I pretty much share the same definition.

Although when speaking to others about herbs, I usually preface "herb" with the category I'm speaking about like "medicinal", "culinary", etc. I do this for clarity and to keep those that may be thinking "culinary herb" when I'm speaking "medicinal herb" from making any dangerous choices. Yeah, I agree - it is dangerous to consume or take something without knowing about it but there are too reports each year of someone eating some plant or fungus or taking some herbal preparation incorrectly and doing themselves harm because of their ignorance or plain stupidity.

I'm hoping it's also a subtle way to teach to some respect for the medicine plants. They are powerful allies used knowingly and dreadful when not. People are usually careful about the "medicine" their western-style doctor gives them. By using the term "medicinal" with herbs, I'm hoping to extend that respect, care, and thought in their use to medicine plants. Too often people think "it's an herb, it's natural, it's safe." Well, hemlock and monkshood are natural and herbs too.

FataMorgana

I've said many times on this forum and elsewhere that it's very difficult sometimes to differentiate between a 'culinary herb' and a 'medicinal herb'.

For instance, the other day I had a discussion with a lady about Barley. She told me she takes it for medicinal purposes as a supplement, and she agreed that it's a food (therefore it has culinary purposes), but she refused steadfastly to call it 'a herb', as I believe it is. She wasn't able to say just what she thought it was, BTW! And she didn't actually say that she takes it for medicinal purposes - just 'for general health and well-being'. If that isn't medicinal, I don't know what is.

How do you deal with this sort of thinking? How do you explain to some people that a tomato or a banana are herbs just as much as basil or ginger? (And let's not get into the 'herb versus spice' debate, huh?)

In my mind, it doesn't make much sense to disagree with the semantics of a botanical term. One tend to lose sight of the USE of the plant in arguments over terminology. What's most important is that you AND your audience (whoever that might be) are in agreement about what the words mean. In many instances, everyone is correct.

Botanical vocabulary can be difficult to pin down. Uses of words vary greatly from country to country, for example. The word 'herb', for example, is not used as a term that can be exchanged for 'plant' in the US.

Botanically speaking (and horticulturally speaking) the term 'herb' refers to any plant NOT having a permanent woody stem. 'Forb' is the term for an herb (herbaceous plant) with broad leaves (not a grass).

When I'm wearing my lecturer hat, I can make careful distinctions between 'herbaceous plants', 'herbaceous perennials or annuals'. Everyone knows that I am not talking about woody plants.

To use another example, I've listened to people leap up to correct someone who referred to a tomato as a 'vegetable'. Isn't it silly to have an argument over 'fruit', 'vegetable', etc.? (It's a berry, but who honestly cares?)

Terminology is important, though.

At one time, I thought herbs were only little plants, but now I also include things like elderberry and walnut trees.

I usually don't think of basic foods as being herbs except in the general broad sense of "all green plants," but I can see how that would be useful. Some foods do have effects beyond nutritional ones...and it also depends on what is meant by "nutritional".

Is it possible some of our illnesses are caused by not eating a great enough variety of herbs?

:o/

Maybe the herbs we think of as medicinal actually should be ingested in small quantities on a regular basis?

Just an interesting thought....

In any case, it is true that the categories we put things into tends to determine how we think of them, and just calling foods "foods" tends to make us take foods for granted and look no further.

Actually, many foods, at least at some stages, can be poisonous. Potatoes are a well known example, but many other food plants, such as radishes and some members of the squash family, will create bitter principles in response to insect attack which are somewhat poisonous. Research would easily add to this list. The so-called allergies some have to certain foods could really be a legitimate reaction to threatening compounds in the foods, to which those individuals are particularly sensitive....

My understanding and impression that I have gotten over many years, is that herb is something (fresh, dried, grond) that comes from vegetables that have volatile oils reponsible for their taste an aroma. Then there are spices, which can come from other non-herb sources, such as peppers, horseradish, ginger, cloves, turmeric etc. So to me walnut tree/fruit is not an herb, nor is garlic and onion but their greens are. We have a lot of medicinal and colinary plants that I do not think of them as herb. To me herb is directly edible that has strong flavor and aroma in fresh form.
I wonder where the root/origing of "herb" comes from.

Cultured weeds, with characteristics suitable for consumption. These include many hundreds of thousands of plant types, and are mosttly harvested by the leaves that give off fragrences and flavors that are unique. Spices are usually seeds or tiny fruits like in the case of coriander.

Suggest that you do a sinmple web search for the words 'herb origins'. It should give you many hundreds of thousands of hits.

I think most people think of "herb" either as a plant that when added to food makes the food taste different, or, as a medicinal plant. And, I guess that's the way I think of "Herbs".

I know that many plants have herbal uses that we don't normally think of as herbs, like Roses. Still, just because you can eat it or make a salve from it should that automatically make it an herb? I don't consider Barley an herb, but rather a grain that we eat quite a bit of.

Food....culinary....medicinal...

Yeah....it is hard to draw lines. I generally use few "herbs" medicinally only. I tend to use foodstuffs as my medicine quite frequently. Onions and garlic ladened dishes when I'm sick. Steamy teas and soups for sore throats and stuffy noses. Orange juice or other anti-oxidant rich items to maintain health and immunity. Fed little ones prunes when the bowels weren't moving well enough. And so on. You know, the old Hippocrates adage, "let food by thy medicine and medicine by thy food."

I dislike capsules, pills and tinctures. They don't seem right. I have to agree with the Native American herbalists I've seen speak who question how good these can be for you. They think them unnatural. One even likened pills to poison. They too use teas and foods where they can for health - it wasn't just Hippocrates who had this thought.

Ayurvedic Medicine has different body types and different foods that help/hinder your health based upon that type. So to maintain the balance of my Kapha dosha I should avoid wheat and go for the leafy greens, eat prunes not plums, etc. Gee, if I listened to this, I might have solved gluten intolerance problems long ago!

Food and medicine are interconnected in various, if not most, traditional healing systems. People for hundreds and thousands of years recognized this connection. That connection is being "discovered" again and touted by popular media - as in all the reports of the "healthiest foods" for you.

I suppose if I was using a food for purely medicinal purposes, say that prune getting you moving for example, I would say it is medicinal rather than food. But either way it is a gray-zone and you do the best you can.

FataMorgana

I haven't been on the Internet recently, and I'm just now responding to my "definition". It is the one used by the Herb Society of America by Deni Bown.

Herb Society of America

Definition of an herb
According to The Herb Society of America's New Encyclopedia of Herbs and Their Uses by Deni Bown:

"The term "herb" also has more than one definition. Botanists describe an herb as a small, seed bearing plant with fleshy, rather than woody, parts (from which we get the term "herbaceous"). In this book, the term refers to a far wider range of plants. In addition to herbaceous perennials, herbs include trees, shrubs, annuals, vines, and more primitive plants, such as ferns, mosses, algae, lichens, and fungi. They [herbs] are valued for their flavor, fragrance, medicinal and healthful qualities, economic and industrial uses, pesticidal properties, and coloring materials (dyes)."

Deni Bown, 2001.

Citation: Bown, Deni. The Herb Society of America New Encyclopedia of Herbs and
Their Uses. New York: Dorling Kindersley, 2001. p. 18

I've learned, that to me, an herb is anything that grows that isn't a vegetable or plain old grass!!! Yes, even the despised weed dandelion is an herb! My father complained of being the only kid on his block in Detroit being made to pick dandelion greens for salad. He was embarassed. Awhile ago, I told him his father was very smart, and told him about how healthy those greens were! I also told him about the roots. Like me, he doesn't see them the same! An herb can be culinary and medicinal all at once, or it can just be a thing of beauty- my daughter loves the yellow dandelion flowers and making wishes while blowing their seeds- it just depends. And if you open your mind a little farther, into TCM, some very unusual things are considered herbal! Or at least medicinal. The term can be very broad or narrow, depending on your view.

Frankly, ever since I found out, last year, that the banana tree was the largest "herb," I'm stuck with the same answer to the question, "What do you get when you cross an elephant with a rhino?" Ellifino?!

To less confuse this little brain, I'm living with multi-uses for one plant. Of course, do the bees, butterflies, and squirrels that use my plants for their own purposes agree with me? Thankfully, I think they don't worry about it as much as we do. lol

BTW, would you kill me if I mentioned I think barley is a grain? (am now whistling innocently away, hoping no one notices that's a definite, "duh, now, but doesn't answer the herb question.")

Oh yeah! Barley is a grain, no doubt about it. It's also a grass. and both the seed and the leaves can be used for assorted purposes.

Tomato can be called a fruit (of the plant), or a berry (which is a kind of fruit), or a vegetable.

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." Yet it comes under my umbrella of 'herb' as well as being a beautiful plant which some people regard as purely ornamental. Such people forget (or don't know) that 'stopping to smell the roses' is a herbal remedy!

Regardless of what part of the plant is used (leaves, stems, roots, seeds/grains, bark, flowers/blossoms/petals/stamens, fruits/berries), or what name you give these parts (tubors, rhizomes, roots - you get the idea) - they're still herbs, IMO. Or rather, the plant as a whole is.

OK. Challenge! Read the following and then tell me why Barley is NOT a herb!!

Culinary Uses: Barley is widely cultivated grain used as a food and in the brewing process. It is an additive for human and animal cereal foods. The seed can be fermented into sourdough and many other fermented foods such as tempeh and miso. It also makes a flavourful flour for use in baking breads and muffins. The seed can be sprouted and added to salads or the sprouted seed juiced and the juice drunk as a health-food drink. Barley is a common ingredient in soups and stews. It is also an ingredient in muesli and other breakfast cereal mixes. Malt is obtained by sprouting the whole seed and then roasting it. The seed is then ground into a flour and boiled in water. The resulting liquid is very sweet and can be used in making beer or other drinks, and as a nutritious sweetener in various foods. Barley is sold in several forms, the most common being pearl barley, which has been processed by being husked, steamed and polished. The flaked form is often used to make a breakfast cereal, similar to porridge. The roasted (unsprouted) seed is used as a coffee, and as a salt substitute.
Medicinal Uses: A mucilaginous substance is obtained when hulled barley (pearl barley) is cooked, which is a good nutritional source for throat or stomach problems. The demulcent properties of cooked barley is useful in external treatment of sores, fevers, diarrhoea, gout, and tumours. Used as a tonic during convalescence. Useful in combating stress and fatigue. treatment of Barley shoots are used to dry mother's milk, to improve poor digestion, loss of appetite, and hepatitis. It is often recommended as a treatment for osteoarthritis, gastric ulcers and other inflammatory diseases, and to treat infections of the urinary tract. It can be given to children to treat fevers. It is also used to treat minor infections, diarrhoea, arthritis, anaemia, hepatitis, obesity, hypertension, diabetes, peptic ulcer, hypoglycaemia, bruises, dry coughs, burns, constipation, emphysema, gangrene, poison oak rash. rheumatism, haemorrhoids, prostate difficulties, premenstrual syndrome, muscle debility, and toxicity from lead, mercury, and other heavy metals. It has been shown to lower blood cholesterol and triglyceride levels and to regulate blood sugar levels, and is claimed to be protective against the risk of bowel cancer. Barley contains potassium, calcium, magnesium, iron, copper, phosphorus, manganese, zinc, beta carotene, B1, B2, B6, C, folic acid, and pantothenic acid, making it one of the most nourishing foodstuffs known to man. It also contains high levels of chlorophyll, a substance said to inhibit cancer, and several antioxidants, thought to help prevent many degenerative diseases, such as cancer, heart disease, stroke and premature ageing. Made into a poultice and applied externally, barley has demulcent properties which make it helpful in soothing and reducing inflammation in sores and swellings. A hot poultice eases stiff and painful joints and draws the poison from boils, abscesses, stings, bites and infected cuts. A cold poultice relieves swellings and helps with weeping eczema and other itchy skin conditions.

Medicinal Actions: Demulcent, abortifacient, diuretic, emollient, expectorant, febrifuge, galactofuge, hypoglycaemic, digestive, carminative, nutritive, anti-inflammatory, stomachic.

Other Uses: Barley water is a skin freshener for normal skin, cleanses and softens skin.

Wow. Not sure of the herb/not herb thing, but barley sure is a wonder food! We've always just used it to make soup a little thicker/heartier. Guess we'll have to start looking for recipes to eat lots more of it! Thanks for the great info.
Edie

"To use another example, I've listened to people leap up to correct someone who referred to a tomato as a 'vegetable'. Isn't it silly to have an argument over 'fruit', 'vegetable', etc.? (It's a berry, but who honestly cares?)"

I wonder if they will ever breed blueberries to be as large as tomatoes?

:o/

"I wonder if they will ever breed blueberries to be as large as tomatoes?"

They're probably working on it!! They succeeded with tomatoes, after all! And apples and many other things. Look what they did with carrots! And now there's a purple cauliflower. I've never tried that, but I've often wondered whether it tastes the same as a white cauliflower.

The thing with tomato-sized blueberries would be that you'd probably HAVE to stop at one!! A daunting thought.

As big as tomatoes but with no flavor! Look at what they have done to the strawberry. Have you ever eaten wild strawberries? Ambrosia! Those strawberry things in supermarkets that are as big as tangerines taste only vaguely strawberry-like.

And seedless watermelons? Blah! Pink, wet, sweetened cardboard. Give me the old-fashioned seeded kind any day!

FataMorgana

The ironic thing is that these fruits and veggies have been bred that way ON PURPOSE! It's all consumer driven, though they've been driving the wrong way in my opinion (and many of yours', too!) Bigger strawberries, blemish-free tomatoes, seedless watermelon, etc. Faster, bigger, disease and pest resistant, longer shelf-life, on and on. All those qualities are important, but why does a tomato that lasts several weeks on the shelf have to be mealy, tasteless, hard, and bereft of any tomato aroma? I'd rather NOT have the tomato, thank you.

Much (not all) of the improvements are made very much at the sacrifice of flavor, or other qualities such as aroma. Selective breeding has its flaws, that's for sure.

By the way, I've tasted the purple cauliflower....raw. Very nice and spicy. I've not had any steamed, but expect that it would be just fine. The orange cauliflower is good, too.

Yeah, it's a shame that flavor and other culinary qualities aren't often very high on the priority list for certain plant breeders. Strawberries are a really good example -- if you read a commercial strawberry catalog, the qualities that are promoted to growers are high lignin and cellulose content for firm berries (lignin + cellulose = wood for those who haven't had basic botany in a while). The catalogs barely even mention flavor any more.

But, some things will surprise you, too. 'Grafitti' purple cauliflower and 'Cheddar' orange cauliflower both have excellent flavor, and make such pretty dishes. The purple ones make especially nice pickles, turning the brine a lovely bright fuchsia color.

Well, tomatoes and strawberries might have suffered by the 'improvements', but I think by and large, the improvements have been quite good. I wouldn't like to eat one of the 'original' apples; and if you've ever seen a lemon grown from the original rootstock, you'd offer up thanks for the new grafted varieties!

There is the issue of safety, too. Most green leafy vegetables contain a certain level of oxalic acid (the same stuff that makes rhubarb leaves toxic). Even your common lettuce. Over the years, these have been 'improved' to reduce the amount of oxalic acid - hence also the bitterness - which makes them nicer to eat, but safer. In the good old days when people relied on wild foods for their greens (dandelion, sorrels, chenapodiums etc) they were at higher risk of oxalic acid poisoning. Such things are still eaten, of course, but not in such great quantities, and not usually regularly.

So it's not all bad news.

I'm not throwing the baby out with the bath water! There have been some very wonderful improvements to food plants made throughout the history of agriculture. Look at corn (Zea mays to be clear). A wonderful foodstuff totally created through generations of selective breeding of plants by the indigenous people of North America. What we have today is so different from the wild Mexican grass scientists think corn originally derived from.

My complaints are the breeding of food varieties for shelf-life and not flavor, for the lack of seeds over flavor, in creating franken-foods which have been genetically modified in a lab, and so on. I appreciate the variety, quality, and flavors in our food plants breed by our ancestors!

FataMorgana