Luminate?

I have canning directions from a number of universities, Ball, Kerr, Presto, etc., dating back for over 20 years to the present. There have been many changes to the recommendations given by the various sources over the years. Example: pressure canning tomato juice in "Presto Cooker Canner, Directions and Recipes, 1978" lists no requirement for adding lemon juice or other acidification, and a recommended processing time for both pints and quarts is given as 15 lbs - 0 minutes. We've used that recipe over the years with no problems, but have since changed to other processing methods (processing time, acidification, pounds of pressure). It was only until a few years ago that we could find an "approved" method for preparing and canning vegetable tomato juice (V8?), but we've been canning quarts and 1/2 gallon jars of our own "V8", using our own directions which I've published here a number of years ago, for over 30 years! Jeez, did I get the nasty comments after posting that. And, the person that posted that the large canneries monitor the temperatures of each container in a batch, and conduct lab tests on products from each batch has certainly observed canneries other than the 10 or so I've visited.

Getting back to recipes for half gallon jar recipes, I know it would be no big deal for a University that routinely conducts food safety testing and publishes "safe" recipes to conduct tests and provide recommendations for canning at least a limited number of recipes they standardize as to type and amount of each ingredient, etc. Heck, I can't believe that a great number of grad students haven't wanted to do just that!

can I can meat in Half gallons I have 100 of them

You may do anything you like, of course, but there are no tested methods for canning meat in jars that size, so no guidelines regarding time. Because meat is subject to botulism and various other issues, it would not be something I'd be comfortable with, or even guessing at a time for that.

I'd can it in quarts or freeze it. Good luck!

Annie

We've never tested canning meat in 1/2 gallon jars. I would suggest calling canning factories that DO can meat in large containers and ask for a meeting and site visit with a person in charge of this operation.

I would like to withdraw my question above to the poster lumin8 because lumin8 modified their post, removing the mention of having been up late night canning. At any rate, I'd encourage others not to can foods when overly tired as tiredness might lead to mistakes.

Kim Conant, thank you for your insight and continued giving of your experience. i appreciate it. i know there are others out there that do this as well. i just need to find them.

They say with the large volume the inner jar doesnt get enough heat to guarranty safe food.

I am by no way a master canner, but I was raised canning various items. I do 1/2 gallon stew, 3 per American canner, with water 1/2" the neck of the jars. I cook at 1 for 1 hour 3 mins, turn off stove, let set for 5 mins, then move off burner and let set until the pressure is zero. Then I pull off the weight and let set fir 5 mins. Then remove cooker lid and let set for 1 mins. Then remove place on towels and cover for 3 hours. Stew comes out perfect, and no one has ever gotten sick in over thirty years. Ane the meat is eighty % cooked prior to canning.

Don't invite me to dinner. Or, if you do, at least be transparent and tell me how its been canned so I can fill up on bread and salad.